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You are right, that was dumb luck....

It wasn't dumb luck, though, getting Holt and Johnson for the next class, though.
And it wasn't dumb luck getting Knight for the year after

It also wasn't dumb luck getting Avila or Cass. That took some work. Cass was lucky that he was in the area, but there's a lot of work there, too.
And some of the other juco's they are looking at are very highly regarded. They are working hard to get those done.

It's easy for us in the media or for the fans in the stands to say blow it up and start from scratch with high-school kids.... But, if a contract and the status of the athletic director leads a coach to believe he has to put a winning team on the court as soon as possible, then he's going to do whatever he feels he needs to do to win right away ... If that gets to the next contract or extension and some sense of comfort in his job, then he has the opportunity to try another strategy with recruiting.

The blow-it-up-now strategy is much more high risk. The higher odds for success are to keep trying to get the best athletes you can. They believe they are doing it with a mix of high school and top juco's, and leaning a little more to the juco side in that mix.

Do you blame him? My guess is that he wants to build as good a resume as possible to make it as hard as he can for the next AD to go in another direction.

Right or wrong, people under pressure have to make difficult decisions. This is what Ford and his staff have decided to do, and I get it.

Also, I don't agree that the walls have come crashing down.
This team isn't as good as I once thought it could be. There are some serious deficiencies inside. But Simpson is getting better. That's a big key. If the perimeter play starts living up to its potential, nobody is going to want to play this team in March.

Ford and his staff have tried a lot of things to make this work with some mismatched piecees. He appears to have missed on a few of his recruits. Hit on a few others. But they are getting better. Maybe they get better faster with a veteran coach. Maybe not. They are getting better, though, and that's what matters. And I like the recruiting they've done to add to those parts for next year. Maybe I'm too much of an optimist.

Dave, I get it. I get that Geno is worried about success under a new boss with less patience. I even get that I'm in the minority by willing to hang in for rebuilding. Geno feels like he has to win now and doesn't want to take the long road. He's the coach, I'm a fan- guess which opinion on recruiting wins the day? Regardless, I like Geno and hope he has a long and successful KSU career under any circumstances.

I just disagree with the premise that we can't compete for HS recruits because there's no guarentee our HC will be around in 4-5 years. Outside of Coach K and the guy at Gonzaga, there aren't many DI coaches with 30 year mortgages. Your citation of dismissals after modest success supports the point, as does your citation of Holt, Johnson and Young as quality four years guys willing to call KSU home. Just wish we had more of them, but that's my opinion.

Not going to make this an NU board, but as it's my graduate school, I do follow them. By your logic, Carmody should not have been able to recruit anyone last year as he was at the end of his contract with a new AD starting in April- Jim Phelps from NIU- and a new President starting shortly after. I don't care why he landed that great class, just glad he did. As far as "they don't have aspirations to be more than they are", I can certainly understand why it looks that way. I'm just going to keep that comment from some of your Medill brothers, as they'd argue the case far longer than your patience would allow.

(02-02-2009 09:46 PM)DavidCarducci Wrote:  one more bit of info with regards to coaches leaving because they move up:

Bob Donewald, wins the MAC championship 1998, beats Clemson in first round of tournament ... New AD hired in 1999 when he was 13-13 ... Fired.

Dan Hipsher, wins league at Akron, two years later, new AD comes in ... Fired.

Larry Hunter ... wins championship, fired four years later with 18-19-20 wins in the remaining years before the exempt tournament era when you got more games. New AD ... Fired.

Stan Joplin ... second winningest program in league behind KSU in the last decade. New AD ... fired.

Jay Smith ... two conference championships, first round NCAA win, within 3 years. He struggles, new AD ... fired

Meanwhile, Northwestern has never been to an NCAA tournament in school history. It's an academic school that just happens to play sports. Northwestern not changing AD's. No pressure. He's been there for 10 years without winning. Why would any recruits think he was going anywhere?

In the MAC, three coaches hired this year, too, and when KSU is supposed to be the premier program, Toledo hires a guy for $300,000 for five years, Ohio hires Groce for five years and just under $300,000 in total package ... KSU hires its new guy for 4 years at $200,000. Not the same commitment.

I know of one coach who told a recruit "I make more money than Kent's entire staff put together, and I'm going to be here when you graduate ... where do you want to go?"

