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ETSUfan1 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: A-Sun expansion
I'm sorry. I just dont see JU playing I-A football.
07-21-2008 08:44 PM
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ByrdsEyeBlue Offline
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Post: #22
RE: A-Sun expansion
Know that Belmont adding football would be a stretch, and there is no chance of it in the next 3 years. Lipscomb however already has a football stadium on campus because of their high school football team, since there ae 2009 plans for a 750,000 dollar addition to the satdium and they could draw big from their own high school and middle tennessee football their is easily possible, especially non-scholarship
07-21-2008 08:55 PM
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Buccaneerlover Offline
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Post: #23
RE: A-Sun expansion
JU CANNOT PLAY I-A football until they play at the playoff subdivision and get their attendance up to atleast 20,000 per game, end of story.
Blue,

I agree with you that it's a stretch, but if it ever comes that somebody wants it, it'll happen. Just the same as Lipscomb woud add it if you BU did, BU would add it if Lipscomb did to keep up.
07-22-2008 10:15 PM
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CWG Offline
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Post: #24
RE: A-Sun expansion
Bottom line: The conference should support football for those schools that want it, even if you only have 4 teams initially. I don't think the venture would lose money (in the long run) and this may prevent schools from leaving the conference.

I am really down on the conference, I don't believe they do enough for our schools.
They should either (1) hype the conference as a major Basketball conference or (2) support more sports (football)... Again, just my opinion...
07-23-2008 07:18 AM
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KennesawBasketball Offline
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Post: #25
RE: A-Sun expansion
I agree that they should support football as a non-championship sport until we have a majority of the league playing football. In the next 5-10 years the following schools will have football in my opinion:

1. Campbell
2. Jacksonville
3. Kennesaw
4. ETSU

These schools could have football if they wanted to according to some of the posters on the boards...
1. Mercer
2. Lipscomb
3. FGCU

I am not sure about these schools:
1. Belmont
2. USC-Upstate
3. Stetson
4. North Florida

Even if we were only able to get 7 teams to have football, that could be a 6 game conference schedule with 5 OOC games. That would allow the teams to go on the road, play some guarantee games and raise some money. It wouldn't be great for our records, as football is a home dominated sport, but until the rest of the conference was up to speed might help fund the expensive football programs. If ASun doesn't have a 10 year plan for football then it is probably in trouble. Kennesaw is definitely going to get football (even though I still think we are 5 years away from having a a team), and when we do it won't be too long until there are other football conferences courting us considering at that point we will easily be pushing 30,000 enrollment, and 10 years in Division I basketball...with hopefully some modest success here and there.

Short term I dont think there is any big rush on football/expansion...but they better have something in place for 10 years from now.
07-23-2008 08:28 AM
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CWG Offline
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Post: #26
RE: A-Sun expansion
KennesawBasketball Wrote:I agree that they should support football as a non-championship sport until we have a majority of the league playing football. In the next 5-10 years the following schools will have football in my opinion:

1. Campbell
2. Jacksonville
3. Kennesaw
4. ETSU

These schools could have football if they wanted to according to some of the posters on the boards...
1. Mercer
2. Lipscomb
3. FGCU

I am not sure about these schools:
1. Belmont
2. USC-Upstate
3. Stetson
4. North Florida

Even if we were only able to get 7 teams to have football, that could be a 6 game conference schedule with 5 OOC games. That would allow the teams to go on the road, play some guarantee games and raise some money. It wouldn't be great for our records, as football is a home dominated sport, but until the rest of the conference was up to speed might help fund the expensive football programs. If ASun doesn't have a 10 year plan for football then it is probably in trouble. Kennesaw is definitely going to get football (even though I still think we are 5 years away from having a a team), and when we do it won't be too long until there are other football conferences courting us considering at that point we will easily be pushing 30,000 enrollment, and 10 years in Division I basketball...with hopefully some modest success here and there.

