(03-17-2010 11:12 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(03-17-2010 09:44 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Yeah, I get that torch, but school desegregation, Family Medical leave Act, Social Security, Medi Caid. All of these overcame significant hurdles and they are quite popular today. I honestly don't believe they boogeyman the right tries to create.

School desegregation? Pshaw. Take a peek at Columbus Africentric. Or any of the HBCUs. A lot of sound and fury signifying nothing.

Social Security? Popular? That's a political and econmic nightmare.

You mistake the pragmatism and acceptance that people must exert just to survive reality as some sort of "popularity."

Just because the US hasn't imploded (yet) doesn't mean a program is popular or even effective.

Good. Don't accept social security when you get to that age as protest! Hell, don't use Medicare either. Actually, I hope all you righties boycott these "socialist" programs.

(03-17-2010 11:26 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  I want to know if the Libs here understand that their vision for America that they are supporting is a one-party, socialistic state.

Gee. You should take a position at Faux News. You have their talking points/scare tactics down real well.

Quote:Your idea of a greater society is blacks as slaves and women only for sex and cooking for you. I don't want to move to any of those other countries because I don't hate my country.

Robert, you didn't call anyone a d!ckhead or curse them but let's try to do our part in furthering along the debate.

Torch that is a fair question. I can only answer for myself. I support these policies because for most my adult life we have had this war on the middle class. I know you read that plutonomy article I posted yesterday. It's the only protection the avg. Joe has. The Reagan years rolled back protection after protection of our middle class. It's a quality of life issue to me.

(03-17-2010 12:02 PM)RobertN Wrote:  Good. Don't accept social security when you get to that age as protest! Hell, don't use Medicare either. Actually, I hope all you righties boycott these "socialist" programs.

If conservatives stopped paying into those programs you liberals would be f'ed.

anything that helps the middle class................. you will find me.....................

I vote my conscious..................... kind of along these lines

Wherever there
is injustice, you will find us (my vote).

Wherever there is suffering,
(I'll try to vote)we'll be there.

Wherever liberty is threatened,
you will find... (my vote)


Health Care is our El Guapo

In a way, each of us has an El Guapo to face. For some, shyness might be their El Guapo. For others, a lack of education might be their El Guapo. For us, El Guapo is a big, dangerous man who wants to kill us. But as sure as my name is Lucky Day, the people of Santa Poco can conquer their own personal El Guapo, who also happens to be *the actual* El Guapo!

(03-17-2010 12:05 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(03-17-2010 11:26 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  I want to know if the Libs here understand that their vision for America that they are supporting is a one-party, socialistic state.

Gee. You should take a position at Faux News. You have their talking points/scare tactics down real well.

No not Fox, it's plain fact. One party = Democratic's going alone on everything, And i think the socialistic state is clearer than the one party. What else is wealth distribution? Transformation? You'll never admit that that visionsucks.

Roberta, when you have an original intelligent reply, I will become a Democratic.

The pundits like to slice-and-dice our country into Red States and Blue States; Red States for Republicans, Blue States for Democrats. But I've got news for them, too. We worship an awesome God in the Blue States, and we don't like federal agents poking around our libraries in the Red States. We coach Little League in the Blue States and have gay friends in the Red States. There are patriots who opposed the war in Iraq and patriots who supported it. We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America.


Barack Obama
We all pay taxes.

(03-17-2010 12:15 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  anything that helps the middle class................. you will find me.....................

No, anything you perceive helps the middle class. And evidence to the contrary is routinely ignored.

And evidence to the contrary is routinely ignored.


It's not ignored. I listen. I think about it. I'm on a conservative chat room. I listen. Alot of the time I don't believe it though.

Serious question Torch. Did you read the plutonomy memo?

(03-17-2010 01:01 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Serious question Torch. Did you read the plutonomy memo?

I read the first few paragraphs. Looked like there were several memos altogether.

What it read like to me was the report from a consultant. I used to work as a consultant. It seemed like the intro section an investment roadmap. And not even the most professional one that I've ever read. There was a lot of opinion in that memo, and a lot of simplified terms.


It doesn't offend me b/c I think people should invest as they see fit. In the end, their net returns will tell how close to reality they were. Moreover, while Citi is pretty good sized, it was an investment strategy limited in scope.

You seem to take it as an indictment on our society. I think that overstates the breadth and accuracy of the memo.

I wouldn't consider that memo anywhere near on par with an academic treatise, not to mention that I question whether academic social science studies are particularly factual.

Nevertheless, you can question some of their assumptions w/ your own observations.

Do you really think it is an elite few who make iPhones so popular? Was it really just a handful of rich people that made Google worth billions? Do you really think there are no more Dave Thomases around? (Take a peek at 5 Guys Burgers). Read CoyoteBlog for a few months.

If you really like the middle class, and admire socioeconomic mobility, then you must hate a restrictive government. That's where the cronyism lies. The backroom deals. The backstabbing of successful outsiders.

All the stuff you hate comes from big government. And that certainly includes the corporatism that we have too much of. If GOP-supported corporatism is your gripe, understand that the majority of posters here share your disdain.