Now, that's not my argument, but it does add to the argument.

There's reason to believe Ford will be around if he doesn't win soon.

Meanwhile, Ford's staff still signed the No. 2 high school point guard in state of Ohio in Holt and the No. 1 wing with Scooter Johnson, and the commitment they got from Kenny Knight, he's the No. 2 power forward ... No. 1 power forward was Sullinger's brother, who is No. 1 power forward in country. In Holt, the No. 1 point guard went to the Atlantic 10. KSU isn't going to compete with that.

Pretty good, really.

(02-02-2009 10:35 PM)DavidCarducci Wrote:  But, if a contract and the status of the athletic director leads a coach to believe he has to put a winning team on the court as soon as possible, then he's going to do whatever he feels he needs to do to win right away ... If that gets to the next contract or extension and some sense of comfort in his job, then he has the opportunity to try another strategy with recruiting.

Do you blame him? My guess is that he wants to build as good a resume as possible to make it as hard as he can for the next AD to go in another direction.

I hate to be the sucker at the table, but did Kennedy announce his retirement already?

(02-02-2009 10:43 PM)FlashFan Wrote:  I just disagree with the premise that we can't compete for HS recruits because there's no guarentee our HC will be around in 4-5 years. Outside of Coach K and the guy at Gonzaga, there aren't many DI coaches with 30 year mortgages. Your citation of dismissals after modest success supports the point, as does your citation of Holt, Johnson and Young as quality four years guys willing to call KSU home. Just wish we had more of them, but that's my opinion.

Not going to make this an NU board, but as it's my graduate school, I do follow them. By your logic, Carmody should not have been able to recruit anyone last year as he was at the end of his contract with a new AD starting in April- Jim Phelps from NIU- and a new President starting shortly after. I don't care why he landed that great class, just glad he did. As far as "they don't care if they win", I can certainly understand why it looks that way. I'm just going to keep that comment from some of your Medill brothers, as they'd argue the case far longer than your patience would allow.

FlashFan,

You don't get it, though, in this case.

My premise has never been that Kent State can't compete for high school recruits because there is no guarantee the coach won't be around for four or five years.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying it doesn't help.... But it is so far from my point.

I'm saying they have gone after some of the best high school recruits in the state ... And landed them!!!!

By far, the main point in my argument is that because of the lack of security in his job ... and a lot of factors go into this, from his previous experience at Ohio with an AD change, to what has happened to coaches around the MAC when there has been an AD change, to the length of his contract, to the inability or unwillingness to commit to him the way Ohio and Toledo did to their coaches ... he is worried that he has to put the best possible product on the court as he can as soon as possible.

He's not ignoring the future. If he was, he and his staff wouldn't have worked as hard as it did to get Holt and Johnson who are ranked at the top of their class in the state ... or to get Knight early (something that never happens at this level)...

They think they hit big with those guys. Now they feel they need to hit big with more experienced guys who will be ready to contribute sooner.

Imagine if they had recruited another Grimsley, and had to play him right now instead of Simpson, who is getting to be pretty darned good right now. They'd be in big trouble.

That doesn't mean Grimsley and another player just like him wouldn't be ready to play two, maybe three years down the road. The Grimsley KSU has, though, is not ready to play right now. And I actually really like the kid. He's just not ready.

The fact is, when Laing steps down, the new guy may very well want to hire his own coach, even if Geno wins 20 games next year. It happened to him with Larry Hunter in Ohio.
From what I gather, Ford wants to make sure he has as good a resume as possible to make that scenario as difficult as possible.

That's my only argument.

There is no premise that they can't recruit high school kids because of the 4-year contract. I do think it's a bit more difficult, or at least I know its used against them, whether the kids buy into the tactic or not. Anyway, they are recruiting TOP high school talent. That's just not their primary avenue for right now.

I'm guessing if you asked Ford, he'd probably tell you he'd love to get more high school kids. The 4-year contract is more of a scare to him than it is to the kids. It's an issue of HIM wanting to be here to coach THEM, rather than their wanting him to be around to coach them.