Short term I dont think there is any big rush on football/expansion...but they better have something in place for 10 years from now.

Great Post- I'm told by a friend of the AD at Mercer that "football will come sooner than later."
07-23-2008 08:34 AM
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KennesawBasketball Offline
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Post: #27
RE: A-Sun expansion
I think Mercer will feel the pressure once Kennesaw, Georgia State, and Georgia Southern all have football programs. Another interesting name to throw in the mix to this expansion discussion is Valdosta State. They would be directly in the center of the footprint, have a strong athletics and academic tradition, and I have heard rumors in the past that they have thought about moving to Division I. It would be another DII transfer, but it would be a perfect fit in my opinion.
07-23-2008 09:27 AM
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PittsburghBucs Offline
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Post: #28
RE: A-Sun expansion
I actually think it is very practical for Jacksonville to draw 20,000 fans for football.

There are two ways to do this-

A- The Jacksonville Jaguars move to Los Angeles, thus leaving a gaping hole for an otherwise large city desperate for teams to root for. Sure, there's the Gators and Seminoles, but come on- they aren't really JACKSONVILLE entities.

There have been rumors of a Jaguars move to Los Angeles for awhile. The Jags would have to prove they've lost money for three straight years to get out of their lease.

They aren't selling out and there's little Jacksonville can do for them per se. They already rebuild the Gator Bowl for them 13 years ago. Are they going to build them a retractable roof dome now or something? Where would the money come from?

If that happens, it would make a lot of sense for Jacksonville University to move into that stadium with a Division I-A team and try to get into the best conference they possibly can.

Who knows? Perhaps they could even move into the Big East with Central Florida for a 10-team football conference with three Florida entities.

Plan B- If I'm the Jaguars, I don't look upon JU as a competitor. I look at them as a great friend.

The stronger the brand name of JACKSONVILLE is- either in pro or college sports- the better it is for them. They need to break the city into some sort of independent identity- which was what the Jaguars were supposed to do in the first place.

But establishing the identity of a JACKSONVILLE sports fan instead of a "Fan of Florida teams, like our hometown Jaguars when they do well," could be gained if Jacksonville U receives more prominence.

Encouraging fans to go to JU Dolphins games on Saturday and Jaguars games on Sundays is not a bad way to do it. It's what the Steelers do with Pitt, the Miami Dolphins once did and soon will do again with the Miami Hurricanes, Gophers-Vikings, Temple-Eagles, South Florida-Bucs, Tulane-Saints, etc.

There are lots of ways they can do this- for one welcoming a potential Jacksonville U football team instead of worrying about ripped turf. A joint partnership with season tickets. Helping negotiations with whoever owns the stadium for a favorable lease deal. Joint advertising.

It requires thinking big, but is not impossible.
07-24-2008 11:49 AM
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HatterFan Offline
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Post: #29
RE: A-Sun expansion
Pitt - you pose a thought provoking chicken or egg scenario. Which comes first, being a bigtime entity or acting like one?

JU being a small private school (~3500 enrollment) I wonder if they could ever accrue the fanbase to support such a thing, let alone the money. Also, North Floridians just sort of are Gators or Noles based on who your family supports/attended.

Even UCF, with resources that could buy and sell JU several times over, are struggling to make the Orlando area their own territory...Jacksonville is even bigger and even closer to both UF and FSU campuses.

Perhaps I am just too daunted by the task of turning a 3-8 FCS non-scholarship team (no winning seasons since 2003, only two this decade) into a UCF-esque 1-A force...the effort and years involved would seem staggering.
07-24-2008 12:25 PM
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KennesawBasketball Offline
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Post: #30
RE: A-Sun expansion
I graduated from a school that has less than 4,000 students and plays in a major conference, and even then we had a very difficult time with our football program until very recently. It will be next to impossible for Jacksonville to raise the necessary level of financial support for their football program to compete in a BCS or even middle tier conference. They simply won't have the finances to do it...football is a money guzzler...you need a huge donor base to make it to the big time, or you need to be a major player in a major conference. Jacksonville has neither of those...they will be in big trouble unless they take it very slow with their football program...
07-24-2008 12:43 PM
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BucDoctor Offline
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Post: #31
RE: A-Sun expansion
HatterFan Wrote:JU being a small private school (~3500 enrollment) I wonder if they could ever accrue the fanbase to support such a thing, let alone the money.

