Not too sure if anyone will see this or not, but after reading several posts over on the http://www.ninernation.net website, I wanted to respond to the 49ers fans who are clearly frustrated at the slow-pace of football progress, and one of them compared the possible 5-year time delay with the much quicker transition times made by South Alabama, Western Kentucky, and one or two others.

USA and WKU both have a FBS-level conference-affiliation waiting for them. There's nothing to negotiate, no one to persuade. They just have to step forward, and they're in. Also, at least in the case of South Alabama, there is already a decent, semi-convenient, 41,000-seat stadium available for their immediate use. The stadium (Ladd-Peebles) has been the home of the Senior Bowl for over 50 years. It is not NFL-quality but it is not a dump, either. WKU has a much smaller venue-- they're going to have to work just to get it up to 25,000. But still, at least there's no institutional arguments over where to put the damn thing-- it's already there.

I am sure that for many UNCC fans (sorry, I have just always thought of y'all that way since the Sun Belt days and the '77 F4) these comparisons will be no excuse for the way that their university-leadership has been dragging its feet on this. In one sense, it is frustrating to me, too, because I think they would be an ideal addition to C-USA. But adding I-A football is a huge, HUGE undertaking under any scenario. When the stadium is non-existent, and no (I-A) conference is waiting in the wings, it just takes time.

A kind post. Thanks, NG.

The school (and the city) has undergone tremendous growth over the years to the point that it's almost unrecognizable from the 1970s. Some use the 'UNCC' in an insulting way ... but I suppose you can't forget where you came from. I'd love to hang a UNCC Final Four jersey on my wall someday!

I'd bore you to tears if I described all the roadblocks in getting football back after a nearly 60 year absence. But, suffice to say, the frustration is not just a matter of the timeframe for getting a team on the field. It's a lot more involved than that. ...and I could write a book about it, if I wanted to! I appreciated the reassurance that "it just takes time" ... oh, how I wish that were true. You'd be amazed at the fight that was sustained to just get a football study. A lot of forces - both internal and external - were at work to prevent football from ever occuring.

As far as stadiums go, the city of Charlotte does have some options. There's the 24k seat stadium that was built next to the old campus where UNCC used to play football in the 1940s - now a historical landmark. But the stadium needs to be renovated and parking is a mess. There's also the NFL stadium that the Panthers use.

But the best option might be the one they're planning - temporarily expanding the soccer field (which holds 4000 now) while building an on-campus stadium similar to the one UCF built.

It's also nice to be wanted back into Conference USA. But without Cincinnati, Marquette, Louisville, etc - I don't know if it's a good idea to re-join anymore. If Memphis ever bolts, what is left for basketball?

survivor Wrote:It's also nice to be wanted back into Conference USA. But without Cincinnati, Marquette, Louisville, etc - I don't know if it's a good idea to re-join anymore.

Once burned, twice shy. I can appreciate that. But in all candor-- if not C-USA, then where?

Charlotte really needs to be one of the ones spearheading an effort to start an FBS league in the A-10 or CAA. There are enough schools discussing upgrades to make a new football conference feasible. The only challenge will be getting enough non-participants to move to the SoCon or whichever league of the A-10 and CAA isn't sponsoring the league.

If Charlotte doesn't go that route, I'd really think the Sun Belt would have both them and Georgia State on the radar. It's been a while, but both schools were members of the Sun Belt. Now that Denver has announced their inevitable departure, the only thing that needs to happen is to get UALR and UNO out of the way.

Even if Memphis and/or Central Florida both leave Conference USA, Charlotte and Georgia State would make excellent institutional and geographic fits in Conference USA.

I think that-- once Charlotte and Georgia State actually have "FBS"-level football teams up and running, they would both be great additions to C-USA.

chargeradio Wrote:Even if Memphis and/or Central Florida both leave Conference USA, Charlotte and Georgia State would make excellent ... geographic fits in Conference USA.

Geographic fits? Doesn't ECU complain about traveling to El Paso all the time? I think even the Sun Belt is closer.

As far as re-joining C-USA, keep in mind that Charlotte is going to want to be in a conference where it can continue to chase basketball at-large bids. Don't forget - there's a lot of money that sustains athletic departments with the CBS contract (right now, conferences are paid about $1million per game (over 5 years) in the March Madness bracket). Take them out of a conference with Xavier, St. Joe's, Temple (not to mention UMass, Rhode Island, Dayton, GWU, Saint Louis, & Richmond) and put them in a Memphis-less C-USA and you're likely to lose millions on the CBS contract alone. As I said, there's not much to entice Charlotte to join with their rivals all gone. They were the powerhouses.

