(02-21-2009 04:06 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(02-21-2009 03:34 PM)Tripster Wrote:  .

I am just sorry that "Obama Mama" didn't choose to Abort.

Quote:Allowing the choice of abortion is the largest tax saving measure every proposed by Government. If those that ***** and complain about the Gov't taking their tax $'s every figured that out I'd be surprised.

And so will "Killing off the Sick Elderly and the Genetically Imperfect under the Natural Selection Laws of Euthanasia" ...... I mean it is in the 'Sh'tulus Package' after all, so it just HAS TO BE RIGHT.

.

So if you were in terrible pain and were going to die in a few months(or less), you would want to continue to live just because you believe Jesus will save your sorry ass? Not a chance. I don't think "genetically imperfect" should be killed(hey, I don't want you killed-just to get help for your mental problems) but I can see where there could be cases one can make a case for.

You are one Ignorant and Selfishly SMALL Man Robert. (& I use the term 'Man' lightly in your case)

You are a Disgrace to the Human Race and a Fool to boot.

I have faced death more times than I want to remember and I am not afraid of it.

And YES, God and His Son Jesus Christ will take care of me - - In life or in Death .... see I believe in THE One Real God Robert.

What a shame life is wasted on one such as you ....

.

I challenge any pro-lifer here to explain to me, using science (in particular chemistry and biology) how a fertilized egg is even remotely similar to a baby ... or even a fetus at later stages.

Note I said using science. Keep your book allegedly written about the life of a guy born of a virgin impregnated by God .... to yourself.

I'm not sure what your looking for. There is nothing remotely similar between a new born and an old fart like me. I didn't begin cell division and growth after those overhead fluorescent lights hit me.

(02-21-2009 04:25 PM)Tripster Wrote:  

(02-21-2009 04:06 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(02-21-2009 03:34 PM)Tripster Wrote:  .

I am just sorry that "Obama Mama" didn't choose to Abort.

Quote:Allowing the choice of abortion is the largest tax saving measure every proposed by Government. If those that ***** and complain about the Gov't taking their tax $'s every figured that out I'd be surprised.

And so will "Killing off the Sick Elderly and the Genetically Imperfect under the Natural Selection Laws of Euthanasia" ...... I mean it is in the 'Sh'tulus Package' after all, so it just HAS TO BE RIGHT.

.

So if you were in terrible pain and were going to die in a few months(or less), you would want to continue to live just because you believe Jesus will save your sorry ass? Not a chance. I don't think "genetically imperfect" should be killed(hey, I don't want you killed-just to get help for your mental problems) but I can see where there could be cases one can make a case for.

You are one Ignorant and Selfishly SMALL Man Robert. (& I use the term 'Man' lightly in your case)

You are a Disgrace to the Human Race and a Fool to boot.

I have faced death more times than I want to remember and I am not afraid of it.

And YES, God and His Son Jesus Christ will take care of me - - In life or in Death .... see I believe in THE One Real God Robert.

What a shame life is wasted on one such as you ....

.

How's Jebus going to take it when he sees you've been worshipping false idols in your sig. line?

(02-21-2009 07:07 PM)GRPunk Wrote:  How's Jebus going to take it when he sees you've been worshipping false idols in your sig. line?

Recognizing the anti-christ and worshipping him are two differant things.

Anointing a mortal with a crown of thorns? Do you really want to take that chance?

(02-21-2009 07:07 PM)GRPunk Wrote:  How's Jebus going to take it when he sees you've been worshiping false idols in your sig. line?

Quote: Anointing a mortal with a crown of thorns? Do you really want to take that chance?

I didn't create the Photo, it is plastered all over the Internet as are others far worse in theme. I did throw in a few attributes for effect.

If you knew anything about Christianity, you would Immediately Recognize that the Cross is "Upside Down" .... I will let you learn what that means on your own. And I surely don't worship that fool whose face shines in my little jib photo like millions of you do.

And just to toss out a Present Day Contrast to Christianity, I SURELY SURELY don't worship "Jihadi Allie" who calls for the Rape and Beating of Innocent Women, the Wanton Slaughter of Anyone who doesn't believe in Jihadi Allie's sick ways, or the Beheading of So-Called Infidels.

