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The "New Elite"
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Barrett Offline
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Post: #1
The "New Elite"
Thought the Parliament--with most of its members automatically qualified as "New Elite" as a result of having gone to Rice--would find this article interesting and/or provocative.

Washington Post Article
10-28-2010 05:11 PM
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Post: #2
RE: The "New Elite"
(10-28-2010 05:11 PM)Barrett Wrote:  Thought the Parliament--with most of its members automatically qualified as "New Elite" as a result of having gone to Rice--would find this article interesting and/or provocative.

Washington Post Article

Interesting, but I don't think I qualify as an Elite (old or new) solely on the basis of having gone to Rice (not on either coast), and I certainly don't qualify on the basis of family background, income or area code.
10-28-2010 06:26 PM
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RE: The "New Elite"
I'll react more later - maybe - but the first thing that strikes me about it is the extremely limited set of examples that he points to. I think his New Elite is just a rehash of the old elite. By his definition, I certainly wouldn't cause him to get excited if he saw my marriage announcement. And wow - I know who Jimmie Johnson is, so I'm definitely not new elite.

He may have a kernel of truth in there, but the conclusions are a stretch.
10-28-2010 08:27 PM
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Post: #4
RE: The "New Elite"
I don't think I qualify, and I have no interest in doing so.

These are the people who are screwing up the world.
(This post was last modified: 10-29-2010 05:47 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
10-28-2010 08:53 PM
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Caelligh Offline
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RE: The "New Elite"
Drew Carey.

That is all.
10-28-2010 11:14 PM
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JSA Offline
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Post: #6
RE: The "New Elite"
"The members of the New Elite may love America, but, increasingly, they are not of it. "

Then what are they of, praytell?
10-29-2010 07:46 AM
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Post: #7
RE: The "New Elite"
(10-29-2010 07:46 AM)JSA Wrote:  "The members of the New Elite may love America, but, increasingly, they are not of it. "

Then what are they of, praytell?

Yeah, that was my thought. I find this sort of sociological analysis interesting, but I could do without the "real Americans" spin. But the guy is from the Heritage Foundation, so given that, it is more neutral than expected.

Not to bring Palin into it, but the problem with the definition she and others seem to use for "real Americans" is that it excludes the majority of Americans. Guess we are "fake Americans".
10-29-2010 08:22 AM
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JustAnotherAustinOwl Offline
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Post: #8
RE: The "New Elite"
(10-28-2010 05:11 PM)Barrett Wrote:  Thought the Parliament--with most of its members automatically qualified as "New Elite" as a result of having gone to Rice--would find this article interesting and/or provocative.

Washington Post Article


Are we sure Rice qualifies? In terms of academics, sure, but in terms of connections and entry into the 'elite' I'm not convinced.
10-29-2010 08:23 AM
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Post: #9
RE: The "New Elite"
If you're reduced to using wedding announcements as evidence supporting your argument, you've gone off the rails. And how many times did he plug his book (including a handy link to Amazon).
10-29-2010 08:38 AM
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Barrett Offline
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Post: #10
RE: The "New Elite"
(10-29-2010 08:23 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  Are we sure Rice qualifies? In terms of academics, sure, but in terms of connections and entry into the 'elite' I'm not convinced.

I think this is a good question, but I guess I thought maybe that was the author's point: that the traditional entry into the "old elite" was based on money and connections, and that the "new elite" was a group based more on merit/education. I read this article as a continuation of the author's controversial book from the 1990s, The Bell Curve. (The authors of that book actually spoke at Rice in the mid-90s about the book, and I remember there being some low-level protest of that talk.)

Anyway, I never read that book, but it was my understanding that its basic premise was that society was increasing its geographic mobility. So if you were the smartest guy in your hick town, you had more of a chance to leave for the big city than you would have, say, 100 years ago. And the best and brightest were more likely (and able) to move around, and they were all basically going to the same places (the same schools, the same urban areas, the same jobs at the same prestigious firms). The result was that they were then mingling more, and marrying, and having children--thereby joining their DNA/values to perpetuate more smart people who, in turn, continue to marry other smart people. So the idea (as I understand it, and like I said, I never read the book) is that the dumb were going to continue to stay dumb (maybe even get dumber, because there was less chance to marry someone smart because those people are moving away), and the smart were going to continue to shore up their eliteness.