Charlotte expected to grow to 30,000 by 2020, but recently changed its mind and now believes it has the infrastructure to grow to 40,000 within 12 years. Combine that with one of the nation's largest and growing tv markets and I think you can set your sights higher than Conference USA ... as long as you can keep your sports strong. It's nice to be wanted, but I'm not sure Conference USA is necessarily what Charlotte wants right now.

survivor Wrote:I think you can set your sights higher than Conference USA ... as long as you can keep your sports strong. It's nice to be wanted, but I'm not sure Conference USA is necessarily what Charlotte wants right now.

All well and good, but it doesn't really answer the question:

Native Georgian Wrote:if not C-USA, then where?

I think anyone who posts to these boards understands quite well that Charlotte will never be in the ACC so long as UNC, Duke, Wake, and State have anything to say about it. The Big East, with 8 football members, might-- at least theoretically-- want to expand at some point in the future, and Charlotte might-- at least theoretically-- be given an invitation to join when and if that expansion does occur.

I am not saying that either of those possibilities can never come true. I am saying that Charlotte should think long and hard about whether it want to commit the resources necessary to create and sustain FBS-level football, on the assumption that both of them will come true, and will do so on a time-schedule that will justify the expense, which of course must be borne up-front and without any outside assistance by Charlotte, alone.

Hey! There's life here too! Keep it up guys!

FBS A-10 South: (*non-football member)
Charlotte/Appalachian State (SoCon)
Georgia State (CAA)/Georgia Southern (SoCon)
Old Dominion (CAA)/James Madison (CAA)
St. Louis

FBS A-10 North: (*non-football member)
George Washington*/Delaware (CAA)
Massachussets/Fordham*
Xavier*/Dayton*
Temple

Three of the five non-football members are needed for 6/5 compliance. In the event Xavier and Dayton are nabbed by a post-split Big East, the conference can stay at twelve schools.

The FCS CAA absorbs the remainder of the A-10, but donates Richmond and UNC-Wilmington to the SoCon:

FCS CAA North:
La Salle*/St. Joseph's*
St. Bonaventure*/Hofstra
Rhode Island/Northeatern

FCS CAA South:
Towson/William & Mary
George Mason*/VCU*
Duquesne*/Drexel*

Maine, New Hampshire, and Villanova continue their football-only membership, while Stony Brook removes its football program from the Big South.

The SoCon gets Richmond and UNC-Wilmington for its efforts:

FCS SoCon North:
Richmond/UNC-Wilmington*
Elon/UNC-Greensboro*
Western Carolina/Davidson*

FCS SoCon South:
Samford/Chattanooga
The Citadel/College of Charleston
Wofford/Furman

Charger, do you have any sort of estimated time-frame on when all that would happen? I'm guessing somewhere between 40 years from now and never.

chargeradio Wrote:FBS A-10 South: (*non-football member)
Charlotte/Appalachian State (SoCon)
Georgia State (CAA)/Georgia Southern (SoCon)
Old Dominion (CAA)/James Madison (CAA)
St. Louis

FBS A-10 North: (*non-football member)
George Washington*/Delaware (CAA)
Massachussets/Fordham*
Xavier*/Dayton*
Temple

Three of the five non-football members are needed for 6/5 compliance. In the event Xavier and Dayton are nabbed by a post-split Big East, the conference can stay at twelve schools.

The FCS CAA absorbs the remainder of the A-10, but donates Richmond and UNC-Wilmington to the SoCon:

FCS CAA North:
La Salle*/St. Joseph's*
St. Bonaventure*/Hofstra
Rhode Island/Northeatern

FCS CAA South:
Towson/William & Mary
George Mason*/VCU*
Duquesne*/Drexel*

Maine, New Hampshire, and Villanova continue their football-only membership, while Stony Brook removes its football program from the Big South.

The SoCon gets Richmond and UNC-Wilmington for its efforts:

FCS SoCon North:
Richmond/UNC-Wilmington*
Elon/UNC-Greensboro*
Western Carolina/Davidson*

FCS SoCon South:
Samford/Chattanooga
The Citadel/College of Charleston
Wofford/Furman

Not bad. Some pretty good ideas in there.

If you want to try to turn the A-10 into an FBS conference, you might also want to bring in Buffalo&Temple as a pair from the MAC. I know Delaware has been FBS-ready for years and years but chose to remain in the CAA, so that was a smart addition. ODU & Ga. State, I believe, are thinking FBS. I'd probably keep UMass (which is studying a jump to FBS) & Rhode Island as a pair and take out Fordham and perhaps George Washington. St. Joe's has one of the best reputations as a basketball school (they were a 1-seed a couple years ago) and I'd strongly consider them for basketball-only. Saint Louis has invested a lot in their basketball - with a new state-of-the art 10k seat arena (which is sure to sell out) to replace the cavernous 20k arena they hired a HOF coach in Rick Majerus but I'm not sure where they'll end up. The MVC wants them in the worst way and I can't say I blame them. I dunno about Ga. Southern or James Madison. I think Richmond would rather hang themselves than join the SoCon. They may have lost games in recent years, but they're still on a solid enough foundation.

