Have the baseball Bucs ever had close to 2,000 in home attendance? Does anyone on this board know what the average home attendance for the baseball Bucs has been over say the last 10 years? Has attendance increase or decrease since being booted from the SoCon and winding up in the A-Sun.

Also I realize several others have point out this fact out but I simply cannot get over that fact of the bond issued to build the soccer stadium is for 20 years. Essentially, entire generations of ETSU students are being asked to finance a stadium that will average 100 people per game in attendance if that.

P.S. I miss ETSU FOOTBALL!!

97,
Most of us cannot understand these things going on at ETSU right now. Fall is really tough for Buc fans. Tough and embarassing.

There was a day when ETSU baseball was very competitive. I remember about 1978-80 when coach Charlie Lodes was head of the program watching ETSU play UNC at DB stadium in Kingsport. There were good crowds. I have no idea of the average attendance that year.

Those were the years of strong pitchers like Atlee Hammaker, teams winning the SoCon and serious trips to the NCAA tournament. Just after Lodes left, ETSU dropped most if not all baseball scholarhships and the program hit bottom.

They draw well when Tennessee comes to town and that's about it. I would say like 500 or so, but I'm sure as part of their branding and business model for growth they feel by bringing mediocrity closer to campus it will attract more fans.
I do have a question for those of you out there who feel like looking it up, how many baseball scholarships per year has ETSU had since the ridiculous demise of football?

(09-01-2009 03:21 PM)buc1997 Wrote:  Have the baseball Bucs ever had close to 2,000 in home attendance? Does anyone on this board know what the average home attendance for the baseball Bucs has been over say the last 10 years? Has attendance increase or decrease since being booted from the SoCon and winding up in the A-Sun.

Also I realize several others have point out this fact out but I simply cannot get over that fact of the bond issued to build the soccer stadium is for 20 years. Essentially, entire generations of ETSU students are being asked to finance a stadium that will average 100 people per game in attendance if that.

P.S. I miss ETSU FOOTBALL!!

As I understand it, the new baseball facility is being built to MLB AA standards. There has been talk for some time of the health of the Appy league, and rumors of a Tri-Cities AA team if the Appy league folded. It may never come to be, but at least I give someone (I don't know who) credit for forward thinking.

Bond issues for capital improvements are most commonly 20 or 30 year bonds. That's true whether the building is the MiniDome, a dorm, a soccer field, a baseball field, etc. I'm not sure ETSU gets any input on the terms of the bond, as they are State bonds.

BTW I miss football also.

Okay, Doc, but if that is the case- LET'S DISCUSS THE IDEA OF AN AA TEAM IN TOWN.

Personally, I think it's a great idea. More cosmopolitan- more media- more exposure. Even if it doesn't happen then people will be more apt to support the old Appy League, as that is what people would therefore prefer.

Here's the situation as I see it. ETSU has a vision- and a good vision- of building a baseball park and having businesses and shops and resturaunts around it. I think it's a great idea IN THEORY- I've been talking about it for years- reviving the area through sports teams the way Cleveland did.

The problems, however, are-

A- Though I like college baseball, who else does? I've been to games where there are three- correct- THREE other people in the stands on a beautiful spring day. Usually the attendance is listed somewhere around 200, to answer your question.

A new stadium would provide an attendance spike, but how much; 400?

B- I'm told the baseball team has a full alotment of scholarships. I believe the number is approximately a dozen.

C- In the Atlantic Sun, and it appears ETSU wants to stay here, baseball is the primary sport to many of the schools. ETSU feels they will need new facilities to compete. An off-campus ballpark that ain't even flat won't cut it.

What it boils down to is I think this is a wonderful idea, but ETSU athletics currently are not popular enough to make this work by itself.

However, if this was said in conjuction with-

"We want to build this so we can become a major player in athletics- not competing with the Lipscomb and Stetsons- but the SEC and ACC."

"This will allow Johnson City to have a AA team."

THEN I MIGHT BE ABLE TO SEE IT!!!!

But alas, I think ETSU believes their "world class" athletic program (or was it "world reknown?") and the 200 people that will come to watch the baseball team at the place in 2015 are enough for the Sophisticated Otter to come back and relocate to a location beyond left field.

How many times has ETSU baseball made it to the NCAA tourney? I can remember one year, I believe 1978, for sure.

