I think it's a good discussion and I'm certainly fine with having it.

Gold, I understand winning on the field is a goal, but it certainly is not THE ONLY goal. If you are working at ETSU or a part of the institution's mission as a volunteer, employee or support staff, you are there to provide educational opportunities, whether they come in a classroom, in a music studio, on the field of athletic competition, during a community service effort with your fraternity or sorority, etc.

I'm sorry but the "team" dynamics of athletics are different than the team building opportunities provided in the classroom. Your talking about being part of a team unit for as much as four years, and learning how to basically live with diverse individuals and learn to get along. And yes, student-athletes get a great deal of attention from academic counselors, but they do still have to use those tools at their disposal.

I just see athletics as more than the wins and losses, much more. At places like UT and BCS schools, they have become entities all their own and have left the "academic" model. But outside of the 30 or so schools that "make" money the mission and reason for having programs is primarily to provide academic opportunities to students while also building alumni pride.

It's a funny thing to me that when you compare the reputations of graduates from most BCS schools vs. ETSU, there is no comparison.

I thought I would repost a couple of my questions/comments since there was no response from Buc2002. I was interested in what the administration thought of these questions. See below

Kev and Gold's view of sports could absolutely fit the model of Title IX. For God's sake, will you please admit that to keep football you guys have chosen the most expensive way to comply with Title IX. You do realize their are other alternatives. I know, I know... this is the route you guys chose and you all have been certified as passing Title IX but with a little extra work you could comply with Title IX like most every other school.

If sports is about more than fun and interest and it is about educational opportunities, why don't you guys charge student fees for scholarships for the underprivilidged?

(04-29-2009 06:26 AM)Buc Wrote:  I thought I would repost a couple of my questions/comments since there was no response from Buc2002. I was interested in what the administration thought of these questions. See below

Kev and Gold's view of sports could absolutely fit the model of Title IX. For God's sake, will you please admit that to keep football you guys have chosen the most expensive way to comply with Title IX. You do realize their are other alternatives. I know, I know... this is the route you guys chose and you all have been certified as passing Title IX but with a little extra work you could comply with Title IX like most every other school.

If sports is about more than fun and interest and it is about educational opportunities, why don't you guys charge student fees for scholarships for the underprivilidged?

I can't speak for the overall administration, president or anyone else in a decision making compacity on the "whys" or the thought process. There is just the "is", and at ETSU that fact is the proportionality approach to scholarships. Now, I can say that I've heard and read comments from both the AD and president that talk about proportionality being the only prong of Title IX that is really legitimate. The other prongs are considered ways "around the intent" of Title IX. They make it so that some schools can skirt (no pun intended) the law.

As for your question about underpriviledged students, I would first point out that there are numerous scholarships, grants, federal grant in aids, and work studies for underpriviledged students. In addition, if these kids are coming from households without a lot of income, they aren't paying federal income tax or any other tax with the exception of sales taxes. There are multiple ways for underpriviledge kids to get an education in this country, and many of those kids utilize athletics to reach that goal.

As for a fee, there are plenty of fees in tuition that cover "services and operating" on campus, but I don't know that you can specifically say they are earmarked for scholarships.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but again, you have to consider athletics the same as other opportunities on campus. Athletics has an educational purpose and mission, and people a long time ago and at institutions across the country bought into that mission. Which is why college athletics is so rampant today -- even at NAIA schools.

Think about that. Why do you think schools like Milligan or King have athletic programs? They know their mission is to educate kids and stay operational. They can do both by starting athletic programs, which bring certain kids to their school that otherwise wouldn't be there to get an education while also providing revenue. The system works at all levels. And to Gold, sure winning is important at places like King and Milligan as well, but I'm sure they would say the reason for their being goes beyond the standings, because really at that level there's not a lot of people paying attention whether you win or lose anyway.

(04-28-2009 11:45 PM)Buccaneerlover Wrote:  It's a funny thing to me that when you compare the reputations of graduates from most BCS schools vs. ETSU, there is no comparison.

I have no idea what point your trying to make here or what nebulous measuring system you are using for "reputation." You have the ability to earn a quality education and strong degree from many schools across this country and they don't have to be BCS. Heck, they don't have to be mid-major. They can be NAIA schools.

I think there are plenty of people from schools like Swarthmore College in Pennsylvania or even the smaller schools around here that are quite proud of their degrees, and understand they carry a reputation of their own. Get over the inferiority complex, if you worked hard at ETSU and utilized your educational opportunities, you will do well in interviews, have a strong GPA and get a job.

BucDoctor, can I get an Amen!

02,

Of course they say it goes beyond winning...it is the way the seek to legitimize it. Look I don't have a problem with it....I just don't like a lot of bull and spin....which is what they shovel. I would also say that such nonsense is shoveled out by more departments than just the athletic.