Anyway, back to the article, I do think a place like Rice qualifies as a breeding ground for intelligent people, whether you call them "new elite" or not. I once heard a stat (maybe apocryphal) that the phenomenon of Rice people marrying fellow alumni is more prevalent than at any other school (alumni marrying alumni). Now, given Rice's location, I doubt there is a high instance of Rice people marrying Ivy Leaguers or people from "peer" institutions (at least comparatively), but I guess Richard Murray would say that increased mobility means that the chance of that happening is greater than it used to be.

Anecdotally, I married a Rice alum, and the wives of our suite came from: Rice, Rice, Mount Holyoke, Berkeley. One could speculate about the ethos toward education in such households. Incidentally, out of the four roommates, three had gone to private schools: St. John's, St. John's, and Georgetown Prep. (But we all met our wives in college or after.)

Where I am confused about this "new elite" idea is the fact it seems to exclude people based on schools. I used to work at a big, international law firm where there were a lot of graduates from top ten and top twenty schools. However, there were also some graduates from places like Baylor Law and UH Law (neither in the top 50, as far as I know). Yet if those people made partner and ended up living in River Oaks, listening to NPR, and reading the Sunday Times, are they not part of the "new elite" as perceived by Richard Murray? Or are they excluded because of their schooling when they were 23 years old? I fail to see what makes them different from someone who went to Exeter/Harvard/Yale Law and ends up in the exact same position at the exact same law firm?
(This post was last modified: 10-29-2010 10:14 AM by Barrett.)
10-29-2010 10:03 AM
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JSA Offline
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Post: #11
RE: The "New Elite"
(10-29-2010 10:03 AM)Barrett Wrote:  
(10-29-2010 08:23 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  Are we sure Rice qualifies? In terms of academics, sure, but in terms of connections and entry into the 'elite' I'm not convinced.

I think this is a good question, but I guess I thought maybe that was the author's point: that the traditional entry into the "old elite" was based on money and connections, and that the "new elite" was a group based more on merit/education. I read this article as a continuation of the author's controversial book from the 1990s, The Bell Curve. (The authors of that book actually spoke at Rice in the mid-90s about the book, and I remember there being some low-level protest of that talk.)

Anyway, I never read that book, but it was my understanding that its basic premise was that society was increasing its geographic mobility. So if you were the smartest guy in your hick town, you had more of a chance to leave for the big city than you would have, say, 100 years ago. And the best and brightest were more likely (and able) to move around, and they were all basically going to the same places (the same schools, the same urban areas, the same jobs at the same prestigious firms). The result was that they were then mingling more, and marrying, and having children--thereby joining their DNA/values to perpetuate more smart people who, in turn, continue to marry other smart people. So the idea (as I understand it, and like I said, I never read the book) is that the dumb were going to continue to stay dumb (maybe even get dumber, because there was less chance to marry someone smart because those people are moving away), and the smart were going to continue to shore up their eliteness.

Anyway, back to the article, I do think a place like Rice qualifies as a breeding ground for intelligent people, whether you call them "new elite" or not. I once heard a stat (maybe apocryphal) that the phenomenon of Rice people marrying fellow alumni is more prevalent than at any other school (alumni marrying alumni). Now, given Rice's location, I doubt there is a high instance of Rice people marrying Ivy Leaguers or people from "peer" institutions (at least comparatively), but I guess Richard Murray would say that increased mobility means that the chance of that happening is greater than it used to be.

Anecdotally, I married a Rice alum, and the wives of our suite came from: Rice, Rice, Mount Holyoke, Berkeley. One could speculate about the ethos toward education in such households. Incidentally, out of the four roommates, three had gone to private schools: St. John's, St. John's, and Georgetown Prep. (But we all met our wives in college or after.)