My beliefs are mine and are personal .... if I mention them here, so what ?? Post any Over Zealous Fundamentalist Murdering Christian writings I have made on this Forum .... my way is pretty much mentioning Christianity regarding a certain issue and I usually try to do it in a "Passing, not an Overbearing" way.

I don't hold Swords to peoples throats and force them to choose between my beliefs and their beliefs and then Saw Off Their Heads when they refuse me.

And if you disagree with me, I am not coming with a bunch of Cowards dressed in Scarfs and Hoods hiding my face to Saw Off Your Head .... it is your Eternity, believe what ever you want - - I don't care about your Religion.

A Fundamentalist Radical Muslim can walk around all day long with a Prayer Rug over his shoulder and drop down 5 Times a day in the middle of an Interstate Highway and Pray to Jihadi Allie and you best stop for him or it is Old Sparky for you ... I stand on a Street Corner with a Christian Bible in my hand not saying a single word and I have to worry if I am going to be mauled in my OWN DAMN COUNTRY for it !!!!!

It is my understanding that the "Real Teachings of Allah" are not anything close to the way the Fundamentalist Murderers Read it - Allah says "To kill ANY Innocent Human, is the same as Killing All Humankind" ... so they are Practicing a False Doctrine created to make a Means to an End - - an End they Desire, not the True End Allah Desires and you guys aren't offended by it, but you act offended at my little jib image .... care to REFUTE that ????

If you need help with the Koran [sic], I trust Paul to give you honest and unbiased information from within it - - he has studied it.

I DO NOT Worship Idols .... I am not Catholic .... I worship the Holy Trinity and there are no Idols for that.

If you guys desire to watch your Family Members, who have been deemed "LESSER HUMANS" by your Government, suffer from an illness needlessly when there are treatments to help and/or cures or you are heartlessly bent enough to buy into this Crap that Killing Them Off is best for all Other Humans, you are some sick, worthless, oxygen thieves.

Thank the God in whom I trust that I am going to be out of this world soon - - I really don't want to be here when they hand you freaks the reins of power .... they have really brainwashed you to death.

And I would rather believe the way I believe and be wrong in the end than to not believe and God be real ..... who does it harm that I have faith in God and His Son ??? If it hurts you, then that sounds like a pretty goofy personal problem you need to mature up and live with.

.

(02-21-2009 08:11 PM)Tripster Wrote:  

(02-21-2009 07:07 PM)GRPunk Wrote:  How's Jebus going to take it when he sees you've been worshiping false idols in your sig. line?

Quote: Anointing a mortal with a crown of thorns? Do you really want to take that chance?

I didn't create the Photo, it is plastered all over the Internet as are others far worse in theme. I did throw in a few attributes for effect.

If you knew anything about Christianity, you would Immediately Recognize that the Cross is "Upside Down" .... I will let you learn what that means on your own. And I surely don't worship that fool whose face shines in my little jib photo like millions of you do.

And just to toss out a Present Day Contrast to Christianity, I SURELY SURELY don't worship "Jihadi Allie" who calls for the Rape and Beating of Innocent Women, the Wanton Slaughter of Anyone who doesn't believe in Jihadi Allie's sick ways, or the Beheading of So-Called Infidels.

My beliefs are mine and are personal .... if I mention them here, so what ?? Post any Over Zealous Fundamentalist Murdering Christian writings I have made on this Forum .... my way is pretty much mentioning Christianity regarding a certain issue and I usually try to do it in a "Passing, not an Overbearing" way.

I don't hold Swords to peoples throats and force them to choose between my beliefs and their beliefs and then Saw Off Their Heads when they refuse me.

And if you disagree with me, I am not coming with a bunch of Cowards dressed in Scarfs and Hoods hiding my face to Saw Off Your Head .... it is your Eternity, believe what ever you want - - I don't care about your Religion.

