JOwl Wrote:Really? You can draw an exact parallel between Arnold's five-year tenure as governor and Barack's negative-one-month tenure as president?
That is, in a word, fantastic.

What is it with you Obamaphiles? No criticism allowed? Is there a five year waiting period? Or is it just that negative opinions are not tolerable?

We just finshed a campaign in which voters made their decisions based on track records (however skimpy), speeches, promises, and general impressions. You developed from all that an impression of Obama that led you to believe in him, I developed an impression that led me to not vote for him. Both sets of impressions are based on the negative tenure. Yes, we have to wait to see which of us is closer to the truth, but that does not mean we are muzzled, any more than we were two months ago as we gave our opinions of Obama, Palin, McCain, and that other guy. We must wait to find out out if Obama is "just words", but we can say what we think and then see if he (dis)proves to be that way.

I think Jonathan's characterization is spot on, based on what i have seen and heard so far. Besides the campaign and his previous record, we now have a lot of appointments and some campaign promises "modified" (if he were a Republican they would be lies) to base any assesment on. Will your expectations be met, or will mine, or erice's, or 69/70/75's? Stayed tuned, we willl see. But we do not have to wait in silence. I think Rice will defeat WMU - must i wait until after the game to say that?

OptimisticOwl Wrote:

JOwl Wrote:Really? You can draw an exact parallel between Arnold's five-year tenure as governor and Barack's negative-one-month tenure as president?
That is, in a word, fantastic.

What is it with you Obamaphiles? No criticism allowed? Is there a five year waiting period? Or is it just that negative opinions are not tolerable?

We just finshed a campaign in which voters made their decisions based on track records (however skimpy), speeches, promises, and general impressions. You developed from all that an impression of Obama that led you to believe in him, I developed an impression that led me to not vote for him. Both sets of impressions are based on the negative tenure. Yes, we have to wait to see which of us is closer to the truth, but that does not mean we are muzzled, any more than we were two months ago as we gave our opinions of Obama, Palin, McCain, and that other guy. We must wait to find out out if Obama is "just words", but we can say what we think and then see if he (dis)proves to be that way.

I think Jonathan's characterization is spot on, based on what i have seen and heard so far. Besides the campaign and his previous record, we now have a lot of appointments and some campaign promises "modified" (if he were a Republican they would be lies) to base any assesment on. Will your expectations be met, or will mine, or erice's, or 69/70/75's? Stayed tuned, we willl see. But we do not have to wait in silence. I think Rice will defeat WMU - must i wait until after the game to say that?

OwlSD said that "as a governor, he doesn't show enough interest or energy for the tough parts of the job." Jonathan Sadow followed that up with a comment that you can "replace ... 'governor' with 'president', and the parallel is exact...".
It is literally impossible to draw exact parallels between Arnold's tenure as governor and Obama's as president, given that Obama has not yet been president.

As you point out, one can certainly speculate as to what Obama's presidency will bring. I don't see how you're reading my comment as a demand that folks not engage in such speculation.

OptimisticOwl Wrote:What is it with you Obamaphiles? No criticism allowed? Is there a five year waiting period? Or is it just that negative opinions are not tolerable?

I think Rice will defeat WMU - must i wait until after the game to say that?

What is it with you Obamaphobes? No support allowed? Is it just that positive opinions are not tolerable?

A bit grating to be labled as a "phile", member of a cult, follower of the "Messiah," for responding with a contrary or, positive, view of the next C in C.

You must NOT wait until after the game to think Rice will defeat WMU.

My, my. A lot of sensitivity here.

First, I am not an Obamaphobe. I do not fear him. Nor am I a "hater" of Obama, or a hater of any type (hater is so overused and misused, IMO). I have exactly the same right to criticize as y'all have to support, and i don't think anybody should be hushed.

The election is over. For better or worse, we have him for at least 4 years. There is no need anymore to argue the good or bad we expect from him - we just need to sit back and see. But if we do speak, we must speak the truth as we see it, and not everybody shares the same expectations. I am glad to see him changing already.