Where I am confused about this "new elite" idea is the fact it seems to exclude people based on schools. I used to work at a big, international law firm where there were a lot of graduates from top ten and top twenty schools. However, there were also some graduates from places like Baylor Law and UH Law (neither in the top 50, as far as I know). Yet if those people made partner and ended up living in River Oaks, listening to NPR, and reading the Sunday Times, are they not part of the "new elite" as perceived by Richard Murray? Or are they excluded because of their schooling when they were 23 years old? I fail to see what makes them different from someone who went to Exeter/Harvard/Yale Law and ends up in the exact same position at the exact same law firm?

Interesting points. I remember reading Mills' "The Power Elite" in Chandler Davidson's Political Sociology course in the late 70s. I predicted that there would still be an elite in the future (by definition, you will have people in the upper percentile of whatever measure of elitism you're employing), but that it would start to be drawn from other sources besides the Ivy League schools. I think that's occurring but probably not to the extent I thought it would.

I wonder if your points about mobility don't apply to athletics. I heard Dickie Maegle say that when he was in high school, playing for a school like Michigan would have been like playing on Mars. Now Texas' recruits are playing all over the country. The number of top 25 teams hasn't changed, obviously, but the composition certainly has.
10-29-2010 10:29 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #12
RE: The "New Elite"
(10-28-2010 11:14 PM)Caelligh Wrote:  Drew Carey.

That is all.

Drew Carey, John Kerry, all the same.
10-29-2010 01:00 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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RE: The "New Elite"
(10-29-2010 07:46 AM)JSA Wrote:  "The members of the New Elite may love America, but, increasingly, they are not of it. "

Then what are they of, praytell?

I think any "elite" is above it all.
10-29-2010 01:00 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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RE: The "New Elite"
(10-29-2010 08:22 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  Not to bring Palin into it, but the problem with the definition she and others seem to use for "real Americans" is that it excludes the majority of Americans.

I don't know what her definition is. Can you give a link or at least an explanation?
10-29-2010 01:01 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #15
RE: The "New Elite"
(10-29-2010 10:03 AM)Barrett Wrote:  I once heard a stat (maybe apocryphal) that the phenomenon of Rice people marrying fellow alumni is more prevalent than at any other school (alumni marrying alumni).

Nerds marrying nerds? Hooda thunk it?
10-29-2010 01:03 PM
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Post: #16
RE: The "New Elite"
Excuse me, i have gone over the article (I'll admit, somewhat quickly) several times, and I don't find the phrase "real americans". Maybe it's there and I just keep missing it. Regular americans is there, as is mainstream americans.

In any case, I think all three refer to to the majority of americans who not in the Elite, as defined by anybody. I think the New Black Panther party and the Tea Party both consider themselves to be be non-elite, real Americans, as do the "ignorant hicks" that Bill Mahre says makes up half the country (the conservative half).

Real americans = mainstrean americans = regular americans = nonelite americans. No need to pick on a word and parse it to death.

I was the smartest kid in my hick town, and moved away, and then moved back. I don't know what MMA is, and if Jimmy Johnson is the race driver, i don't care. Most of my neighbors did not go to college or they went to a non-elite school like UNT or TCU, but they are mostly pretty good people. I consider myself and my neighbors to be real, regular, mainstrean, nonelite americans. Maybe if my Dad had had money and connections, i would have gotten into Harvard or Yale, and become an elite, but really, I am happy I didn't.
10-29-2010 01:24 PM
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Post: #17
RE: The "New Elite"
(10-29-2010 01:01 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(10-29-2010 08:22 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  Not to bring Palin into it, but the problem with the definition she and others seem to use for "real Americans" is that it excludes the majority of Americans.

I don't know what her definition is. Can you give a link or at least an explanation?

Annoyingly, she doesn’t seem to have released a white paper on the subject. So I emailed her PAC and asked for a definition. I’ll let you know what she says.

During the campaign at one point she implied Real Americans live only in small towns, but walked that back later, I guess someone told her the overwhelming majority of voters don’t live in small towns.

I find the whole concept of defining some Americans as “real” and others not offensive, so I don’t use it. The whole point of a pluralistic, democratic society is that we’re different but all citizens of the same country at the end of the day whether we like it or not.

