(08-12-2010 10:24 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(08-12-2010 10:15 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  

(08-12-2010 10:05 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(08-12-2010 09:53 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-12-2010 09:44 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  Not that I agree with the ruling, but Judge Walker based his ruling on previous rulings from the Supreme Court that marriage is a "fundamental constitutional right" and that “That the majority of California voters supported Proposition 8 is irrelevant, as fundamental rights may not be submitted to [a] vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections.”
With that said, gay marriage will be legal in this country eventually. I don't agree with courts getting involved, but public opinion has moved too much over the past 20 years and will continue to trend in its favor over the next generation. It might be 5 years, or 10 years, or 20 years, but it will happen.

Agree.

Ditto...I go on record as saying I love the gays. I have had numerous business and personal relationships with both gay men and women over the past 30 years or so...and I have never been treated but with the utmost respect and cordial friendship by any of them. I can not say the same from my encounters in the straight world. I see them as individuals, not as some collective with an agenda.

I count gays and lesbians as some of my closest friends. My professional mentor is a gay man who has lived in a long term relationship with his partner for a decade. They are raising 2 wonderful kids who were abandoned by their drug addict mother. Those who see LGBTs as just the flamboyant guys in leather chaps and boas at gay pride parades just don't know any gays or lesbians....or at least don't know them very well.

With that said, the courts should stay out of the gay marriage issue. Let the people come to the conclusion organically.

Yes...in addition....flamboyant gays are viewed negatively by the vast majority of the gay community...just as guys wearing wife beater shirts and sporting mullets are viewed negatively in the straight world.

Somethings just do not need to be seen in public!

Much more so in the past decade as the gay population has felt more comfortable in mainstream society.

I would like to know if this judge cast his vote. Would he have been just fine with a vote of the people if the majority had voted with him. This is a personal thing to him and I'd be willing to bet he voted. If he voted, all his arguments would be meaningless, coming from him.

(08-12-2010 10:46 PM)Paul M Wrote:  I would like to know if this judge cast his vote. Would he have been just fine with a vote of the people if the majority had voted with him. This is a personal thing to him and I'd be willing to bet he voted. If he voted, all his arguments would be meaningless, coming from him.

To deem this a "fundamental right" is where he is going activism on us. It is however a "fundamental right" to own a gun, but there are many restrictions in place that can vary from place to place.

It's the correct ruling under the equal protection clause. To hold otherwise would be to say that it's okay for the majority to discriminate against anyone in marriage. If the majority voted on banning straight-marriage, interracial-marriage, or christian-marriages, it would be legal under the prop 8 argument. It's not judicial activism, it's the only logical ruling a judge could make.

IF there's any equal protection issue, civil unions take care of it.

(08-13-2010 07:11 AM)Paul M Wrote:  IF there's any equal protection issue, civil unions take care of it.

That's an interesting argument too. If it were exactly the same as marriage but with the "civil union" moniker, that might possibly be okay, but it would probably be overturned for the same reason civil rights overturned "separate but equal" for schools. The argument against it would be that a civil union even with all the same benefits isn't marriage and therefore they're denied equal protection of law.

(08-13-2010 07:34 AM)Jugnaut Wrote:  

(08-13-2010 07:11 AM)Paul M Wrote:  IF there's any equal protection issue, civil unions take care of it.

That's an interesting argument too. If it were exactly the same as marriage but with the "civil union" moniker, that might possibly be okay, but it would probably be overturned for the same reason civil rights overturned "separate but equal" for schools. The argument against it would be that a civil union even with all the same benefits isn't marriage and therefore they're denied equal protection of law.

In order to have relief, there has to be harm. There is no harm.

(08-12-2010 09:53 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-12-2010 09:44 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  

(08-12-2010 06:21 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  What's the point of voting any more?

Not that I agree with the ruling, but Judge Walker based his ruling on previous rulings from the Supreme Court that marriage is a "fundamental constitutional right" and that “That the majority of California voters supported Proposition 8 is irrelevant, as fundamental rights may not be submitted to [a] vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections.”
With that said, gay marriage will be legal in this country eventually. I don't agree with courts getting involved, but public opinion has moved too much over the past 20 years and will continue to trend in its favor over the next generation. It might be 5 years, or 10 years, or 20 years, but it will happen.

Agree.