However, your proposed rememdies just take you deeper into the belly of the beat. Your prescriptions serve to decimate the middle class further, not to help them out.

Torch that's good stuff. I've taken to heart what Owl said about regulation too. How regulation causes more kick backs and such. You know fertile grounds for such activity. I thought long and hard about it. Then the Chile earthquakes. They had something like 100x's more powerful earthquakes, yet since the building codes were so up to snuff they had no where near the casualties. Sometimes you pay one way or the other for good govt. In my view, and (I KNOW) it's not shared by many on here. Republicans want Haiti and I want to live in Chile. I don't expect you to agree with that but I have thought about it and that's where I am at mentally.

(03-17-2010 11:57 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(03-17-2010 10:29 AM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  

(03-17-2010 09:27 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  it was employed to adjust House Resolution 71, the "Family Medical Leave Act."



This is very popular today. I see ths health care the same way. It will be popular in the coming years. Every great social advancement comes with significant struggle. The right will not go quietly into the night but this will help society.

No, it won't. It's been listed numerous times on this site the consequences Obamacare will bring. It will add to the deficit, it will lower quality of care. The New England Journal of Medicine posted a poll that said over 50% of doctor's would leave the profession if Obamacare passed.

This bill is a disaster for this country. It will bankrupt this country. And you, who claim to want to see the deficit cut, don't give a sh!t. One need only look at the disaster social security, medicare and medicaid are in to know this will be a total cluster.

Baa, baa, baa. THat is what Faux told me. Baa, baa, baa. That is what Rush told me. Baa, baa, baa. THat is what Beck told me.

You can have someone read the study to you if you like.

Study

I made a mistake in my first post, it's 45% would leave. 50% say it will decrease the quality of care.

Robert you are the last person in the world to call anyone a sheep. You're not smart enough to think for yourself, which is why you post tripe like the above.

(03-17-2010 09:44 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Yeah, I get that torch, but school desegregation, Family Medical leave Act, Social Security, Medi Caid. All of these overcame significant hurdles and they are quite popular today. I honestly don't believe they boogeyman the right tries to create.

Mach. I work in a large unionized factory. FMLA is a huge cost to the company that, in turn, ultimately gets passed on to the consumer.

FMLA is another of those acts that at first appears to "help people out", but soon becomes just another way for the worst employees to "work the system" to keep their job.

The main users of FMLA are the employees the already had a history of absenteeism, showing up late for work, etc. FMLA just became another mechanism for these people to further play the system to - not show up to work regularly, show up late for work, etc., but yet to still retain their job.

This type of regulation is why manufacturing jobs (value added jobs that create wealth & sustain the middle class) are leaving our shores. We can't sustain the manufacturing job drain and keep a large middle class. McDonalds & other service jobs won't sustain the middle class.

In my situation, FMLA just protects the worst of the work force from losing their job to someone that wants to work. Of course, those folks that employ FMLA to their advantage love the act.

My best friend is pretty high up in the food chain at a Ford supplier. He ******* about abuses of FMLA too but if he gets a guy in his cross hairs the guy is toast. They also absolutely CLOBBERED labor in the last contract negotiation too. On our last golf trip I gave him some serious ribbing about stickin the litlle guy but after his horror stories I wanted to go in and fire the few dmb asses myself.

(03-17-2010 01:35 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Republicans want Haiti and I want to live in Chile.

Quote:We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America.

Having a hard time juxtaposing these two posts of yours. I don't know which you are representing as your own... but I can guarantee you that some, many or most Republicans would NEVER want Haiti... I assume you're talking about building codes etc. What appears to be a comment labeling all Republicans as greedy certainly flies in the face of your more "we the people" post.

I can only tell you that establishing and enforcing safety codes is a far different thing from establishing and enforcing hiring quotas...

I realize that racism and discrimination is STILL an issue in this country... but I disagree with those who insist that we must legislate and codify "fairness". Racism and discrimination in things like hiring can be declared illegal without things like quotas and CRA and the like which add beauracracy and inefficiency under the auspices of "oversight". I'd say that some, many, most Republicans agree with oversight... but disagree with social engineering posing as oversight.

(03-17-2010 01:35 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Republicans want Haiti and I want to live in Chile. I don't expect you to agree with that but I have thought about it and that's where I am at mentally.

Show me one f'n area controlled by Republicans that resembles Haiti. I can draw parallels between Haiti and several Democrat-controlled areas.

All you offer is conjecture and, 99% of the time, it's f'n wrong.

(03-17-2010 01:35 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Republicans want Haiti and I want to live in Chile. I don't expect you to agree with that but I have thought about it and that's where I am at mentally.

Actually you have that exactly backwards. Haiti has been much closer to chasing socialism, and Chile closer to the free market. Of course, given that republicans haven't been very free market lately, Chile may not be a fit for them, either.

Chile probably had the most free-market economy in the world for a time in the 70s. Even with 20 years of leftist rule (ending with the last election), they've arguably still been the most free-market country in Latin America. That probably says more about Latin America than about anything else.