Yes, JOwl, it is literally impossible to draw those parallels(or many other parallels for that matter), but that didn't stop people from making assumptions about Palin's projected performance as VP and as President, all before she served a day as either. It didn't stop people from deciding McCain had too much of a temper to be at the switch, all before he served a day as president or lost his temper once.

So what is the difference between saying Obama will _______ and Palin will________? Obama has an image of big talk, no results, and he will have his chance to disprove that image - or confirm it - over the next four years. Like I said, he WILL meet someone's expectations - it just may be mine, or it may be yours, but we can both project at this point. I didn't read your statement as a demand to shut up - I read it as a statement that any opinion not based on a track record in that particular office is invalid. Heck, we just all voted without any of the candidates having a track record in that particular office. That is what voting is - an opinion on future performance.

Ausowl, I didn't know "philes' were cult members - i just thought they were people who liked something, like an Anglophile. I guess what was in my mind wasn't what you thought was in my mind.

Now back to something of major importance.

Based on track records and history, I have an opinion of what will happen in the Texas Bowl. I may be wrong - we shall know late on the 30th if i am or am not. Even though the game has not been played - neither team has even one minute of Texas Bowl experience - I expressed my opinion to my bookie in the proper manner. And i will express it here, using my right of free speech. Take Rice and the over.

Go Owls!!

OptimisticOwl Wrote:My, my. A lot of sensitivity here.

I tried, failed it appears, to get a "smilely" in there in my response. Just tyin' to play off your quote.

Having, for now, purged whatever lingering resentments I had from the late unpleasentness of the political season, I shuffle off this field and wish you the very best and your bookie the very worst of luck.

(12-22-2008 03:25 PM)ausowl Wrote:  

OptimisticOwl Wrote:My, my. A lot of sensitivity here.

I tried, failed it appears, to get a "smilely" in there in my response. Just tyin' to play off your quote.

Having, for now, purged whatever lingering resentments I had from the late unpleasentness of the political season, I shuffle off this field and wish you the very best and your bookie the very worst of luck.

A smiley makes all the difference!!!

This board is generally civil and thoughtful, even in disagreement. I try to choose my words carefully, to get across my thoughts without being incendiary. It is easy to infer tones of voice, etc., that aren't there.

The election is over, and now the Obama supporters and the Obama opponents both await developments, albeit with widely divergent expectations. Who will be disappointed? Who will be vindicated? It will take some time. I find it interesting that the gay and lesbian constituency is upset with the choice of minister, and some feminist groups are upset that the female representation in his appointments so far is no better than Bush's and Clinton's.

Some of his appointments are similar or identical to those I think McCain would have made. It appears that some of his policies will more closely resemble McCain's than the ones he ran on. It will be interesting to see the first six months, what he does, what he doesn't do, and who he upsets. I also await the next test as foretold by Biden.

I feel like someone who has just been told he must have a root canal. I don't expect it to be cheap or painless, but I must go through with it. IOW, I am a bit fatalistic right now, que sera, sera, maybe it won't be as bad as we first thought, but hey, it could be worse. (The flip side for his supporters is that maybe it won't be as good as you thought). Are we seeing the change and transparency yet? Never mind, I'll ask again in six months - we should have a better view by then.

Merry Christmas.

And, of course, go Owls!

---

Oh, and on the use of "Obamaphile" - I think it is an apt term for the those like Obama/Obama's policies, but i don't think Obamaphobe is apt for those who don't like him/his policies. Is pedophobe the opposite of pedophile?

I don't know what to suggest. i was looking for a shorthand way to cover the pro- and anti- Obama camps. I think liberals or democrats are too generic, as are conservatives and Republicans. But, WTH, what do y'all think? Stick with pro-Obamans and anti-Obamans? I'm not against Obama - I oppose his political philosophy, not the man.

(12-23-2008 01:53 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Oh, and on the use of "Obamaphile" - I think it is an apt term for the those like Obama/Obama's policies, but i don't think Obamaphobe is apt for those who don't like him/his policies. Is pedophobe the opposite of pedophile?

To a chemist, the suffix -phobe is exactly the opposite of -phile. And this is a Rice board...