(02-02-2009 10:47 PM)jbails0881 Wrote:  

(02-02-2009 10:35 PM)DavidCarducci Wrote:  But, if a contract and the status of the athletic director leads a coach to believe he has to put a winning team on the court as soon as possible, then he's going to do whatever he feels he needs to do to win right away ... If that gets to the next contract or extension and some sense of comfort in his job, then he has the opportunity to try another strategy with recruiting.

Do you blame him? My guess is that he wants to build as good a resume as possible to make it as hard as he can for the next AD to go in another direction.

I hate to be the sucker at the table, but did Kennedy announce his retirement already?

No, but even in an interview I had with Lester Lefton last week, KSU's president said "it's no secret" he'll be retiring in the not-to-distant future.

Couple of things...

Why in the world would anyone, especially a rookie head coach, scrap a blueprint that was good enough to win 20 plus games the last decade? Only if something had broken within the program that was very obvious and public. That did not happen. No one would support that otherwise.

The other point is this discussion is like the "back-up quarterback syndrome" which many people in NE Ohio suffer from. The most popular guy in Cleveland is always the Brown's back-up quarterback. Fans are not happy with what they see on the field/court, so some other player/coach/philosophy must be better. And fairly reasonable arguements can be made to support their viewpoint because it's easy to compare their hypothetical better way against a known negative reality.

[quote='FlashFan' pid='3949311' dateline='1233632612']

By your logic, Carmody should not have been able to recruit anyone last year as he was at the end of his contract with a new AD starting in April- Jim Phelps from NIU- and a new President starting shortly after. I don't care why he landed that great class, just glad he did. As far as "they don't have aspirations to be more than they are", I can certainly understand why it looks that way. I'm just going to keep that comment from some of your Medill brothers, as they'd argue the case far longer than your patience would allow.


That's actually not my logic at all...

I forgot about the new AD... But its just such a completely different situation than Geno's.

And again, I'm not arguing that you can't get high school talent... so that's not part of my logic at all, either.

You can get high school talent, good talent, with short years. Can it be used against you in recruiting, sure. Doesn't mean the negative recruiting works. It's just out there. And again, not my argument.

Northwestern and Kent State couldn't be more completely different situations, though.

Now, if Carmody was worried about his status with the new AD coming in, he may have been tempted to go out and get a bunch of juco's to help him put a winning team together ... but at Northwestern, bringing in juco's for a chance to win is more likely to get you fired than losing with a good class.

I'll give Carmody plenty of credit for bringing in his best class. I think Ford and his staff deserve a lot of credit for bringing in the recruiting classes they are ... No. 2 point guard in Ohio, No. 2 power forward in Ohio as a junior ... guys who are rated only behind a point guard going to the A-10 and the No. 1 recruit in the entire nation... that's getting some TOP high school talent.

(02-02-2009 11:00 PM)Dunbar,AtTheTopOfTheHill Wrote:  Couple of things...

Why in the world would anyone, especially a rookie head coach, scrap a blueprint that was good enough to win 20 plus games the last decade? Only if something had broken within the program that was very obvious and public. That did not happen. No one would support that otherwise.

The other point is this discussion is like the "back-up quarterback syndrome" which many people in NE Ohio suffer from. The most popular guy in Cleveland is always the Brown's back-up quarterback. Fans are not happy with what they see on the field/court, so some other player/coach/philosophy must be better. And fairly reasonable arguements can be made to support their viewpoint because it's easy to compare their hypothetical better way against a known negative reality.

You are absolutely right ...

And to be honest, with regards to the philosophy ... I think Geno would admit there are negatives to the route he is taking. Apparently it is what he feels he needs to do right now, though. You pick the route you think will work and you roll the dice. In this case, he think he is getting his money into the pot with a better hand than he would with all or mostly high-school recruits. I can't blame him for that.

Akron has taken the four-year player route to the extreme, and that has not won them a MAC title. Now that everyone from Travis, Joyce, Wood, Dials (he was a transfer but should have been at Akron in the first place) and Middleton, Dambrot is going into his second cycle with nothing but a couple NIT appearances. Charlie Coles did get Miami to the dance using four-year players, but he also came up short with Juby Johnson and Horace, etc.

The points about lack of chemistry and having guys that don't fit together on the court are well-taken. Ford would probably agree with that being a bigger problem than he anticipated. However, the classes look fairly good if they even lose one of these guys, which they usually lose one somewhere.