I don't. Marriage, IMO, isn't a Constitutional right, at least one explicitly stated in the Constitution. It has nothing to do with the government. It is not, however, a Constitutional right, or implied power, for the federal government to come in and deny a gay couple the right to enter into a contract with one another.

(08-13-2010 08:19 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

(08-13-2010 07:34 AM)Jugnaut Wrote:  

(08-13-2010 07:11 AM)Paul M Wrote:  IF there's any equal protection issue, civil unions take care of it.

That's an interesting argument too. If it were exactly the same as marriage but with the "civil union" moniker, that might possibly be okay, but it would probably be overturned for the same reason civil rights overturned "separate but equal" for schools. The argument against it would be that a civil union even with all the same benefits isn't marriage and therefore they're denied equal protection of law.

In order to have relief, there has to be harm. There is no harm.

Kinda like to have a crime there must be a victim?

(08-13-2010 08:50 AM)Rebel Wrote:  

(08-12-2010 09:53 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-12-2010 09:44 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  

(08-12-2010 06:21 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  What's the point of voting any more?

Not that I agree with the ruling, but Judge Walker based his ruling on previous rulings from the Supreme Court that marriage is a "fundamental constitutional right" and that “That the majority of California voters supported Proposition 8 is irrelevant, as fundamental rights may not be submitted to [a] vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections.”
With that said, gay marriage will be legal in this country eventually. I don't agree with courts getting involved, but public opinion has moved too much over the past 20 years and will continue to trend in its favor over the next generation. It might be 5 years, or 10 years, or 20 years, but it will happen.

Agree.

I don't. Marriage, IMO, isn't a Constitutional right, at least one explicitly stated in the Constitution. It has nothing to do with the government. It is not, however, a Constitutional right, or implied power, for the federal government to come in and deny a gay couple the right to enter into a contract with one another.

I don't think he was agreeing with ruling but rather the last part of my statement that gay marriage will eventually be legal throughout this country through the shift of public opinion over the last 20 years and its continuation throughout the next generation

(08-13-2010 11:30 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  

(08-13-2010 08:50 AM)Rebel Wrote:  

(08-12-2010 09:53 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-12-2010 09:44 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  

(08-12-2010 06:21 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  What's the point of voting any more?

Not that I agree with the ruling, but Judge Walker based his ruling on previous rulings from the Supreme Court that marriage is a "fundamental constitutional right" and that “That the majority of California voters supported Proposition 8 is irrelevant, as fundamental rights may not be submitted to [a] vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections.”
With that said, gay marriage will be legal in this country eventually. I don't agree with courts getting involved, but public opinion has moved too much over the past 20 years and will continue to trend in its favor over the next generation. It might be 5 years, or 10 years, or 20 years, but it will happen.

Agree.

I don't. Marriage, IMO, isn't a Constitutional right, at least one explicitly stated in the Constitution. It has nothing to do with the government. It is not, however, a Constitutional right, or implied power, for the federal government to come in and deny a gay couple the right to enter into a contract with one another.

I don't think he was agreeing with ruling but rather the last part of my statement that gay marriage will eventually be legal throughout this country through the shift of public opinion over the last 20 years and its continuation throughout the next generation

Exactly. If you have teen-aged or older kids, talk to them about this. I read an article which said that to today's teens, "gay is the new left-handed." They look at being gay the same way that we looked at being left-handed. I know my son does, and that is a good thing. When they are the main bloc of voters, these changes will happen--if not before.

(08-14-2010 06:42 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-13-2010 11:30 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  

(08-13-2010 08:50 AM)Rebel Wrote:  

(08-12-2010 09:53 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-12-2010 09:44 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  Not that I agree with the ruling, but Judge Walker based his ruling on previous rulings from the Supreme Court that marriage is a "fundamental constitutional right" and that “That the majority of California voters supported Proposition 8 is irrelevant, as fundamental rights may not be submitted to [a] vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections.”
With that said, gay marriage will be legal in this country eventually. I don't agree with courts getting involved, but public opinion has moved too much over the past 20 years and will continue to trend in its favor over the next generation. It might be 5 years, or 10 years, or 20 years, but it will happen.

Agree.

I don't. Marriage, IMO, isn't a Constitutional right, at least one explicitly stated in the Constitution. It has nothing to do with the government. It is not, however, a Constitutional right, or implied power, for the federal government to come in and deny a gay couple the right to enter into a contract with one another.