A Fundamentalist Radical Muslim can walk around all day long with a Prayer Rug over his shoulder and drop down 5 Times a day in the middle of an Interstate Highway and Pray to Jihadi Allie and you best stop for him or it is Old Sparky for you ... I stand on a Street Corner with a Christian Bible in my hand not saying a single word and I have to worry if I am going to be mauled in my OWN DAMN COUNTRY for it !!!!!

It is my understanding that the "Real Teachings of Allah" are not anything close to the way the Fundamentalist Murderers Read it - Allah says "To kill ANY Innocent Human, is the same as Killing All Humankind" ... so they are Practicing a False Doctrine created to make a Means to an End - - an End they Desire, not the True End Allah Desires and you guys aren't offended by it, but you act offended at my little jib image .... care to REFUTE that ????

If you need help with the Koran [sic], I trust Paul to give you honest and unbiased information from within it - - he has studied it.

I DO NOT Worship Idols .... I am not Catholic .... I worship the Holy Trinity and there are no Idols for that.

If you guys desire to watch your Family Members, who have been deemed "LESSER HUMANS" by your Government, suffer from an illness needlessly when there are treatments to help and/or cures or you are heartlessly bent enough to buy into this Crap that Killing Them Off is best for all Other Humans, you are some sick, worthless, oxygen thieves.

Thank the God in whom I trust that I am going to be out of this world soon - - I really don't want to be here when they hand you freaks the reins of power .... they have really brainwashed you to death.

And I would rather believe the way I believe and be wrong in the end than to not believe and God be real ..... who does it harm that I have faith in God and His Son ??? If it hurts you, then that sounds like a pretty goofy personal problem you need to mature up and live with.

.

tl;dr

(02-21-2009 06:08 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  I challenge any pro-lifer here to explain to me, using science (in particular chemistry and biology) how a fertilized egg is even remotely similar to a baby ... or even a fetus at later stages.

Note I said using science. Keep your book allegedly written about the life of a guy born of a virgin impregnated by God .... to yourself.

I think GTS may have hit on something here. There are 3 different sects of our society that try to explain what a human is - science, religion and the government. When the government is on the lean side of an arguement it passess a law that shows it isn't.

(02-21-2009 07:06 PM)Paul M Wrote:  I'm not sure what your looking for. There is nothing remotely similar between a new born and an old fart like me. I didn't begin cell division and growth after those overhead fluorescent lights hit me.

Did you exist the moment momma's egg became fertilized? Without a brain? Without even a heart or circulatory system? Anybody who claims human existance begins at conception is simply stupid or ill-informed. There is a POTENTIAL for the existance of a human ... but one does not exist yet.

Obviously this begs the question of where do you draw the line. For me it's when the brain begins forming. I think therefore I am. Without the brain, the human body is meaningless and without existance as we know it.

(02-21-2009 10:49 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  Did you exist the moment momma's egg became fertilized? Without a brain? Without even a heart or circulatory system? Anybody who claims human existance begins at conception is simply stupid or ill-informed. There is a POTENTIAL for the existance of a human ... but one does not exist yet.

Obviously this begs the question of where do you draw the line. For me it's when the brain begins forming. I think therefore I am. Without the brain, the human body is meaningless and without existance as we know it.

GTS - - I think this is more about "When a Soul Begins" (or comes into existence) for some, more than if there are 10 Fingers and 10 Toes immediately after the sperm touches the egg.

If a Scientific Person looks at it from a purely analytical view, he would say life begins at 'Dot Time Frame after Conception', where a Theologian will say Life Begins when the Soul Begins and for most of them, that is when the Egg Becomes Fertilized.

So there are two camps offering contrasting ideas that both have weight and merit to their Proponents and Opponents.

.

(02-21-2009 10:49 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(02-21-2009 07:06 PM)Paul M Wrote:  I'm not sure what your looking for. There is nothing remotely similar between a new born and an old fart like me. I didn't begin cell division and growth after those overhead fluorescent lights hit me.

Did you exist the moment momma's egg became fertilized? Without a brain? Without even a heart or circulatory system? Anybody who claims human existance begins at conception is simply stupid or ill-informed. There is a POTENTIAL for the existance of a human ... but one does not exist yet.