(12-23-2008 03:32 PM)MOBalum Wrote:  

(12-23-2008 01:53 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Oh, and on the use of "Obamaphile" - I think it is an apt term for the those like Obama/Obama's policies, but i don't think Obamaphobe is apt for those who don't like him/his policies. Is pedophobe the opposite of pedophile?

To a chemist, the suffix -phobe is exactly the opposite of -phile. And this is a Rice board...

If i could have passed chemistry, i would be a doctor. I didn't, I'm not. In any case, we are not talking about chemistry here. Question: is a homophile the opposite of a homophobe? And what exactly would a homophile be in that case, for that matter, what exactly is a homophobe? Judging from the latin roots, i would say a homophobe was someone with a fear of human beings, or maybe just the males.

Maybe instead of Obamaphile, we could just say Obama-fans. Team Obama? Obama Nation? Obamaians? I asked for other suggestions, have not seen any. if nobody has a better suggestion, I will keep on using Obamaphile.

(12-23-2008 05:48 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(12-23-2008 03:32 PM)MOBalum Wrote:  

(12-23-2008 01:53 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Oh, and on the use of "Obamaphile" - I think it is an apt term for the those like Obama/Obama's policies, but i don't think Obamaphobe is apt for those who don't like him/his policies. Is pedophobe the opposite of pedophile?

To a chemist, the suffix -phobe is exactly the opposite of -phile. And this is a Rice board...

If i could have passed chemistry, i would be a doctor. I didn't, I'm not. In any case, we are not talking about chemistry here. Question: is a homophile the opposite of a homophobe? And what exactly would a homophile be in that case, for that matter, what exactly is a homophobe? Judging from the latin roots, i would say a homophobe was someone with a fear of human beings, or maybe just the males.

Maybe instead of Obamaphile, we could just say Obama-fans. Team Obama? Obama Nation? Obamaians? I asked for other suggestions, have not seen any. if nobody has a better suggestion, I will keep on using Obamaphile.

IMHO, "-phile" as a suffix is rarely used with positive connotations. The fact that the first parallel to Obamaphile/Obamaphobe that apparently came to your mind was "pedophile/pedophobe" seems to support that. If you're inclined to be as politically correct as possible about it (not that that's a requirement), why not just stick with "Obama Supporters?" The number of keystrokes that it's taking you to engage in this debate is probably many times more than the number you'd save by using a shorter nickname.

There are some positive uses for -phile such as Francophile is used for the French language prefering Quebecers and Angloplhile for the English prefering Quebecers.

(12-23-2008 05:48 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(12-23-2008 03:32 PM)MOBalum Wrote:  

(12-23-2008 01:53 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Oh, and on the use of "Obamaphile" - I think it is an apt term for the those like Obama/Obama's policies, but i don't think Obamaphobe is apt for those who don't like him/his policies. Is pedophobe the opposite of pedophile?

To a chemist, the suffix -phobe is exactly the opposite of -phile. And this is a Rice board...

If i could have passed chemistry, i would be a doctor. I didn't, I'm not. In any case, we are not talking about chemistry here. Question: is a homophile the opposite of a homophobe? And what exactly would a homophile be in that case, for that matter, what exactly is a homophobe? Judging from the latin roots, i would say a homophobe was someone with a fear of human beings, or maybe just the males.

Maybe instead of Obamaphile, we could just say Obama-fans. Team Obama? Obama Nation? Obamaians? I asked for other suggestions, have not seen any. if nobody has a better suggestion, I will keep on using Obamaphile.

IMHO, "-phile" as a suffix is rarely used with positive connotations. The fact that the first parallel to Obamaphile/Obamaphobe that apparently came to your mind was "pedophile/pedophobe" seems to support that. If you're inclined to be as politically correct as possible about it (not that that's a requirement), why not just stick with "Obama Supporters?" The number of keystrokes that it's taking you to engage in this debate is probably many times more than the number you'd save by using a shorter nickname.
[/quote]

We could point out that both Francophile and Anglophile refer to Quebecers and suggest that such a reference is slightly less positive than the perjorative "damn Yankee". Doesn't make it a positive, just less negative.