I don't think he was agreeing with ruling but rather the last part of my statement that gay marriage will eventually be legal throughout this country through the shift of public opinion over the last 20 years and its continuation throughout the next generation

Exactly. If you have teen-aged or older kids, talk to them about this. I read an article which said that to today's teens, "gay is the new left-handed." They look at being gay the same way that we looked at being left-handed. I know my son does, and that is a good thing. When they are the main bloc of voters, these changes will happen--if not before.

My daughter is college Senior this year...I can tell you that she harbors none of the homophobic BS that I had at her age.

(08-14-2010 06:50 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(08-14-2010 06:42 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-13-2010 11:30 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  

(08-13-2010 08:50 AM)Rebel Wrote:  

(08-12-2010 09:53 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Agree.

I don't. Marriage, IMO, isn't a Constitutional right, at least one explicitly stated in the Constitution. It has nothing to do with the government. It is not, however, a Constitutional right, or implied power, for the federal government to come in and deny a gay couple the right to enter into a contract with one another.

I don't think he was agreeing with ruling but rather the last part of my statement that gay marriage will eventually be legal throughout this country through the shift of public opinion over the last 20 years and its continuation throughout the next generation

Exactly. If you have teen-aged or older kids, talk to them about this. I read an article which said that to today's teens, "gay is the new left-handed." They look at being gay the same way that we looked at being left-handed. I know my son does, and that is a good thing. When they are the main bloc of voters, these changes will happen--if not before.

My daughter is college Senior this year...I can tell you that she harbors none of the homophobic BS that I had at her age.

Even the people my age that were against gay marriage 5 years ago have pretty much gotten over it. I can only think of two of my friends who are even opposed to it at all, and I'm pretty sure if it was legalized, they still wouldn't care too much. I like the "gay is the new left handed". Pretty accurate. Even 20-somethings who claim to be really deeply religious couldn't care less.

(08-14-2010 06:57 AM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  Even the people my age that were against gay marriage 5 years ago have pretty much gotten over it. I can only think of two of my friends who are even opposed to it at all, and I'm pretty sure if it was legalized, they still wouldn't care too much. I like the "gay is the new left handed". Pretty accurate. Even 20-somethings who claim to be really deeply religious couldn't care less.

Yet in vote after vote, in state after state people are voting against redefining marriage.

The straw man that is thrown up is the term 'homophobia' it's like 'islamophobia' or the deluge of 'racism' clams we see. It's nothing more than a quick way to shut people up with whom you disagree.

(08-15-2010 12:31 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(08-14-2010 06:57 AM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  Even the people my age that were against gay marriage 5 years ago have pretty much gotten over it. I can only think of two of my friends who are even opposed to it at all, and I'm pretty sure if it was legalized, they still wouldn't care too much. I like the "gay is the new left handed". Pretty accurate. Even 20-somethings who claim to be really deeply religious couldn't care less.

Yet in vote after vote, in state after state people are voting against redefining marriage.

The straw man that is thrown up is the term 'homophobia' it's like 'islamophobia' or the deluge of 'racism' clams we see. It's nothing more than a quick way to shut people up with whom you disagree.

Yet, in vote after vote, in state after state, and nationally, the numbers are changing radically against the baby boomers, and the "Christian" Right.... my generation is overwhelming FOR gay rights, and gay marriage. It doesn't matter how much the Catholic Church, or the LDS protests...even mainstream Protestant denominations are swinging FOR marriage.

It takes time... but it's coming, and there's nothing any of you can REALLY do to stop it. I'm just hoping it's sooner rather than later.

(08-15-2010 12:31 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(08-14-2010 06:57 AM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  Even the people my age that were against gay marriage 5 years ago have pretty much gotten over it. I can only think of two of my friends who are even opposed to it at all, and I'm pretty sure if it was legalized, they still wouldn't care too much. I like the "gay is the new left handed". Pretty accurate. Even 20-somethings who claim to be really deeply religious couldn't care less.

Yet in vote after vote, in state after state people are voting against redefining marriage.

The straw man that is thrown up is the term 'homophobia' it's like 'islamophobia' or the deluge of 'racism' clams we see. It's nothing more than a quick way to shut people up with whom you disagree.