I also do not consider community service to be education.

I guess I don't consider team building exercises in South Padre Island while missing class time getting a quality education, but who knows? Much to the greatness of the tennis and women's communist kickball coaches, they made their student athletes go to class. I do like the fact that you used the term nebulous though, are you doing David Stern impressions today?
And yes, there is a difference in those schools, especially when you're talking about state supported schools. When you bring up the NAIA, what do we think of? King, Milligan, VI, all private schools, and UVA-Wise, it's a degree from freaking UVA! It's apples to oranges there. I believe we have some coaches that are doing a good job with making sure their athletes are in class, majoring in a useful major that can get them places with just a bachelors degree, and making the grades, but I also believe we have other issues on our campus with some programs that aren't necessarily encouraging their athletes to do what they need to become productive out of college.

(04-29-2009 07:15 AM)Buc2002 Wrote:  

(04-28-2009 11:45 PM)Buccaneerlover Wrote:  It's a funny thing to me that when you compare the reputations of graduates from most BCS schools vs. ETSU, there is no comparison.

I have no idea what point your trying to make here or what nebulous measuring system you are using for "reputation." You have the ability to earn a quality education and strong degree from many schools across this country and they don't have to be BCS. Heck, they don't have to be mid-major. They can be NAIA schools.

I think there are plenty of people from schools like Swarthmore College in Pennsylvania or even the smaller schools around here that are quite proud of their degrees, and understand they carry a reputation of their own. Get over the inferiority complex, if you worked hard at ETSU and utilized your educational opportunities, you will do well in interviews, have a strong GPA and get a job.

BucDoctor, can I get an Amen!

(04-29-2009 07:15 AM)Buc2002 Wrote:  

(04-28-2009 11:45 PM)Buccaneerlover Wrote:  It's a funny thing to me that when you compare the reputations of graduates from most BCS schools vs. ETSU, there is no comparison.

I have no idea what point your trying to make here or what nebulous measuring system you are using for "reputation." You have the ability to earn a quality education and strong degree from many schools across this country and they don't have to be BCS. Heck, they don't have to be mid-major. They can be NAIA schools.

I think there are plenty of people from schools like Swarthmore College in Pennsylvania or even the smaller schools around here that are quite proud of their degrees, and understand they carry a reputation of their own. Get over the inferiority complex, if you worked hard at ETSU and utilized your educational opportunities, you will do well in interviews, have a strong GPA and get a job.

BucDoctor, can I get an Amen!

AMEN! You can get a good education at many places (not all as some have recently turned into diploma mills, but I digress). ETSU's Med School is nationally ranked, the Cardiopulmonary Science and Rural and Community Health programs have won awards for being the best in the nation, the Audiology and Speech Pathology programs are nationally ranked, etc.

(04-30-2009 06:01 AM)BucDoctor Wrote:  

(04-29-2009 07:15 AM)Buc2002 Wrote:  

(04-28-2009 11:45 PM)Buccaneerlover Wrote:  It's a funny thing to me that when you compare the reputations of graduates from most BCS schools vs. ETSU, there is no comparison.

I have no idea what point your trying to make here or what nebulous measuring system you are using for "reputation." You have the ability to earn a quality education and strong degree from many schools across this country and they don't have to be BCS. Heck, they don't have to be mid-major. They can be NAIA schools.

I think there are plenty of people from schools like Swarthmore College in Pennsylvania or even the smaller schools around here that are quite proud of their degrees, and understand they carry a reputation of their own. Get over the inferiority complex, if you worked hard at ETSU and utilized your educational opportunities, you will do well in interviews, have a strong GPA and get a job.

BucDoctor, can I get an Amen!

AMEN! You can get a good education at many places (not all as some have recently turned into diploma mills, but I digress). ETSU's Med School is nationally ranked, the Cardiopulmonary Science and Rural and Community Health programs have won awards for being the best in the nation, the Audiology and Speech Pathology programs are nationally ranked, etc.

Thanks, BucDoctor. That ETSU degree should be something that's a matter of pride, not put down. I'm sorry you feel this way about your degree, Lover.

A degree, from anywhere, was a source of pride back in the fifties...now that it is something that practically everyone acquires and as a result has lost it's speciality. At least in my opinion.

(05-01-2009 12:05 PM)Goldfinger Wrote:  A degree, from anywhere, was a source of pride back in the fifties...now that it is something that practically everyone acquires and as a result has lost it's speciality. At least in my opinion.

Unfortunately facts don't substantiate your opinion.

Percentage of Americans with at least a Bachelor's degree (2007 data from the U.S Census Bureau) 27%

Not to downplay the role of community colleges and technical education, but the standard for this measure is the Bachelors degree not the Associate Degree.

Yes and what age groups does that 27% cover?