Obviously this begs the question of where do you draw the line. For me it's when the brain begins forming. I think therefore I am. Without the brain, the human body is meaningless and without existance as we know it.

A jellyfish has no brain. Or a heart or blood or a respiratory system. I would find it difficult to argue it doesn't exist.

But if when the brain begins forming does it for you, that's only a couple of weeks after conception.



The second week marks the beginning of the embryonic period, when the baby's brain, spinal cord, heart and other organs begin to form. Your baby is now 1/25 of an inch long.

At week three, your baby is 1/17 of an inch long — about the size of the tip of a pen.

This week, your baby's heart and circulatory system are taking shape. Your baby's blood vessels will complete a circuit, and his or her heart will begin to beat. Although you won't be able to hear it yet, the motion of your baby's beating heart may be detected with an ultrasound exam.

With these changes, blood circulation begins — making the circulatory system the first functioning organ system.

At eight weeks your baby's vital organs have a solid foundation. The embryonic tail has disappeared completely, and your baby has fully separated fingers and toes. The bones of your baby's skeleton begin to form.

This week, your baby's brain will produce almost 250,000 new neurons every minute.

(02-21-2009 06:08 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  I challenge any pro-lifer here to explain to me, using science (in particular chemistry and biology) how a fertilized egg is even remotely similar to a baby ... or even a fetus at later stages.

Note I said using science. Keep your book allegedly written about the life of a guy born of a virgin impregnated by God .... to yourself.

THat would be your mistake. THey don't believe in science.

(02-20-2009 08:18 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(02-20-2009 03:44 PM)Zipfanatik Wrote:  

(02-19-2009 11:05 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  I've said it before and I'll say it again - What a woman does with her body is up to her, her family, her doctor and her spititual leader.

Here's how reproduction works: A woman conceives, then a new human forms inside her womb, with its own body. And that's the way reproduction works.

Thanks for the lesson. What's your point?

To educate and dispel ignorance, where possible.

(02-22-2009 12:31 AM)Paul M Wrote:  A jellyfish has no brain. Or a heart or blood or a respiratory system. I would find it difficult to argue it doesn't exist.

But if when the brain begins forming does it for you, that's only a couple of weeks after conception.

The second week marks the beginning of the embryonic period, when the baby's brain, spinal cord, heart and other organs begin to form. Your baby is now 1/25 of an inch long.

At week three, your baby is 1/17 of an inch long — about the size of the tip of a pen.

This week, your baby's heart and circulatory system are taking shape. Your baby's blood vessels will complete a circuit, and his or her heart will begin to beat. Although you won't be able to hear it yet, the motion of your baby's beating heart may be detected with an ultrasound exam.

With these changes, blood circulation begins — making the circulatory system the first functioning organ system.

At eight weeks your baby's vital organs have a solid foundation. The embryonic tail has disappeared completely, and your baby has fully separated fingers and toes. The bones of your baby's skeleton begin to form.

This week, your baby's brain will produce almost 250,000 new neurons every minute.

That's the best you could come up with? A jellyfish has a crude nervous system. Moreover, we humans have no problem killing scores of jellyfish ... yet call it murder to kill just one of our own. Invalid analogy.

And your above embryonic stage descriptions are lacking. Here's what wikipedia says, which more or less matches up to my Biology textbook:

Quote:Week 1-3 5-7 days after fertilization, the blastula attaches to the wall of the uterus (endometrium). When it comes into contact with the endometrium it performs implantation. Implantation connections between the mother and the embryo will begin to form, including the umbilical cord. The embryo's growth centers around an axis, which will become the spine and spinal cord. The brain, spinal cord, heart, and gastrointestinal tract begin to form.[2]

Week 4-5 Chemicals produced by the embryo stop the woman's menstrual cycle. Neurogenesis is underway, showing brain activity at about the 6th week.[citation needed] The heart will begin to beat around the same time. Limb buds appear where the arms and legs will grow later. Organogenesis begins. The head represents about one half of the embryo's axial length, and more than half of the embryo's mass. The brain develops into five areas. Tissue formation occurs that develops into the vertebra and some other bones. The heart starts to beat and blood starts to flow.[2]