My other point is this: for everyone who wants them to recruit four-year players, do you know the quality of HS basketball and particularly in Ohio. This is not football where quality guys get overlooked every year. Aside from the top 20 players in the state, Ohio HS basketball is not great. KSU is getting better players as sophomores when they transfer or go JUCO than they could get by and large by developing a kid from Ravenna or Wadsworth.

(02-02-2009 11:16 PM)KStud Wrote:  Akron has taken the four-year player route to the extreme, and that has not won them a MAC title. Now that everyone from Travis, Joyce, Wood, Dials (he was a transfer but should have been at Akron in the first place) and Middleton, Dambrot is going into his second cycle with nothing but a couple NIT appearances. Charlie Coles did get Miami to the dance using four-year players, but he also came up short with Juby Johnson and Horace, etc.

The points about lack of chemistry and having guys that don't fit together on the court are well-taken. Ford would probably agree with that being a bigger problem than he anticipated. However, the classes look fairly good if they even lose one of these guys, which they usually lose one somewhere.

My other point is this: for everyone who wants them to recruit four-year players, do you know the quality of HS basketball and particularly in Ohio. This is not football where quality guys get overlooked every year. Aside from the top 20 players in the state, Ohio HS basketball is not great. KSU is getting better players as sophomores when they transfer or go JUCO than they could get by and large by developing a kid from Ravenna or Wadsworth.

Great points, too...

Really, there haven't been many "elite" high school players on the better Kent State teams over the years. They've found a lot of hidden gems. They've missed with a lot of the recruits, too.
Also, remember, Ford got the job in March, brought in an entirely new staff, lost one recruit (which was fine) who decided to go with Jim to TCU. On a quick turnaround, they landed a nice juco find in Simpson and at least one nice high schooler in Greene ... both signed here late in the game.
And then Tyree was a nice late add.
Hopefully Henry-Ala and Grimsley help. Even if they don't, it's not a bad job on that first class.

OK Dave, I understand every point that you have made. I can not argue your points because they are probably valid. You have some inside that we do not have. I am not a doomsdayer because I see help on the way. Plus, this team has some more upside to go.

(02-03-2009 12:25 AM)GFlash68 Wrote:  OK Dave, I understand every point that you have made. I can not argue your points because they are probably valid. You have some inside that we do not have. I am not a doomsdayer because I see help on the way. Plus, this team has some more upside to go.

I know you aren't a doomsayer. It's also easy to get frustrated and natural to wonder about different ways things could be better. Believe me, I understand.

I have a lot of respect for Ford, as I did for Christian. I'm probably more apt to give them the benefit of the doubt because of that. I do believe this is a very good staff, and they'll will get this going in the right direction. I think they already are this year. And I think in three or four years, everyone here will be pretty happy about where this program is.

I actually think we all might have some fun seeing this thing re-load if it works out.

I take it you didn't have an article to write for tomorrow, did you David? Great posts by all upset I missed all the fun.

(02-03-2009 12:37 AM)thanksjim Wrote:  I take it you didn't have an article to write for tomorrow, did you David? Great posts by all upset I missed all the fun.

Actually, just like last year, I'm having a really hard time shaking an illness.
Switched my day off so I could rest today.
Been lying in bed surfing the internet, hoping to get over this crud.

Quote:I'm just saying, they feel right now that they have to try to hit with junior-college players to have a winning season when the next AD comes in. It's a real fear. I understand it. I don't think they want to go as heavy with junior-college, but they feel it is a necessity for right now.

Hope you are feeling better, or at least that yesterday's debate didn't make you feel worse. For the record, I do get your point. Geno must feel enormous pressure to win, especially when a few morons want him fired after nine games as a head coach. He must carry the OU experience with him.