(12-23-2008 06:21 PM)75Owl Wrote:  There are some positive uses for -phile such as Francophile is used for the French language prefering Quebecers and Angloplhile for the English prefering Quebecers.

(12-23-2008 06:14 PM)erice Wrote:  

(12-23-2008 05:48 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(12-23-2008 03:32 PM)MOBalum Wrote:  

(12-23-2008 01:53 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Oh, and on the use of "Obamaphile" - I think it is an apt term for the those like Obama/Obama's policies, but i don't think Obamaphobe is apt for those who don't like him/his policies. Is pedophobe the opposite of pedophile?

To a chemist, the suffix -phobe is exactly the opposite of -phile. And this is a Rice board...

If i could have passed chemistry, i would be a doctor. I didn't, I'm not. In any case, we are not talking about chemistry here. Question: is a homophile the opposite of a homophobe? And what exactly would a homophile be in that case, for that matter, what exactly is a homophobe? Judging from the latin roots, i would say a homophobe was someone with a fear of human beings, or maybe just the males.

Maybe instead of Obamaphile, we could just say Obama-fans. Team Obama? Obama Nation? Obamaians? I asked for other suggestions, have not seen any. if nobody has a better suggestion, I will keep on using Obamaphile.

IMHO, "-phile" as a suffix is rarely used with positive connotations. The fact that the first parallel to Obamaphile/Obamaphobe that apparently came to your mind was "pedophile/pedophobe" seems to support that. If you're inclined to be as politically correct as possible about it (not that that's a requirement), why not just stick with "Obama Supporters?" The number of keystrokes that it's taking you to engage in this debate is probably many times more than the number you'd save by using a shorter nickname.

Actually, the first "parallel" to Obamaphile I came up with was Anglophile. Don't let the facts get in the way of making an incorrect point. And I see no parallels to Obamphile/Obamaphobe because i have been making the argument that -phile and -phobe are not opposites. I was not the first to use Obamaphobe in this discussion, and i said i didn't consider it to be a proper opposite of Obamaphile. There is no commonly used word "pedophobe" or "homophile", and i brought them up to illustrate how silly it is to oppose -phobe, which basically means "fear of" with -phile, which basically means "lover or liker of". The opposite of fear is not love, nor is it like. I don't like Nascar, but I am not a Nascarophobe. I am scared of wasps, so I guess i am a waspophobe, but people who aren't scared of them are not neccesarily waspophiles.

You said that IYHO -phile is rarely used with positive connotations. Maybe you are right, as Ausowl immediately went to cults (I am still not sure how seriously), but IMHO, -phile has ZERO negative connotations unless it is modified by a root word that is itself odius, such as a cannibalismophile, or one in which the combination is odius, as pedophile. To me, Anglophile connotes someone who likes British things, Grecophile is someone who love Greek things, etc., and this is the way i used it - to connote people who like Obama and his policies. Now I am being attacked by Obama supporters for calling them people who like Obama and his policies. Go figure.

I used to be a discusionophile, but I am rapidly becoming an arguementophobe.

This really is a tempest in a teapot. I guess it will end as soon as I am forced to speak as y'all deem appropriate. OK, I will use the cumbersome "Obama supporters" for now. My wrongthink is corrected.

Is the opposite of "Obama supporters" "Obama nonsupporters"? Please feel required to use that phasing whenever you Obama supporters refer to us who are not.

Is there anyone out there who can and will tell me what is the real opposite of -phile is? What is the suffix for "hater or disliker of"?

Seems the new server has a tendency to turn an "edit" into a duplicate thread! Let's see if I get a third one...

(12-24-2008 09:48 AM)erice Wrote:  

(12-24-2008 12:32 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Now I am being attacked by Obama supporters for calling them people who like Obama and his policies. Go figure.

I used to be a discusionophile, but I am rapidly becoming an arguementophobe.

This really is a tempest in a teapot. I guess it will end as soon as I am forced to speak as y'all deem appropriate. I guess it will end as soon as I am forced to speak as y'all deem appropriate.

Mostly I think the tempest is only in YOUR teapot.