Week 6-8 Myogenesis and neurogenesis have progressed to where the embryo is capable of motion, and the eyes begin to form. Organogenesis and growth continue. Hair has started to form along with all essential organs. Facial features are beginning to develop. At the end of the 8th week, the embryonic stage is over, and the fetal stage begins.[2]

So being extremely conservative, Week 4-5 is the deadline by my standards (existance of a brain ... "I think therefore I am"). Four to five weeks is plenty of time for any person -- even somebody who conceived just after their period -- to discover something is up and take action. Note that while the brain begins to form at some point in weeks 1-3 ... it does not even remotely exist yet. We're talking about something you cannot see without visual assistance. "Begins to form" simply means stem cells begin to multiply. That's it. There's no itsy bitsy microbrain. It simply doesn't exist yet.

(02-21-2009 11:15 PM)Tripster Wrote:  GTS - - I think this is more about "When a Soul Begins" (or comes into existence) for some, more than if there are 10 Fingers and 10 Toes immediately after the sperm touches the egg.

If a Scientific Person looks at it from a purely analytical view, he would say life begins at 'Dot Time Frame after Conception', where a Theologian will say Life Begins when the Soul Begins and for most of them, that is when the Egg Becomes Fertilized.

So there are two camps offering contrasting ideas that both have weight and merit to their Proponents and Opponents.

Religion or "theology" are nice ... but have absolutely no basis in modern law, which is what we're talking about here.

(02-21-2009 06:08 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  I challenge any pro-lifer here to explain to me, using science (in particular chemistry and biology) how a fertilized egg is even remotely similar to a baby ... or even a fetus at later stages.

Note I said using science. Keep your book allegedly written about the life of a guy born of a virgin impregnated by God .... to yourself.

They all contain a complete set of (biochemical) DNA and are in the process of human development. I would challenge anyone to explain to me why I shouldn't be allowed to terminate my 2 year old toddler if I so choose...why should it be protected under the law if it's not fully developed yet?

(02-22-2009 03:07 PM)Zipfanatik Wrote:  

(02-21-2009 06:08 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  I challenge any pro-lifer here to explain to me, using science (in particular chemistry and biology) how a fertilized egg is even remotely similar to a baby ... or even a fetus at later stages.

Note I said using science. Keep your book allegedly written about the life of a guy born of a virgin impregnated by God .... to yourself.

They all contain a complete set of (biochemical) DNA and are in the process of human development. I would challenge anyone to explain to me why I shouldn't be allowed to terminate my 2 year old toddler if I so choose...why should it be protected under the law if it's not fully developed yet?

Contains DNA? So you're guilty of murder every time you kill a skin cell which has DNA in it? So I should expect you to be guilty for life by the time you're doing reading this?

Are you really incapable of understanding the difference between the brain at 4 to 5 weeks in the embryonic stage vs the fetal stage vs a born baby? Is that really too much of an observational/scientific leap for you to take? Do I need illustrated pictures?

POTENTIAL to exist IS NOT the same as EXISTANCE.

(02-22-2009 11:43 AM)Zipfanatik Wrote:  

(02-20-2009 08:18 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(02-20-2009 03:44 PM)Zipfanatik Wrote:  

(02-19-2009 11:05 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  I've said it before and I'll say it again - What a woman does with her body is up to her, her family, her doctor and her spititual leader.

Here's how reproduction works: A woman conceives, then a new human forms inside her womb, with its own body. And that's the way reproduction works.

Thanks for the lesson. What's your point?

To educate and dispel ignorance, where possible.

So anyone not adhering to your point of view is uneducated and ignorant? Better take a look in the mirror Bub.

(02-22-2009 02:58 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(02-22-2009 12:31 AM)Paul M Wrote:  A jellyfish has no brain. Or a heart or blood or a respiratory system. I would find it difficult to argue it doesn't exist.

But if when the brain begins forming does it for you, that's only a couple of weeks after conception.

