(08-24-2009 07:06 PM)Chipdip Wrote:   I gave you a history book's worth of information, and the best you can do is to focus on my saying "I think" Steers statement is false?

It's conjecture because I think he's wrong? Dude, that's weak.

Apparently, Steer saying the Nazi's were in bed with "conservative industry" (has yet to explain how he knew they were conservative)..............that's not "conjecture" because HE said it as a matter of fact rather.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

By all means gentlemen, keep apologizing for Pelosi's remarks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rRE5UK6NQU

OK, I'm back. My computer is repaired and the lightning struck TV was picked up by the city for disposal. Here is the evidence that Hitler was a right winger.

Quote:Like many Germans, but even more so since he had effectively chosen German identity, Hitler needed to find an explanation for this catastrophe. And the explanation being vigorously canvassed by the extreme Right in Munich,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/w...r_04.shtml

I've added the underline.

Here is a link for industrial support for the NSDAP

(08-24-2009 02:41 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  Seriously? Nazi's were leftists? They may have started that way with their backing of the labor movement, but anyone who isn't short of a full deck of cards know that the Nazi party, facist dictator and all were far to the right.

I think it's wrong of Nancy to call anyone who dissents a Nazi by the way, it's wrong on all sides. This is democracy and debate is part of the process. So is holding them accountable, and elections are only a year away.

Its hard to have this discussion without bringing up Goodwin so lets take out the whole WW2 thing, and focus only on internal social policies.

What did the NAZI's do?

1) For Gun Control
2) For Abortion Rights
3) Against Home Schooling or Private Schooling
4) Compulsory membership in youth organizations (very Obamaesq)

Its probably fair to say that on social issues the Nazi Party were far more liberal, as Americans understand the term, than they were conservative. Its not fair to label people on the Left "Nazis" because there are a ton on nuances that went into that party (such as their use of the Church) that divulge from modern American leftist positions.

The National Socialist Party is widely known to be WAY TO THE RIGHT. EOD.

Pro Abortion, Pro Gun Control, Against Private Education (and homeschooling), pro state youth organizations, strong central government...

Oh year way to the right...

So Dip brings up war atrocities to support his economic approach comparison in terms of this discussion, and you bring up liberal policies and try to spin that!? You both are playing games now, nothing more.

Nice attempt, and it's widely known (understood by most) that the NAZI party is way to the right. Your references of their gun control, abortion utlization for birth control, state brainwashing in the vein of schooling and compulsory youth membership are classic fascist practices. They weren't about individual rights, more crowd control by the state.

That would be the proper connotation for your 1-4 points.

I'm not playing any games, this time it is obvious paranoia on your part...

What I said was "Its hard to have this discussion without bringing up Goodwin so lets take out the whole WW2 thing, and focus only on internal social policies."

In other words I think Dip was being a bit, well, dippy, by bringing out Goodwin.

Now onto this

"Nice attempt, and it's widely known (understood by most) that the NAZI party is way to the right. "

You can keep saying the Nazi party is to the right all you want, and I don't care how 'widely' its known. It was pretty widely known that the sun orbited the earth in mid-evil Europe though it was never true.

"Your references of their gun control, abortion utlization for birth control, state brainwashing in the vein of schooling and compulsory youth membership are classic fascist practices"

They are also (1) True and (2) Far more like the American left than the American Right.

No you're wrong, they aren't far more to the "American left" than the right, they are about CENTRAL STATE CONTROL which is fundamental for facism. Nothing to do with individual rights.

Quote:You can keep saying the Nazi party is to the right all you want, and I don't care how 'widely' its known.

That's obvious, but the definition and determination was made long before you attempted to redefine it here.

Quote:It was pretty widely known that the sun orbited the earth in mid-evil Europe though it was never true.

We're not talking about earths sciences and ignorance of them in midevil days, we're discussing economic theories and you're throwing out red herrings to deflect the direction of the discussion.

(08-31-2009 04:04 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  No you're wrong, they aren't far more to the "American left" than the right, they are about CENTRAL STATE CONTROL which is fundamental for facism. Nothing to do with individual rights.