That puts JU at the same size as Wake.
07-24-2008 02:13 PM
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PittsburghBucs Offline
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Post: #32
RE: A-Sun expansion
Exactly Doc!

And Wake is in the shadow of UNC and NC State as much as, if not more than, Jacksonville is with FSU and Florida.

All I know is that in the era around 1970 Jacksonville used to regularly draw 10,000 fans to their basketball games.

I don't think they will outdraw Florida anytime soon.

But could they use the Miami Hurricanes (who drew 36,000 fans for their game against ETSU in 1998, by the way) as a school whose attendance they could strive to meet with a Division I-A program?

Possibly.
07-24-2008 02:42 PM
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CWG Offline
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Post: #33
RE: A-Sun expansion
BucDoctor Wrote:
HatterFan Wrote:JU being a small private school (~3500 enrollment) I wonder if they could ever accrue the fanbase to support such a thing, let alone the money.

That puts JU at the same size as Wake.

I don't understand why so many people equate size with money. Most of the small private schools in the A-Sun have much more money than the larger public schools.

Example:
Mercer: Enrollment Approx 7500, Endowment $200,000,000
Kennesaw: Enrollment Approx 20,602, Endowment $25,700,000

So Mercer who has about 13,000 fewer students than Kennesaw has about $174,300,000 more than Kennesaw.

Just because the school is smaller doesn't mean they have trouble with money or raising money-I get so tired of hearing this B.S. argument.

I will agree that the smaller private schools do have problems with attendance. I know in Macon much of the community sees the "rich" private schools kids as stuck up...
(This post was last modified: 07-25-2008 07:10 AM by CWG.)
07-25-2008 07:09 AM
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KennesawBasketball Offline
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Post: #34
RE: A-Sun expansion
CWG Wrote:
BucDoctor Wrote:
HatterFan Wrote:JU being a small private school (~3500 enrollment) I wonder if they could ever accrue the fanbase to support such a thing, let alone the money.

That puts JU at the same size as Wake.

I don't understand why so many people equate size with money. Most of the small private schools in the A-Sun have much more money than the larger public schools.

Example:
Mercer: Enrollment Approx 7500, Endowment $200,000,000
Kennesaw: Enrollment Approx 20,602, Endowment $25,700,000

So Mercer who has about 13,000 fewer students than Kennesaw has about $174,300,000 more than Kennesaw.

Just because the school is smaller doesn't mean they have trouble with money or raising money-I get so tired of hearing this B.S. argument.

I will agree that the smaller private schools do have problems with attendance. I know in Macon much of the community sees the "rich" private schools kids as stuck up...

Kennesaw's endowment is awful...but it won't be in 10-20 years. Think about it. If Kennesaw is graduating 5000 students a year (conservative estimate) and Mercer is graduating 1500 students a year then in 10 years that is 25,000 more potential donors. Let's say 1/4 of each's school base gives $50 a year to help out the school. That would be $62,500 (12,500 students graduated over that period of time x $50)...Mercer would take in $18,500 a year (3,750 graduates x $50). Again multiply that times 10 years and Kennesaw just brought in over half a million with those estimates ($625,000), while Mercer doesn't even bring in a third of that (185,000).

Numbers matter over the long term if you are a viable Division I university. Right now Kennesaw is way behind everyone, but we will catch up quickly, and much of that success will have to do with our numbers. Also anyone that has any significant financial investments knows that the more money you bring in, the more money you make on your investments.