My final post will be that I wish Geno could be more true to his instincts vs. leading out of fear, as your post above suggests might not be the case. My reasons:
1. The new AD will be hired by Lestor Lefton. I can tell you the guy on the second floor of the library cares a whole lot more about grades, graduation rates and good citizenship than 20 win seasons. Lefton is far more inclined to listen to a story about student success as a reason to keep a coach than March Madness. The converse is true. If I were Geno and thought I was getting a new boss, I'd spend this time making sure his boss brought into my student success strategy. So, for as long or as short as players are at KSU, I'd make sure they were studying and graduating. Just harder to do the latter ( not impossible, harder) with JUCOs as they have less time.
2. I'm not opposed to JUCOs, in fact have argued for them. As much as we cite terrific players like Gates and Youngblood, I can list several others in the last five years who were a complete bust. There are no sure bets in recruiting. JUCOs give you a better look at their skills, but as we've seen, they have less time to assimilate on a team and into our strategy. We may lose a four year opportunity on one year (or less) of quality production. Case in point-only 1 out of 3 JUCOs we brought in last year as still with the program, let alone producing. Maybe HS players are not a sure thing, but neither are JUCOS.
3. The point that we can get better skills with JUCOs is dead on, and I've used it myself. They present a great opportunity to catch "second bounce" talent. IMHO, it should not be a core strategy. I'd argue to Geno that if he really doesn't think it's the best long term strategy, this is the perfect time to change it. We can rebuild on top with a great reputation. He's got at least 4 years left... we're not going to buy him out even if we wanted to (which we don't). Does he (we) really want to wait until we have a 10 win season and he's got a year or two on his contract for a change?
4. The fact that we did get best in class HS talent shows opposing recruiting tactics can be overcome. Do coaches say disparaging things about other programs to land a recruit? Every day. We probably have a few gems about competitive programs to sway a kid, too.

At any rate, it's not my job to lead the KSU basketball program, and those who have do a heck of a job. Some of your comments imply that our coaching staff is running a bit scared and letting that fear vs. their better instincts make their decisions. I wish we could give them a stronger vote of confidence.

Great thread, guys. Thanks for the info, David, hope you're feeling better.

Just one quick note: I'm a lot more skeptical of highly-touted recruits who couldn't cut it at bigger schools (Cass, Williams) than I am of JUCO players. JUCOs are often solid guys who just didn't have the grades to get into a D1 school. But it seems like highly-touted players who transfer out of stronger programs to smaller schools don't succeed there, either. I'm going mainly on my experience of watching UK and SEC teams, so I could be wrong, but I just can't think of many big-name players who haven't brought their shortcomings with them to the smaller school.

Dave, if people are misunderstanding your point about the contract making it hard to recruit high school players, it's because that's what you said:

"They probably won't until KSU extends Ford's contract. The four-year deal really hasn't been good. Harder to get better freshmen to commit when they don't know if he'll be there for even the junior or senior years."

I was going to discuss some of the other points you mentioned, but FlashFan really said it best:

"1. The new AD will be hired by Lestor Lefton. I can tell you the guy on the second floor of the library cares a whole lot more about grades, graduation rates and good citizenship than 20 win seasons. Lefton is far more inclined to listen to a story about student success as a reason to keep a coach than March Madness. The converse is true. If I were Geno and thought I was getting a new boss, I'd spend this time making sure his boss brought into my student success strategy... "

As I said before, and FlashFan posted the same thing, the time was right for Geno Ford to correct the mistakes of Jim Christian, who coached every year as if it were his last. That's why you saw the big recruiting holes. That's why KSU had to push a 3-star point guard out the door--because KSU didn't need another guard, they needed someone who could play inside.

Moss, by the way is averaging 9.5 points and 2.5 assists in just over 23 minutes per game against better competition. There's a four-year player that would have had an instant impact at Kent State.

If Ford is worried about building his resume, he should build a program, not a legacy of gambling on high-risk kids hoping for big rewards.

Charlie Weis was all but shown the door after the last two seasons he had at Notre Dame. You know what saved him? Recruiting. He's recruited some of the top classes in the country and the NEW athletics director bought into the notion that the future is bright.

Ford and his staff have recruited two of Ohio's top players in Holt and Johnson. Had they recruited more high school players that would be on campus now, you'd have a heck of a core to build with. Then it becomes easier to take a chance on a JUCO or transfer, because if he doesn't pan out you have options and depth.

Unfortunately, the strategy has been to put all the eggs in the basket of high-risk players (not bad kids, but high-risk). The crash we saw this year should have happened last season...and it would have if Al Fisher didn't fall from the sky to save Jim Christian's poor recruiting strategy.