It is also fundamental for Obama's agenda. The liberals in America equate lack of central control (e.g. states rights) with racism and corporatism. You can't say, with a straight face, that the American right wants more central state control than the American left.

Quote:We're not talking about earths sciences and ignorance of them in midevil days, we're discussing economic theories and you're throwing out red herrings to deflect the direction of the discussion.

Fascism is not just an economic theory its also a theory of a strong central government and its dominance over the populous. Just as communism is not just about economics but also about society as a whole.

In this case, this discussion, with the derogatory equating of BHO's health care to NAZIsm, we're talking in the context of economic theory. Any other mention isn't relevant. That's how it was introduced by the protestors and that was how it was attempted to be projected upon Pelosi to have said in a negative way as an insult (which she didn't, she was asked a direct question about the protestors being a grass roots movement to which she said "No" and that they were carrying swastikas).

Quote:It is also fundamental for Obama's agenda. The liberals in America equate lack of central control (e.g. states rights) with racism and corporatism.

I'd say what's more fundamental for the health care debate is that the current system is broken, they're proposing a solution (that hasn't been finalized yet) that gives people coverage and a choice of public care or private. It's not my choice, but if it were only one solution, and that was total state control in the sense like you describe, then Sweden, Great Britian, Norway, Denmark, and many other industrialized countries with government run health care are facists? Really?

Quote: You can't say, with a straight face, that the American right wants more central state control than the American left.

Straight face here. All of these under the premise of HOMELAND SECURITY. Illegal surveilance, illegal search and seizure, suspects being detained indefinately without being arrested, wire tapping, and freedom of speech rights being curtailed.

Did he go Big Lurch on her?

(08-31-2009 04:47 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  In this case, this discussion, with the derogatory equating of BHO's health care to NAZIsm, we're talking in the context of economic theory. Any other mention isn't relevant.

I disagree, The plan working its way through congress is as much about 'economics' as it is a strong central controlling government.

Quote:I'd say what's more fundamental for the health care debate is that the current system is broken, they're proposing a solution (that hasn't been finalized yet) that gives people coverage and a choice of public care or private.

The devil in the details is in the level of regulation the 'public option' will have over private companies. The USPS does not get to set delivery times for FedEx or UPS but the Public plan will get to set policy for private companies.

Quote:Straight face here. All of these under the premise of HOMELAND SECURITY. Illegal surveilance, illegal search and seizure, suspects being detained indefinately without being arrested, wire tapping, and freedom of speech rights being curtailed.

How, exactly did the democrats vote on the homeland security measures? What has Obama done to dissolve them? how many 'czars' has Obama created (hint, way more than George Bush). The insanity after 9-11 infected both parties but systemically strong central control is a target of the American left..

It's all economics. Be sure to inform the above mentioned countries that they're fascist when you have the time.

Quote:The insanity after 9-11 infected both parties but systemically strong central control is a target of the American left.

Equating that with fascism or Nazism is ignorant. Sorry.

Quote:What did the NAZI's do?

1) For Gun Control
2) For Abortion Rights
3) Against Home Schooling or Private Schooling
4) Compulsory membership in youth organizations

The NSDAP believed abortion and euthanasia were reserved for "untermenschen," the retarded, mentally ill, jews and other non-superman types.

The NSDAP believed in universal (well germanic-universal) military service. Teach the people to use weapons and then prevent the people from having guns? There is an inconsistency here. If gun control was enacted, how did the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, or the Paris insurrection occur late in the war? The NSDAP even armed conquered countrymen (The Waffen SS) and prisoners of war from Russia as German military, (and the Russians executed these POW/German soldiers after the war.)

The NSDAP was concerned with mobilizing the country to a unified disciplined whole. A discussion of home schooling would be immaterial to them. A review of their parades, and Munich rallies showed their goals for the people

The compulsory youth membership was, like their parades and rallies, had the goal of
unifying the people, preparing youth for service to the party. Future leaders could be found and recruited to the party.

My take: the NSDAP (Nazis) were not concerned with an economic approach, but to power for the sake of power. And the industrialists like Willie Messerschmidt supported him.