$5,000 investment doubles 4 times in 20 years = $40,000 total ($35,000 net gain)
$8,000 investment doubles 4 times in 20 years = $64,000 total ($56,000 net gain)

A $3,000 difference at the beginning makes a $24,000 difference at the end. Without big numbers donating, the small private schools will be forced to get large donations, which can be difficult at our level. Doesn't mean that it is impossible for a small private school to compete in football, but it is very difficult.

Combine these two examples and you will see the money gap that can occur between these two different kinds of universities.

Kennesaw initial investment $625,000 doubles 3 times in 18 years... Total: $2,500,000 (Net Gain: $1,875,000)
Mercer initial investment $185,000 doubles 3 times in 18 years....... Total: $740,000 (Net Gain: $555,000)
(This post was last modified: 07-25-2008 09:51 AM by KennesawBasketball.)
07-25-2008 09:40 AM
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CWG Offline
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Post: #35
RE: A-Sun expansion
KennesawBasketball Wrote:
CWG Wrote:
BucDoctor Wrote:
HatterFan Wrote:JU being a small private school (~3500 enrollment) I wonder if they could ever accrue the fanbase to support such a thing, let alone the money.

That puts JU at the same size as Wake.

I don't understand why so many people equate size with money. Most of the small private schools in the A-Sun have much more money than the larger public schools.

Example:
Mercer: Enrollment Approx 7500, Endowment $200,000,000
Kennesaw: Enrollment Approx 20,602, Endowment $25,700,000

So Mercer who has about 13,000 fewer students than Kennesaw has about $174,300,000 more than Kennesaw.

Just because the school is smaller doesn't mean they have trouble with money or raising money-I get so tired of hearing this B.S. argument.

I will agree that the smaller private schools do have problems with attendance. I know in Macon much of the community sees the "rich" private schools kids as stuck up...

Kennesaw's endowment is awful...but it won't be in 10-20 years. Think about it. If Kennesaw is graduating 5000 students a year (conservative estimate) and Mercer is graduating 1500 students a year then in 10 years that is 25,000 more potential donors. Let's say 1/4 of each's school base gives $50 a year to help out the school. That would be $62,500 (12,500 students graduated over that period of time x $50)...Mercer would take in $18,500 a year (3,750 graduates x $50). Again multiply that times 10 years and Kennesaw just brought in over half a million with those estimates ($625,000), while Mercer doesn't even bring in a third of that (185,000).

Numbers matter over the long term if you are a viable Division I university. Right now Kennesaw is way behind everyone, but we will catch up quickly, and much of that success will have to do with our numbers. Also anyone that has any significant financial investments knows that the more money you bring in, the more money you make on your investments.

$5,000 investment doubles 4 times in 20 years = $40,000 total ($35,000 net gain)
$8,000 investment doubles 4 times in 20 years = $64,000 total ($56,000 net gain)

A $3,000 difference at the beginning makes a $24,000 difference at the end. Without big numbers donating, the small private schools will be forced to get large donations, which can be difficult at our level. Doesn't mean that it is impossible for a small private school to compete in football, but it is very difficult.

Combine these two examples and you will see the money gap that can occur between these two different kinds of universities.

Kennesaw initial investment $625,000 doubles 3 times in 18 years... Total: $2,500,000 (Net Gain: $1,875,000)
Mercer initial investment $185,000 doubles 3 times in 18 years....... Total: $740,000 (Net Gain: $555,000)

I wasn't picking on Kennesaw but typically private schools have more money-that is all I was trying to say. I think you calculations are wishful thinking... just my opinion though. Mercer has more money than any public school in the conference (and any public school in the state of GA with the exceptions of UGA & GT).
07-25-2008 10:34 AM
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KennesawBasketball Offline
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Post: #36
RE: A-Sun expansion
I don't think it is wishful thinking that 20 years from now Kennesaw State's endowment will dwarf Mercers...assuming our president and leadership does what needs to be done.
07-25-2008 10:58 AM
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BucDoctor Offline
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Post: #37
RE: A-Sun expansion
ETSU's endowment is now 74 million. Donor giving and endowment are two different things. For example, giving to ETSU last year was more than 17 million, but the endowment was increased by only 8 million.