I would rather see a AA baseball game in Johnson City, than an ETSU game anyday. There is just no atmosphere at an ETSU baseball game. Probably because a dozen or so people show up.

Pitt & BucDoctor,
Thanks for the background information. In my mind the info you two provided raises several more questions.
Does Johnson City have the population base for an AA team?
Would an ACC or SEC program ever come to Johnson City for a weekend series?
I went to graduate school at UNC-Greensboro and while the Spartans had a nice on campus baseball stadium it was not built to MLB AA standards. To the best of my memory ACC (NCSU, Duke, WFU, UNC-CH) schools were always willing to play Greensboro but only as the mid-week game never a weekend series. Similar to the mid-week home and home that ETSU has with the Vols.
I believe only three or four schools in the county currently have situations where revenues exceed expenses within college baseball. That would be LSU, Mississippi State and maybe Clemson.

Perhaps the new stadium will do wonders for ETSU & Johnson City.

Winning would change everything. Clemson has a great baseball program with expectations of making the tournament every year. VT baseball is improving but then they have the money to pump into it.

(09-02-2009 02:48 PM)buc1997 Wrote:  Pitt & BucDoctor,
Does Johnson City have the population base for an AA team?

Would an ACC or SEC program ever come to Johnson City for a weekend series?
Perhaps the new stadium will do wonders for ETSU & Johnson City.

Folks, my comments about the Appy league and AA are merely hearsay, take them as that.

Does Johnson City have the population base for an AA team? No but neither does Jackson TN (62,000) nor Sevierville. At some point we have to stop looking at this as Johnson City, this is the TriCities and there are a half a million people in this area.

Would an ACC or SEC program ever come to Johnson City for a weekend series?
I have no idea, quite honestly I don't follow college baseball, but would attend MLB AA baseball games. I even occasionally attend an Appy league game.

The problem with becoming an AA market is that there are rules in minor league baseball that would prohibit Johnson City from having such a franchise IF the Appalachian League still exists.

Now, I've talked to some of the sports editors of local newspapers in this town about this. They feel an AA franchise would actually get LESS coverage than the Appalachian League would. A newspaper in Greeneville will cover the Astros, but likely not budget sending a writer to cover a AA team in, say, Blountville.

What I have maintained is that a AA team would be run with some money behind it. They wouldn't be a non-profit entity as the Appy League is.

As such, the Greeneville and Elizabethton papers would receive press releases to run concerning the events of such a team. Such a team would have real radio coverage- not just home games- likely on a WKPT or WKOS (Braves gotta be on WXSM).


In short, they'd have the sort of coverage ETSU has locally. Which legitimately is more than what the Appy League teams get.


If Doc's source knows what he's talking about, it might be interesting to consider that ETSU would be trying to find a buyer for a AA team to move to town so they could help fund the stadium and literally attempt to lobby the Appalachian League out of business.

Furthermore, since Scott Nicewonger essentially paid for the Astros/Tusculum ballpark, and a AA team would likely put the Greeneville Astros out of business, ETSU would be ticking off a major philanthropist.

I guess I'm wrong, but wouldn't the city of Johnson City be recruiting an organization to bring in a AA team, and not ETSU? If so, how would ETSU be ticking off Niswonger? Aren't they already building the stadium? If so, why is ETSU trying to find the AA team to help fund a stadium that they already have money for? Once again, these arguments make no sense to me based on what I've read. I'm sure I'm the idiot.

I'm all for bringing an A or AA team to town. I'm not sure a 2,000 seat stadium will get it done for AA, but maybe @ the A level. I think it would be exciting for JC to bring that to town. If it's an A team, JC could go to the South Atlantic (Sally) League, a league w/ a nice long history w/ several teams out of western NC including Asheville, Hickory, and Kannapolis, Rome, GA, as at well as Lexington, KY. I'm all for seeing a team at a higher level than rookie coming to town, it's nothing but a plus.

(09-11-2009 10:21 PM)GoBucsGo Wrote:  I guess I'm wrong, but wouldn't the city of Johnson City be recruiting an organization to bring in a AA team, and not ETSU? If so, how would ETSU be ticking off Niswonger? Aren't they already building the stadium? If so, why is ETSU trying to find the AA team to help fund a stadium that they already have money for? Once again, these arguments make no sense to me based on what I've read. I'm sure I'm the idiot.