You weren't "attacked by Obama supporters" -- at most, you were attacked by one (ausowl) who, in fact, purports to have forgotten his smiley. Your response was "A smiley makes all the difference!!!" Maybe that was a sarcastic way of retorting that a smiley really, in fact, doesn't make a difference -- hard to tell without a smiley of some sort!

Nevertheless, I took you literally and thought I'd join this jovial discussion -- with a smiley of my own (albeit the winky variety). Note that I didn't attempt in any way to change the way you speak -- I prefaced my recommendation on the use of "Obama supporters" with "If you're inclined to be as politically correct as possible about it (not that that's a requirement)..." Meaning, personally I don't mind "Obamaphile" at all (Hell, if Obama's a cult, where do I get the wine?), but if you really want to go out of your way not to offend anyone...

I close with the most good-natured smiley I can think of , which I will pointedly add is intended to indicate that I consider this entire conversation to be a very light-hearted, friendly banter.

(I'll leave the interpretation of that last one to you)

(P.S. I'm really not as irrational about Obama as my "wine" comment might suggest.)

Oh, what an interesting language we have! If only connotations were universally agreed-upon...

So we have one guy (OO, not a fan of Obama but also not a Bush supporter, chose McCain as the lesser of two evils IIRC) who uses Obamaphile, and several Obama supporters who interpret that word with a negative connotation.

One of those Obama supporters then responds with a parallel argument using Obamaphobe to mean Obama opponent, and OO interprets that word negatively, and states that it's not an accurate antonym of Obamaphile.

I chime in to state that a reasonable number of people who took Orgo would see those suffixes as exact antonyms - let me amend that to say it may certainly not be that way in political discussions or general usage, I was trying to defend the coiner of Obamaphobe, not invalidate OO's interpretation of the word. But I think that OO was stating that my interpretation was invalid. I could be wrong, but that's the impression I get (again with the connotations!).

Lewis Carroll Wrote:“When I use a word”, Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means exactly what I choose it to mean-- neither more nor less.”

I think this applies to all of us...

(12-24-2008 09:49 AM)erice Wrote:  

(12-24-2008 09:48 AM)erice Wrote:  

(12-24-2008 12:32 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Now I am being attacked by Obama supporters for calling them people who like Obama and his policies. Go figure.

I used to be a discusionophile, but I am rapidly becoming an arguementophobe.

This really is a tempest in a teapot. I guess it will end as soon as I am forced to speak as y'all deem appropriate. I guess it will end as soon as I am forced to speak as y'all deem appropriate.

Mostly I think the tempest is only in YOUR teapot.

You weren't "attacked by Obama supporters" -- at most, you were attacked by one (ausowl) who, in fact, purports to have forgotten his smiley. Your response was "A smiley makes all the difference!!!" Maybe that was a sarcastic way of retorting that a smiley really, in fact, doesn't make a difference -- hard to tell without a smiley of some sort!

Nevertheless, I took you literally and thought I'd join this jovial discussion -- with a smiley of my own (albeit the winky variety). Note that I didn't attempt in any way to change the way you speak -- I prefaced my recommendation on the use of "Obama supporters" with "If you're inclined to be as politically correct as possible about it (not that that's a requirement)..." Meaning, personally I don't mind "Obamaphile" at all (Hell, if Obama's a cult, where do I get the wine?), but if you really want to go out of your way not to offend anyone...

I close with the most good-natured smiley I can think of , which I will pointedly add is intended to indicate that I consider this entire conversation to be a very light-hearted, friendly banter.

(I'll leave the interpretation of that last one to you)

(P.S. I'm really not as irrational about Obama as my "wine" comment might suggest.)

I am really not very good with smileys, and the one I want to use the most is not on the first page. But I'll try. (Note -tried and failed - what is it with me and technology? But I am not a technophobe.)

I was serious but friendly when i responded to Ausowl. I was light-hearted and jovial later. But I was unhappy when you made your statement about my first thought being pedophile/pedophobe. I was defending the position that phobe is NOT the opposite of phile, and i hated being put in a position that i didn't advocate. I still do not agree that -phile and -phobe are opposites, except in chemistry, i guess.