ETSU had the first incorporated research foundation in Tennessee public higher education and ETSU currently receives an additional $47 million in grant funded research monies. ETSU is second only to UT in research in Tennessee higher education.

ETSU's goal is to have donor giving for capital improvements of more than 224 million in the next 10 years. Giving in the first year was $47 million. We could argue over whether or not giving is better than endowing, but that would be a completely different discussion.

ETSU leads the TBR in gifts received at 7.9% of the annual operating budget.

I just wanted to add a few items because quoting endowment balances doesn't tell the entirity of the story.

BucDoctor.
07-25-2008 12:30 PM
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CWG Offline
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Post: #38
RE: A-Sun expansion
KennesawBasketball Wrote:I don't think it is wishful thinking that 20 years from now Kennesaw State's endowment will dwarf Mercers...assuming our president and leadership does what needs to be done.

UGA's endowment doesn't even "dwarf Mercer's." How do you think Kennesaw's will? You are simply wrong here, but go on dreaming if you like. There is no way Kennesaw's endowment will ever reach 1billion, which is where Mercer's will be in the next 5-10 years.

I think Mercer's endowment is actually around $400m right now even though wikipedia has it at $200m.

Again I wasn't trying to knock KSU, but public schools typically have less money (much less).

Good luck with your dreams, I hope they come true.
07-25-2008 12:42 PM
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CWG Offline
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Post: #39
RE: A-Sun expansion
BucDoctor Wrote:ETSU's endowment is now 74 million. Donor giving and endowment are two different things. For example, giving to ETSU last year was more than 17 million, but the endowment was increased by only 8 million.

ETSU had the first incorporated research foundation in Tennessee public higher education and ETSU currently receives an additional $47 million in grant funded research monies. ETSU is second only to UT in research in Tennessee higher education.

ETSU's goal is to have donor giving for capital improvements of more than 224 million in the next 10 years. Giving in the first year was $47 million. We could argue over whether or not giving is better than endowing, but that would be a completely different discussion.

ETSU leads the TBR in gifts received at 7.9% of the annual operating budget.

I just wanted to add a few items because quoting endowment balances doesn't tell the entirity of the story.

BucDoctor.

Agree mostly... the larger the endowment, the deeper the Universities pockets. I also believe the larger endowments show an ability to raise money (i.e. UGA, GT, Emory, Mercer) Usually the larger the endowment, the greater quality the education the four schools I mention above are known for great education, Kennesaw is known for letting anyone in-I realize this has nothing to do with sports.
(This post was last modified: 07-25-2008 12:51 PM by CWG.)
07-25-2008 12:44 PM
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CWG Offline
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Post: #40
RE: A-Sun expansion
General FYI:

Mercer University is currently completing Phase III of the $350 million Advancing the Vision Campaign. Phases I and II were completed with more than $208 million received or pledged. For Phase II, Mercer received one of the largest gifts in the history of higher education when it received a large tract of developed real estate in Atlanta. The property, given to Mercer and to LaGrange College jointly, was valued at $124 million with Mercer's share being $62 million. As of November 2006, more than $300 million was received in Phases I, II, and III.

Dr. R. Kirby Godsey retired on 30 June 2006 after 27 years as Mercer's President. During Godsey's tenure, Mercer established seven new colleges and schools, growing from four to eleven, expanded its annual budget to more than $175 million, and increased the endowment to almost $200 million with an additional $200+ million pledged in planned gifts.

http://www.answers.com/topic/mercer-university
07-25-2008 12:49 PM
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