Those in favor of Gay Marriage nationally have risen from 10 percent in 1990 to 43 percent today. As the baby boomers start to die out, that number will only go up. Yes, the majority of public opinion is against gay marriage, but its just a matter of time.

(08-15-2010 12:31 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(08-14-2010 06:57 AM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  Even the people my age that were against gay marriage 5 years ago have pretty much gotten over it. I can only think of two of my friends who are even opposed to it at all, and I'm pretty sure if it was legalized, they still wouldn't care too much. I like the "gay is the new left handed". Pretty accurate. Even 20-somethings who claim to be really deeply religious couldn't care less.

Yet in vote after vote, in state after state people are voting against redefining marriage.

The straw man that is thrown up is the term 'homophobia' it's like 'islamophobia' or the deluge of 'racism' clams we see. It's nothing more than a quick way to shut people up with whom you disagree.

Since when did people in their early 20s vote? And since when did we make up a large enough minority to legalize gay marriage?

(08-15-2010 01:26 AM)CountryRedHawk Wrote:  

(08-15-2010 12:31 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(08-14-2010 06:57 AM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  Even the people my age that were against gay marriage 5 years ago have pretty much gotten over it. I can only think of two of my friends who are even opposed to it at all, and I'm pretty sure if it was legalized, they still wouldn't care too much. I like the "gay is the new left handed". Pretty accurate. Even 20-somethings who claim to be really deeply religious couldn't care less.

Yet in vote after vote, in state after state people are voting against redefining marriage.

The straw man that is thrown up is the term 'homophobia' it's like 'islamophobia' or the deluge of 'racism' clams we see. It's nothing more than a quick way to shut people up with whom you disagree.

Yet, in vote after vote, in state after state, and nationally, the numbers are changing radically against the baby boomers, and the "Christian" Right.... my generation is overwhelming FOR gay rights, and gay marriage. It doesn't matter how much the Catholic Church, or the LDS protests...even mainstream Protestant denominations are swinging FOR marriage.

It takes time... but it's coming, and there's nothing any of you can REALLY do to stop it. I'm just hoping it's sooner rather than later.

I would agree....The problem is...it is the baby boomers that bother to vote.

I vote, everyone of my friends votes.... You'd be surprised...I just want an answer from some of the "Christians" on this board...

If Proposition 8, Amendment 2, or anyother amendment had failed, would you still be talking about it? Or would you be the kinda people who, after a vote, goes time after time, throwin it on the ballot? Just wonderin.

Also, DADT? Why is it wrong, that I, as a gay man serve my country? I realize my life is more important than the average joe(that's a joke) but, I know I'd defend my family and this country with everything I have. Why can't I?

Oh, and what, a month ago, DOM was struck down by a federal court. And the Federal gov't refused to pursue an appeal.

(08-15-2010 09:12 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(08-15-2010 01:26 AM)CountryRedHawk Wrote:  

(08-15-2010 12:31 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(08-14-2010 06:57 AM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  Even the people my age that were against gay marriage 5 years ago have pretty much gotten over it. I can only think of two of my friends who are even opposed to it at all, and I'm pretty sure if it was legalized, they still wouldn't care too much. I like the "gay is the new left handed". Pretty accurate. Even 20-somethings who claim to be really deeply religious couldn't care less.

Yet in vote after vote, in state after state people are voting against redefining marriage.

The straw man that is thrown up is the term 'homophobia' it's like 'islamophobia' or the deluge of 'racism' clams we see. It's nothing more than a quick way to shut people up with whom you disagree.

Yet, in vote after vote, in state after state, and nationally, the numbers are changing radically against the baby boomers, and the "Christian" Right.... my generation is overwhelming FOR gay rights, and gay marriage. It doesn't matter how much the Catholic Church, or the LDS protests...even mainstream Protestant denominations are swinging FOR marriage.

It takes time... but it's coming, and there's nothing any of you can REALLY do to stop it. I'm just hoping it's sooner rather than later.

I would agree....The problem is...it is the baby boomers that bother to vote.

The baby boomers, and the young ones who are for gay rights, are the ones that bother to vote. I think there are a large number of (currently) non-voting members of "our generation" who will get to voting when they see things aren't going the way they want. They feel there is no reason to vote when they're in such a large majority. As soon as their views stop being represented as much, they'll come out of the woodwork. "Silent Majority" type stuff.