(02-03-2009 07:50 AM)ohiovarsity Wrote:  Dave, if people are misunderstanding your point about the contract making it hard to recruit high school players, it's because that's what you said:

"They probably won't until KSU extends Ford's contract. The four-year deal really hasn't been good. Harder to get better freshmen to commit when they don't know if he'll be there for even the junior or senior years."

I was going to discuss some of the other points you mentioned, but FlashFan really said it best:

"1. The new AD will be hired by Lestor Lefton. I can tell you the guy on the second floor of the library cares a whole lot more about grades, graduation rates and good citizenship than 20 win seasons. Lefton is far more inclined to listen to a story about student success as a reason to keep a coach than March Madness. The converse is true. If I were Geno and thought I was getting a new boss, I'd spend this time making sure his boss brought into my student success strategy... "

As I said before, and FlashFan posted the same thing, the time was right for Geno Ford to correct the mistakes of Jim Christian, who coached every year as if it were his last. That's why you saw the big recruiting holes. That's why KSU had to push a 3-star point guard out the door--because KSU didn't need another guard, they needed someone who could play inside.

Moss, by the way is averaging 9.5 points and 2.5 assists in just over 23 minutes per game against better competition. There's a four-year player that would have had an instant impact at Kent State.

If Ford is worried about building his resume, he should build a program, not a legacy of gambling on high-risk kids hoping for big rewards.

Charlie Weis was all but shown the door after the last two seasons he had at Notre Dame. You know what saved him? Recruiting. He's recruited some of the top classes in the country and the NEW athletics director bought into the notion that the future is bright.

Ford and his staff have recruited two of Ohio's top players in Holt and Johnson. Had they recruited more high school players that would be on campus now, you'd have a heck of a core to build with. Then it becomes easier to take a chance on a JUCO or transfer, because if he doesn't pan out you have options and depth.

Unfortunately, the strategy has been to put all the eggs in the basket of high-risk players (not bad kids, but high-risk). The crash we saw this year should have happened last season...and it would have if Al Fisher didn't fall from the sky to save Jim Christian's poor recruiting strategy.

Yes, what I said is IT MAKES IT HARDER!!!!!

You took a very simple statement and claimed I'm "using a coach's contract as an excuse for failing to recruit" which simply isn't true.

I've said several times I like what Kent State is doing in recruiting. They've landed some very good high school recruits.

It is simply a matter of fact that the Ford's contract has been used against them in recruiting. I gave you one line in a previous post that is a direct quote from a recruit saying what another coach said to his family about Geno's contract situation. The kid still signed, so obviously the negative recruiting doesn't ruin KSU's chances to get a good high school senior.

I've also said that in previous posts that Tyree Evans shooting slump didn't help KSU during a recent losing streak. Your claim is similar to saying that I blame Evans shooting slump for the entirety Kent State's disappointing season when it was simply a factor in one portion of the season that I still believe can be a success.

Ever hear of the latin fallacy "post hoc ergo proctor hoc."
You are taking one small part of what I said and failing to take into account the other points and factors that I discussed.

(02-03-2009 07:50 AM)ohiovarsity Wrote:  Dave, if people are misunderstanding your point about the contract making it hard to recruit high school players, it's because that's what you said:

"They probably won't until KSU extends Ford's contract. The four-year deal really hasn't been good. Harder to get better freshmen to commit when they don't know if he'll be there for even the junior or senior years."

I was going to discuss some of the other points you mentioned, but FlashFan really said it best:

"1. The new AD will be hired by Lestor Lefton. I can tell you the guy on the second floor of the library cares a whole lot more about grades, graduation rates and good citizenship than 20 win seasons. Lefton is far more inclined to listen to a story about student success as a reason to keep a coach than March Madness. The converse is true. If I were Geno and thought I was getting a new boss, I'd spend this time making sure his boss brought into my student success strategy... "

As I said before, and FlashFan posted the same thing, the time was right for Geno Ford to correct the mistakes of Jim Christian, who coached every year as if it were his last. That's why you saw the big recruiting holes. That's why KSU had to push a 3-star point guard out the door--because KSU didn't need another guard, they needed someone who could play inside.

Moss, by the way is averaging 9.5 points and 2.5 assists in just over 23 minutes per game against better competition. There's a four-year player that would have had an instant impact at Kent State.

