I thought Muslims were forbidden to lie to other Muslims. Is this right? If so, how does the Ayatollah tell the Iranians the elction was fair?

Indeed, it is shocking that a religious leader would turn out to be a dishonest hypocrite.

Surely this has never happened before. ; )

(06-24-2009 01:25 PM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  Indeed, it is shocking that a religious leader would turn out to be a dishonest hypocrite.

Surely this has never happened before. ; )

Gee, no need to slam other religious leaders.

My question is about Islam, a religion I know only a little about, but I know a lot of its adherents take its precepts more seriously than most of the followers of the other religions that you are probably referring to. If the rank and file are that serious about it, it is doubling shocking to find a leader PUBLICLY and OBVIOUSLY lying. Unless of course, i am incorrect in my knowledge of this religion. Hence my question. I already know there have been a lot of Popes who didn't practice what they preached.

Anyone else have any knowledge they would share about Islam?

I have no personal experience, but found a few items online that might help:

this one appears to be written more from a defense of Islam perspective, but I just don't know about the sourcing/interpretation: http://muslim-responses.com/Islam_on_Lying/

this also seems to come from the Muslim POV: http://www.islamreview.com/articles/lying.shtml

this also has some more examples: http://www.answering-islam.org/Index/L/lying.html

Maybe they think lying is justified in serving the higher purpose of preserving the theocracy.

(06-24-2009 01:37 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-24-2009 01:25 PM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  Indeed, it is shocking that a religious leader would turn out to be a dishonest hypocrite.

Surely this has never happened before. ; )

Gee, no need to slam other religious leaders.

But I get such a kick out of it! Don't spoil my fun!

Seriously, I was just trying to jokingly make the point that examples of religious leaders failing to live up to their role are pretty common throughout history. The examples that come to mind for me are mostly from Christianity, but that's just because that's what I know. I have no doubt there are plenty of Buddhist and Hindu instances, for example.

I'm sure that's not news to you, so I guess I didn't really get the original question.

(06-24-2009 01:50 PM)JSA Wrote:  Maybe they think lying is justified in serving the higher purpose of preserving the theocracy.

Assuming it isn't a completely cynical power grab, I'd guess that's probably the case. I have no doubt that some involved in the pedophile priest cover ups were completely genuine in feeling that the damage that would be done to the church if it came out justified the cover ups. (Not defending it, just to be clear.)

As I understand it the Supreme Leader has dubious credentials as a cleric - I heard it described as the equivalent of a pope being elevated directly from being a bishop without ever being a Cardinal.

Thank you, everybody, especially gsloth. I think I have a better understanding now.

The way I heard it described, Rafsanjani, who was the last person with Khomeini prior to his death, stated that Khomeini named Khamenei as his successor on his death bed.

The presumption is that this was done because Khamenei was a follower of both Rafsanjani and Khomeini and was far enough down the totem pole that he would be beholden to Rafsanjani for the boost up. In doing so, he took advantage of a leadership vacuum left in Khomeini's wake (there was at least one vote -- much like the pope vote -- that failed to ratify a candidate as supreme leader), all the while trying to avoid the backlash that a direct power grab of becoming supreme leader himself might create.

Rafsanjani and Khamenei since diverged in their opinion of the proper path forward for Iran and are now archrivals.

(06-24-2009 03:39 PM)texd Wrote:  Rafsanjani and Khamenei since diverged in their opinion of the proper path forward for Iran and are now archrivals.

The real gold mine on internal Iranian politics is General Alireza Asgari, former commander of the Revolutionary Guards, who defected to the US in 2007. I'm sure that he has spilled the beans on who is loyal to the Mullahs and who could be urged to assist the protesters.

This is one of the better articles on the background of the the Iranian situation I've read:

http://www.slate.com/id/2221256

(06-25-2009 01:09 PM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  This is one of the better articles on the background of the the Iranian situation I've read:

http://www.slate.com/id/2221256

Very interesting. While not diminishing anyone's opposition to the regime, that article certainly suggests caution against projecting too much hope for Western-style (or even Turkish-style) republicanism on the opposition.