I'm all for bringing an A or AA team to town. I'm not sure a 2,000 seat stadium will get it done for AA, but maybe @ the A level. I think it would be exciting for JC to bring that to town. If it's an A team, JC could go to the South Atlantic (Sally) League, a league w/ a nice long history w/ several teams out of western NC including Asheville, Hickory, and Kannapolis, Rome, GA, as at well as Lexington, KY. I'm all for seeing a team at a higher level than rookie coming to town, it's nothing but a plus.

I can search the reasons why, but I believe there are rules prohibiting a AA team from coming to town because of the Appalachian League. It's complex, but you can't have a AA team in JC (or for that matter, Kingsport) with the Appy League around.

So, if you wanted to push for a AA team, it would mean the demise of the Appalachian League, which is Rookie ball.

Scot Nicewonger just built a stadium for the Greeneville Astros. If you made it obsolete and destroyed that franchise to benefit Johnson City after you've spent millions to lure a team to Greeneville, then you'd certainly be ticking someone off, especially when he's turned down requests for money to build the potential new yard.

In terms of recruiting the team, our speculation is that for a new ballpark to be built it would need two tenants. Hence, if ETSU wants the yard, recruiting a team is necessary.

The conversations I've heard is its just about the Cardinals moving there.

Personally, I don't think an AA team is coming. You really think the people who tell us "The A-Sun is just as good as the Southern, or any one-bid league!" is going to try to IMPROVE the other sports franchise in town?

Pitt the conversations I have heard are concerning the health of the Appy League in general, not anything specific to Johnson City. To my knowledge no one is trying to throw the Appy League under the bus. Excluding Greeneville, the average attendance at an Appy League game was around 850. The champion Danville Braves averaged only around 1,000. If the Appy League happens to fold, then the Nicewonger stadium, or Hunter Wright Field, etc. are a moot points.

At this point in time, the Appy League Cardinals should certainly move to the new park. If the Appy League folds, then the new park needs to be "minor league upgrade" (my term) ready.

I agree Doctor. If the Appy folds, then JC should be ready to bring in another team, which I think we would have an excellent shot based on the population base, although Pitt Buc will tell you it's the worst sports town in the history of sports towns.

However, I think what Pitt is saying that if JC was to get a AA team in there, it would kill the Appy League. I don't really believe that, but I think that's what he means.

I still am not convinced, however, of his argument that ETSU is responsible for recruiting the AA team.

The ASun and SoCon are both one bid leagues, but that's basketball...

BucDoc- They've been drawing that for years. To be brutally honest, the Tri-Cities is oversaturated with five minor league baseball teams.

The thing with the Appy League is it is non-profit. Now, for years I wondered how it could exist with its low attendance (it is the lowest attended minor league with the exception of the leagues- such as the Gulf Coast- that are not designed to draw fans and do not sell tickets to games), but the thing is costs are kept so low they can break even. The major league teams provide the uniforms, for instance, hence all the teams are named after the parent clubs (all of the other fan-drawing leagues have their own nicknames, with very few exceptions).

Of course, with these cost cuts, there are many problems. For instance, there isn't a PR guy in charge of giving stats and information to the media at any of the teams. You have people who are employed by the Parks and Recs and they operate the clubs because "they like baseball," not that they have any background in sports business. I have often heard people around Appy League teams say "we shouldn't broadcast the games on radio, then people won't come to the ballpark" when that theory was proven incorrect somewhere around 1930.

If someone has some inside knowledge the Appy League is going away, please put forth. But there has been idle chatter about that for years because of the low attendance, much the same way there has been idle chatter about the Dodgers moving back to Brooklyn for about a half century.

I've been part of that idle chatter. I can't believe a league can be operated by so many who don't know even the things taught at a basic sports business seminar. Yet the league has existed since 1911 and I think will continue to exist.

I think the Appy League will go away when major league teams decide they must pay their major league talent more and less to developmental talent. Until then, it is literally designed to survive all of its shortcomings.

As far as ETSU recruiting a team- I don't know if I've ever said that ETSU should or will recruit a team. However, if they build a ballpark- you would have to think they'd want another tenant. My guess- and it's only a guess- is that to raise the money for such a yard they would need to have someone involved that wants to bring in a minor league baseball team to town and thinks it would be profitable to put forth money for the construction of the team.

Also- Go- it is my understanding that by Professional Baseball rules, a larger minor league team- A, AA, whatever- could not come into the Tri-Cities as long as the Appalachian League continued to operate in the area.