If Ford is worried about building his resume, he should build a program, not a legacy of gambling on high-risk kids hoping for big rewards.

Charlie Weis was all but shown the door after the last two seasons he had at Notre Dame. You know what saved him? Recruiting. He's recruited some of the top classes in the country and the NEW athletics director bought into the notion that the future is bright.

Ford and his staff have recruited two of Ohio's top players in Holt and Johnson. Had they recruited more high school players that would be on campus now, you'd have a heck of a core to build with. Then it becomes easier to take a chance on a JUCO or transfer, because if he doesn't pan out you have options and depth.

Unfortunately, the strategy has been to put all the eggs in the basket of high-risk players (not bad kids, but high-risk). The crash we saw this year should have happened last season...and it would have if Al Fisher didn't fall from the sky to save Jim Christian's poor recruiting strategy.

I just simply don't agree with you. That's all.
I just don't accept the premise that Christian's recruiting strategy was poor.

They may have actually been a much better team had they kept Spates.
Spates is a better player than Fisher. Christian decided that the Spates missing meetings and being out of contact was something he wasn't willing to accept and dismissed him late in off-season.

Christian's recruiting strategy worked well enough over a six-year period to make him the winningest coach in the MAC and to put his teams in the NCAA tournament twice. It helped him to his goal of getting the next job.

Geno's goal is a little different. He's trying to win enough to get a decent contract. Like it or not, the contract he received when he was hired does not come across as a great vote of confidence. It looks like it was designed to give the university easy outs if he struggles early ... fewer years and two-thirds of the money that lesser MAC programs offered their new coaches.

I find it hard to blame Ford for following a proven blueprint at a time when he has a reason to look over his shoulder.

I'm also not arrogant enough to believe that I have all of the answers. I can understand why Ford would have his current recruiting strategy. I could understand why he might try to do what you said you think he should do. This is just what he has chosen. I get it.

Notre Dame and Charlie Weis, in my opinion, is not a comparable situation.

I also don't believe this is a crash. It's a dip. It's disappointing. But the team is getting better, and there are what I believe to be some nice pieces to the puzzle (both high school and juco) from this last recruiting class that will help this program.

I've known Senderoff for a long time and have a great deal of respect for him as a recruiter and evaluator of talent. I've been very impressed with Armon Gates and Bobby Steinburg work as recruiters. This is a pretty good staff, and they are only going to get better.

Also, remember, they didn't have a whole lot of time to recruit a lot of high school players who would be on campus right now with the last class. They were trying to patch some very serious holes after taking over as a head coach in mid-March and getting his staff in place by April. Not impossible, but late in the game to get on kids who have been recruited all along by other schools and convince them all to come to Kent.

As for Moss, once Christian took the job at TCU, he was never coming to Kent State. Ford was fine with that because they felt they needed to get more bigs. KSU didn't push him out the door. He was never coming. I'm fine with the way it all worked out. Yes, Moss would have been nice to have around. He's good, not great. I'm fine with having Rod Sherman for two more years and Holt for four more starting next season. I think that will be a nice tandem at the spot Moss would have filled. I may be wrong.

(02-03-2009 07:36 AM)kyflash Wrote:  Great thread, guys. Thanks for the info, David, hope you're feeling better.

Just one quick note: I'm a lot more skeptical of highly-touted recruits who couldn't cut it at bigger schools (Cass, Williams) than I am of JUCO players. JUCOs are often solid guys who just didn't have the grades to get into a D1 school. But it seems like highly-touted players who transfer out of stronger programs to smaller schools don't succeed there, either. I'm going mainly on my experience of watching UK and SEC teams, so I could be wrong, but I just can't think of many big-name players who haven't brought their shortcomings with them to the smaller school.

Thanks!
I think you have to look at it as a case-by-case deal. Why did the player transfer? Was he a problem?
In Cass' case, UTEP isn't necessarily a stronger program. Cass left there primarily because he had to support a young family. He seems like a good kid and they like his game.
Williams, I'm not sure. Providence is definitely a stronger program. His tendency to move around may be a red flag. He may have had good reasons for making the decisions he's made. I don't know. I know that the Oregon State deal appears to be a decision that was made for him since he didn't have enough credit hours to be eligible and allow Oregon State to take him.