The second week marks the beginning of the embryonic period, when the baby's brain, spinal cord, heart and other organs begin to form. Your baby is now 1/25 of an inch long.

At week three, your baby is 1/17 of an inch long — about the size of the tip of a pen.

This week, your baby's heart and circulatory system are taking shape. Your baby's blood vessels will complete a circuit, and his or her heart will begin to beat. Although you won't be able to hear it yet, the motion of your baby's beating heart may be detected with an ultrasound exam.

With these changes, blood circulation begins — making the circulatory system the first functioning organ system.

At eight weeks your baby's vital organs have a solid foundation. The embryonic tail has disappeared completely, and your baby has fully separated fingers and toes. The bones of your baby's skeleton begin to form.

This week, your baby's brain will produce almost 250,000 new neurons every minute.

That's the best you could come up with? A jellyfish has a crude nervous system. Moreover, we humans have no problem killing scores of jellyfish ... yet call it murder to kill just one of our own. Invalid analogy.

And your above embryonic stage descriptions are lacking. Here's what wikipedia says, which more or less matches up to my Biology textbook:

Quote:Week 1-3 5-7 days after fertilization, the blastula attaches to the wall of the uterus (endometrium). When it comes into contact with the endometrium it performs implantation. Implantation connections between the mother and the embryo will begin to form, including the umbilical cord. The embryo's growth centers around an axis, which will become the spine and spinal cord. The brain, spinal cord, heart, and gastrointestinal tract begin to form.[2]

Week 4-5 Chemicals produced by the embryo stop the woman's menstrual cycle. Neurogenesis is underway, showing brain activity at about the 6th week.[citation needed] The heart will begin to beat around the same time. Limb buds appear where the arms and legs will grow later. Organogenesis begins. The head represents about one half of the embryo's axial length, and more than half of the embryo's mass. The brain develops into five areas. Tissue formation occurs that develops into the vertebra and some other bones. The heart starts to beat and blood starts to flow.[2]

Week 6-8 Myogenesis and neurogenesis have progressed to where the embryo is capable of motion, and the eyes begin to form. Organogenesis and growth continue. Hair has started to form along with all essential organs. Facial features are beginning to develop. At the end of the 8th week, the embryonic stage is over, and the fetal stage begins.[2]

So being extremely conservative, Week 4-5 is the deadline by my standards (existance of a brain ... "I think therefore I am"). Four to five weeks is plenty of time for any person -- even somebody who conceived just after their period -- to discover something is up and take action. Note that while the brain begins to form at some point in weeks 1-3 ... it does not even remotely exist yet. We're talking about something you cannot see without visual assistance. "Begins to form" simply means stem cells begin to multiply. That's it. There's no itsy bitsy microbrain. It simply doesn't exist yet.

I was taking you literally with the jellyfish. No brain, no existance as we know it. A crude nervous system is not a brain. I'm sure your aware there are many species without a brain. Nothing to argue about, I was just answering.

I don't know why you think my embryonic stage descriptions are lacking. They match yours. I just accounted for the couple of weeks of pregnancy that a woman is not pregnant. Before fertilization.

Quote:Week 1: Getting ready

It may seem strange, but you're not actually pregnant the first week or two of the time allotted to your pregnancy. Yes, you read that correctly!

Conception typically occurs about two weeks after your period begins. To calculate your due date, your health care provider will count ahead 40 weeks from the start of your last period. This means your period is counted as part of your pregnancy — even though you weren't pregnant at the time.

Your post includes this "Week 1-3 5-7 days after fertilization". I don't know why doctors count "kind of pregnant" or " about to be pregnant". Your week 4 is the same as my week 2. I just subtracted the 2 weeks the woman isn't pregnant.

I also was answering your original baseline "For me it's when the brain begins forming". You chose to change (or clairify) that. Fine.

Anyway, everyone decides for themselve. For me it's conception, for you, whether it's 2 weeks or 4, not a big differance, it's a brain forming.

I don't believe either of us are stupid or ill-informed. We just come to differing conclusions (opinions).

The link for my original pregnancy timeline.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/prenata...THOD=print