But while we await Sarah’s response, I guess we can look at people and groups conservatives and Republicans have declared not to be Real Americans.

Rich Bond announced at a Republican Convention that “we are the Real Americans, they are not,” they presumably being Democrats, so Democrats aren’t Real Americans. Liberals hate America, as we all know, so they are not Real Americans either. Ditto for people that drink lattes or eat arugula. People from NYC and San Francisco are not Real Americans.* People who aren’t from “the heartland” aren’t Real Americans. People from “the coasts” aren’t Real Americans. Atheists aren’t Real Americans. Muslims aren’t Real Americans. Generally speaking, non-Christians aren’t Real Americans. But Jews have ambiguous status due to Real American’s love of Israel blowing up Arabs and Muslims. Arabs aren’t Real Americans, with special exceptions for Kasey Kasum and Danny Thomas. Many fake Americans feel that it has been implied that Real Americans are white, but Real Americans take great offense at this. The fact that they are all white except for Clarence Thomas and Alan Keyes is a coincidence. Homosexuals are not Real Americans, unless they are neocons. Neither are people who drive Volvos or hybrids. People who watch soccer are not Real Americans.

Strangely, I’ve not heard that vegetarians are not Real Americans. That surprises me, because my family is vegetarian and we definitely hate America and want the terrorists to win.

OK, I’m being flippant. But I’ve heard some variation of all of these from various Republicans. It’s a staple of their political rhetoric, and IMHO, an offensive one, though sometimes so absurd that it’s hard to take too seriously.


*Classic daily show moment: correspondent asks a guy from a small town in Alaska what makes them “Real Americans” as opposed to people in places like Manhattan. Answer:”We remember and understand what happened on 9/11.”
10-29-2010 02:28 PM
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Post: #18
RE: The "New Elite"
(10-29-2010 02:28 PM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  
(10-29-2010 01:01 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(10-29-2010 08:22 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  Not to bring Palin into it, but the problem with the definition she and others seem to use for "real Americans" is that it excludes the majority of Americans.

I don't know what her definition is. Can you give a link or at least an explanation?

Annoyingly, she doesn’t seem to have released a white paper on the subject. So I emailed her PAC and asked for a definition. I’ll let you know what she says.

During the campaign at one point she implied Real Americans live only in small towns, but walked that back later, I guess someone told her the overwhelming majority of voters don’t live in small towns.

I find the whole concept of defining some Americans as “real” and others not offensive, so I don’t use it. The whole point of a pluralistic, democratic society is that we’re different but all citizens of the same country at the end of the day whether we like it or not.

But while we await Sarah’s response, I guess we can look at people and groups conservatives and Republicans have declared not to be Real Americans.

Rich Bond announced at a Republican Convention that “we are the Real Americans, they are not,” they presumably being Democrats, so Democrats aren’t Real Americans. Liberals hate America, as we all know, so they are not Real Americans either. Ditto for people that drink lattes or eat arugula. People from NYC and San Francisco are not Real Americans.* People who aren’t from “the heartland” aren’t Real Americans. People from “the coasts” aren’t Real Americans. Atheists aren’t Real Americans. Muslims aren’t Real Americans. Generally speaking, non-Christians aren’t Real Americans. But Jews have ambiguous status due to Real American’s love of Israel blowing up Arabs and Muslims. Arabs aren’t Real Americans, with special exceptions for Kasey Kasum and Danny Thomas. Many fake Americans feel that it has been implied that Real Americans are white, but Real Americans take great offense at this. The fact that they are all white except for Clarence Thomas and Alan Keyes is a coincidence. Homosexuals are not Real Americans, unless they are neocons. Neither are people who drive Volvos or hybrids. People who watch soccer are not Real Americans.

Strangely, I’ve not heard that vegetarians are not Real Americans. That surprises me, because my family is vegetarian and we definitely hate America and want the terrorists to win.

OK, I’m being flippant. But I’ve heard some variation of all of these from various Republicans. It’s a staple of their political rhetoric, and IMHO, an offensive one, though sometimes so absurd that it’s hard to take too seriously.