In the end, it comes down to what are the meanings of words. Just words.

I am not a oenophile(is that the word for wine-lover? Smiley here), but i will be happy to sit down and share a box of Boone's Farm with you (that is what you meant, right? Smiley again) or any other libation, er, I mean beverage, I think. What IS the right word here? (smiley, smiley, smiley)

Maybe my reaction to Obamaphobe was conditioned by the widespread misuse of the word "homophobe". Now there is a word with mismatched roots. (Smiley) I hope that just because I advocate the legalization of gay marriage that i am not classified a homophile, unless, of course, that means "lover of the human race in a general, nonsexual way", in which case it is OK. (Smiley, dancing banana, clink glasses of beer, etc.)

I never in my wildest dreams (NOYB) thought that an Obama supporter would take offense at being called an Obamaphile. If it makes y'all feel better, call me a Palinophile. I'm OK with that. It's not a cult. (smiley, etc)

Merry Christmas to all.

(smiley)

(12-24-2008 10:43 AM)MOBalum Wrote:  Oh, what an interesting language we have! If only connotations were universally agreed-upon...

So we have one guy (OO, not a fan of Obama but also not a Bush supporter, chose McCain as the lesser of two evils IIRC) who uses Obamaphile, and several Obama supporters who interpret that word with a negative connotation.

One of those Obama supporters then responds with a parallel argument using Obamaphobe to mean Obama opponent, and OO interprets that word negatively, and states that it's not an accurate antonym of Obamaphile.

I chime in to state that a reasonable number of people who took Orgo would see those suffixes as exact antonyms - let me amend that to say it may certainly not be that way in political discussions or general usage, I was trying to defend the coiner of Obamaphobe, not invalidate OO's interpretation of the word. But I think that OO was stating that my interpretation was invalid. I could be wrong, but that's the impression I get (again with the connotations!).

Close. Not dead-on, but close.

(smileys, etc)

(12-24-2008 10:56 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I was serious but friendly when i responded to Ausowl. I was light-hearted and jovial later. But I was unhappy when you made your statement about my first thought being pedophile/pedophobe. I was defending the position that phobe is NOT the opposite of phile, and i hated being put in a position that i didn't advocate. I still do not agree that -phile and -phobe are opposites, except in chemistry, i guess.

You're right that I was wrong in saying your first thought was pedophile (Let's take THAT sentence out of context!). I should have mentioned that -- I'd forgotten that you had made the earlier comment about anglophiles. Nevertheless, I hope you agree that I was not in any way telling you how you should speak.

And I agree that -phobe doesn't seem to mean exactly the opposite of -phile. FWIW, Wikipedia suggests it is, but that certainly doesn't make it so.

Also, the smileys aren't working like they used to for me either (seems like I can only manually type them in -- just clicking on the image isn't doing it). It's the net, not your set.

(12-24-2008 11:12 AM)erice Wrote:  

(12-24-2008 10:56 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I was serious but friendly when i responded to Ausowl. I was light-hearted and jovial later. But I was unhappy when you made your statement about my first thought being pedophile/pedophobe. I was defending the position that phobe is NOT the opposite of phile, and i hated being put in a position that i didn't advocate. I still do not agree that -phile and -phobe are opposites, except in chemistry, i guess.

You're right that I was wrong in saying your first thought was pedophile (Let's take THAT sentence out of context!). I should have mentioned that -- I'd forgotten that you had made the earlier comment about anglophiles. Nevertheless, I hope you agree that I was not in any way telling you how you should speak.

And I agree that -phobe doesn't seem to mean exactly the opposite of -phile. FWIW, Wikipedia suggests it is, but that certainly doesn't make it so.

Also, the smileys aren't working like they used to for me either (seems like I can only manually type them in -- just clicking on the image isn't doing it). It's the net, not your set.

Aw, let's be friends again.

Glad to hear the smiley's aren't my fault. i really am somewhat of a Luddite (I think i got that one right).

So, will Coleman concede soon? Just curious, because I *know* he couldn't be keeping this up just to deny the Dems a crucial vote in the Senate.