Interesting to say the least - you got my ol' noggin' spinning. Not a bad conversation-starter.

Native Georgian Wrote:All well and good, but it doesn't really answer the question:

Native Georgian Wrote:if not C-USA, then where?

You sound like our chancellor. He talks about finding the right conference & bowl game money but seems to expect the landscape to remain the same forever. It's too rigid and pretty foolhardy. Football should be there to protect the school in case another shakeup occurs, IMO.

Take USF, for instance. They took the field as a IAA independent (later a IA independent) in 1997. They did not join C-USA until 2003. The whole reason they started football was because they were terrified that they would end up somewhere like the Big South. They thought ahead, prepared themselves, and came out smelling like a rose. UAB was also IAA/IA independent from 1991-1998.

Charlotte has been studying football since January, 2007 and likely won't stop studying until at least September of this year. Then it will wait 5 years to prepare to be a FCS football school. Charlotte could be looking at they years 2017-18 to finally become a FBS independent. Do you really think it would be wise to look at the present day Conference USA to determine whether or not to start-up football? Who knows what the future holds?

IMO, if the school concentrates on building football up the right way, the school will be able to adapt to however the conference picture falls into place. Patience.

survivor Wrote:Take USF, for instance... They thought ahead, prepared themselves, and came out smelling like a rose.

And Charlotte just might be the next USF. But it also just might be the next Louisiana Tech (speaking here solely of football, not other sports and certainly not academics).

Quote:UAB was also IAA/IA independent from 1991-1998.

UAB is actually a great example. If Charlotte makes the necessary investments to obtain a "IA"-type football program, and winds up with UAB-type performance on the field to show for it, will Charlotte still be able to look back and say, "Yes, that was the right decision."?

Quote:Do you really think it would be wise to look at the present day Conference USA to determine whether or not to start-up football?

No, and of course that was not my advice. Rather, my advice was-- in so many words-- to not look at USF's incredible good fortune and blithely assume that the same outcome will happen for anyone else. I use the word "fortune" very deliberately, not only because that describes the financial windfall that USF receives as a member of the Cartel, but also because USF benefited from events over which they had no influence, and which no one predicted. Namely, accidents of geography and the cannibalistic orgy that ripped apart the Big East and C-USA in 2003. Might something like that ever happen again? Sure. Should Charlotte or anyone else create a "IA"-football program from scratch in the joint-expectation that it will happen, *And* that Charlotte will be one of the beneficiaries?

Native Georgian Wrote:Should Charlotte or anyone else create a "IA"-football program from scratch in the joint-expectation that it will happen, *And* that Charlotte will be one of the beneficiaries?

Charlotte should create a football program for the sake of creating a football program. That's what USF & UAB did, as well as many other "IA"-football programs from scratch. Football is long overdue, anyway - especially considering the potential size of the school. There's a lot of people in the Charlotte metro area that don't like traveling 2 hours to watch a Saturday afternoon football game.

You would suggest that Charlotte should never create a football program from scratch and just expect to have basketball, etc. to be protected in future conference configurations? USF could not expect/predict the good things that happened to them with football. No one did. But they certainly expected/predicted bad things to happen without it.

The Big East/C-USA situation demonstrated just how far Catholic schools protect each other and try to stay together. There were several very qualified public schools that desired Big East membership. But Villanova, Seton Hall, St. John's, Providence, Notre Dame, etc. demanded that fellow Catholic schools be added to in order to balance out the additions of public universities with football. They refused to budge. So the Big East picked up DePaul (???) and Marquette.

With that in mind, it's not a reach to think that Charlotte could be stuck in an awful conference they don't want to be in if they don't do something about it. All the best basketball-only schools (Xavier, St. Joe's, Dayton, Saint Louis and on and on) are typically small, private, Catholic schools with no love for the big public university. In addition, football schools don't give a crap about schools without football. Charlotte could be in a situation where it has incredibly successful basketball teams year after year ... it's baseball and golf and Olympic-sports teams could win Nat'l Championships ... but in the end, still get dumped in a suck-ass conference. ... Like Conference USA! ...


....only teasing.

survivor Wrote:You would suggest that Charlotte should never create a football program from scratch and just expect to have basketball, etc. to be protected in future conference configurations?