*Classic daily show moment: correspondent asks a guy from a small town in Alaska what makes them “Real Americans” as opposed to people in places like Manhattan. Answer:”We remember and understand what happened on 9/11.”

From your earlier, post, it seemed you had a clear idea of what her definition would be. Why not try to articulate what you think her definition is? You seemed to know what you meant, tell us. Waiting for a response from her PAC seems kind of like you can't back up what you are implying. I am serious - I want to know either what Palin's definition of "real american" is OR what you think it is, and why. You brought it up.

You quote one named person, Rich Bond (who is he?), and the rest is just riffing on stereotypes.

I. too, am tired of being stereotyped due to my political beliefs. I am tired of being classified as racist (some of this came across in your rant), or stupid, like Mahre said, or "clinging" to something or the other(yes, I have guns, but precious little religion).

I have or have had plenty of interaction and friendships with people of Arab descent, homosexuals of both sexes, all races, white collar, blue collar, no collar, no shirt. Maybe in some stereotypes that means I am not a "real" conservative, but in my mind, I am. That doesn't imply I think liberals are not real Americans, just that I think they are wrong on a lot of issues.

I don't hear flippant - I hear bitter. I hear anger, maybe even hatred.

I don't think there is any one definition of "real" american, anymore than there is of a "real" man or a "real" woman, or for that matter, of a "real" Owl fan.

Seems odd to despise people as narrow-minded for having other concepts. Sometimes it seems that the definition of broad-minded is to think one way and no other.

I, too, hear characterizations from non-Republicans that I find offensive. Very offensive, and very personal. Tired of it. Wierd, isn't it, that it goes both ways.
10-29-2010 05:05 PM
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Barrett Offline
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Post: #19
RE: The "New Elite"
I hear what you're saying, OO. But I will just say that, over the past two years in particular, I have heard a lot of rhetoric speaking in terms of "real America" and "real Americans," and that rhetoric--at least in my perception--has come primarily from Republicans and the right. In fact, it would almost seem odd to me if I were to hear a speech by San Francisco's Nancy Pelosi in which she denounced a group of conservatives as not being "real Americans." (Maybe she has; all I'm saying is that it would subvert my perception.)

Rhetoric that seeks to marginalize the opposition itself, rather than simply tackling the merits of the opposition's position, is a distraction and counterproductive. I think most would agree with that. I know it happens from both sides, but I feel like I hear it more from one side. To the extent that liberals might call conservatives out on it (when it happens), it seems fair--obviously so long as the calling-out is limited to the practice and not the person.
10-29-2010 05:39 PM
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Post: #20
RE: The "New Elite"
(10-29-2010 05:39 PM)Barrett Wrote:  I hear what you're saying, OO. But I will just say that, over the past two years in particular, I have heard a lot of rhetoric speaking in terms of "real America" and "real Americans," and that rhetoric--at least in my perception--has come primarily from Republicans and the right. In fact, it would almost seem odd to me if I were to hear a speech by San Francisco's Nancy Pelosi in which she denounced a group of conservatives as not being "real Americans." (Maybe she has; all I'm saying is that it would subvert my perception.)

Rhetoric that seeks to marginalize the opposition itself, rather than simply tackling the merits of the opposition's position, is a distraction and counterproductive. I think most would agree with that. I know it happens from both sides, but I feel like I hear it more from one side. To the extent that liberals might call conservatives out on it (when it happens), it seems fair--obviously so long as the calling-out is limited to the practice and not the person.

Maybe it passes in one ear and out the other, but I remember very little discussion of 'real" americans - just a lot of arguement over who cares about the middle class and who is racist.

I guess it could depend on which end of the pointing finger you are on -
I tend to notice the comments about racists, nazis, yahoos, ignorant, hicks, clingers, etc, because they are pointed at ME by leftists.

IAC, there is no one definition (IMO) of "real" american, and I still want to hear Palin's definition, if it exists.
(This post was last modified: 10-29-2010 05:57 PM by OptimisticOwl.)
10-29-2010 05:56 PM
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