No, but I am suggesting that Charlotte-- students, alums, fans, donors, etc.-- go into this with its eyes wide-open. And that goes for your wallets, too.

Quote:Charlotte should create a football program for the sake of creating a football program... Charlotte could be in a situation where it has incredibly successful basketball teams year after year ... but in the end, still get dumped in a suck-ass conference. ... Like Conference USA! ... ....only teasing.

Actually you're not far wrong. Making ends meet in C-USA, year-in and year-out, *is* a stiff challenge. To say nothing of the Sun Belt or the MAC or whatever. And if Charlotte would be okay with something like that, then by all means go ahead at full speed.

There is an upside to a college having a "big-time" football program. Those of us in the South, especially, understand this from childhood. But there is a downside, too. The rise of the Cartel has greatly magnified both halves of the equation, and for a university that is not yet committed one way or the other, the urgent necessity of studying all the pros and cons cannot be emphasized too strongly. That, really, is the advice I would give to Charlotte, or Georgia State, or ODU, or anyone else who is thinking about making this jump. It would be one thing if the Commissioner of the Southeastern Conference called Charlotte's Chancellor and said, "Let's do this starting in 2014" or whenever. But in the absence of such a promise, it really is a huge gamble. Make sure that you can afford to pay if it doesn't turn out like you hope.

Instead of lecturing and making assumptions about how Charlotte is going about this without both eyes open, why not just look at the info that's out there? This isn't a bad start: http://charlotte49ers.cstv.com/auto_pdf/...ility-narr

The full football feasibility report (about 200 pages long) from Dec. 2006 is also available on the website. The school has spent months researching additional info (what, I have no idea) and still has months to go.

I would also point out that mid-sized private schools like Tulane usually have a more difficult experience in spreading out the costs of football among its student body. But I would also argue (and agree with you) that football is a rewarding venture for Tulane that goes beyond budget value.

Native Georgian Wrote:Charger, do you have any sort of estimated time-frame on when all that would happen? I'm guessing somewhere between 40 years from now and never.

Probably 2017-2025. The key points will be:

1) Temple not joining the MAC or Big East, who the A-10 would need for their own football league and compliance with the 6/5 rule.
2) Getting FBS commitments from the existing FCS powers.
3) Conference USA and/or the Sun Belt not getting raided and decimating the pool of upgrade candidates-especially by taking Charlotte (see remarks on Temple).
4) No major changes in the NCAA's structure.

Survivor, the reason I moved St. Joe's was so that Temple would be the only A-10 team in the Philadelphia market. If I didn't move Ricmond and UNC-Wilmington, the CAA and/or A-10 would be larger than their present sizes. I moved Rhode Island to the CAA simply because it would be much harder for them to upgrade to FBS-not to say it can't be done, because they are a similar size to some FBS schools, but it would be unlikely for them to make such a move. Rhode Island also plays football in the CAA now, so it does help them move towards an all-sports conference.

You could also have the CAA take in Maine, New Hampshire, and Stony Brook themselves for all sports, and have three of the displaced Atlantic 10 members (say St. Bonaventure, La Salle, and Duquesne) replace them in America East. America East would finally get some members located Between UMBC and Binghamton.

Obviously, if Xavier and Dayton go, there is less movement required from everyone else. If the Big East splits sometime next decade, Xavier and Dayton will probably be the first to go.

ESPN's Andy Katz posted a little blurb that is making its rounds on various messageboards:

Quote:The MAC meetings are going on in Chicago, and according to a coach in attendance, there was more talk about expanding the league to 14 teams with adding Temple (Atlantic 10 for all sports but football) and Western Kentucky (Sun Belt) as full members.

This board loves to talk expansion, so I thought I'd pass it along.

That would probably be a good move for Western Kentucky.

I suppose Temple doesn't have much choice except to camp out in the MAC for a while. But it's very hard to picture them there, long-term. Seems like they have little in common with the rest of the league (Philadelphia vs. small-town midwest). Geography doesn't make much sense, either.

Get Boston, Philadelphia, Charlotte, Atlanta, Buffalo, Norfolk, Orlando and Memphis together, and you can sell that conference to television even if the football is terrible at first. How you get the schools in those 8 markets talking to each other, I have no idea, but I think it'd work out for the better for all of them if they could do it. Now that their BCS situation has stabilized, the Big East isn't expanding or splitting unless they're raided again. A split makes perfect sense, but there's nobody in place with the power and vision to make it happen. They'll beat around the bush but ultimately take the path of least resistance, which is to do nothing. Someone of vision needs to make a new eastern conference happen, otherwise nothing is happening.