The income gap between the ACC and The BEast is about to close. The new TV deal takes effect this year.

it will be closer... but still short of ACC.

Cuse has nothing in terms of market in Syracuse. The Big 10 wants NY and I guess our graduates, like myself, reside in NY or are native New YOrkers and the Lubin House for Cuse is in NY. But I don't see the Big10 wooing Syracuse. I think they go for Rutgers. I think Rutgers would be a big loss to the BE if they go.

Basketball bids are going to be the deciding factor. I think MT was also thinking that the big east would get 9 or 10 bids in the ncaa, which also has not happen either. Mark my words, those bids will be the deciding factor.

RUmojo Wrote:The problem is the conferences structure makes it unstable. The bball schools publicly complain about scheduling and tournament bids. The fball schools publicly complain about scheduling and expansion issues. Yet, Tranghese publicly states that there are no real issues and everyone is happy.

Even if "inside" the league it was turning upside down, Tranghese PUBLICLY would have to state that everything is fine...and everyone is happy.

Commissioners almost never publicly talk about unpleasantries and/or what they might do in the future (until officially passed by school presidents/chancellors)...as it could easily upset their current membership (this case, non-football Big East Schools).

Nothing will happen in the Big East for probably another 2-3 years...when maybe new invites with a potential spilt in 2012/2013 might go out.

Till then...any Commish would say things are GREAT!

PS. Imagine the upheaval/chaos Tranghese would create if he made PUBLIC statements about "totally changing" his conference around over the next 3-5 years.....

Total chaos amongst current members would pursue...others looking to bail ASAP so they can have a soft landing "somewhere", etc...

KnightLight Wrote:Even if "inside" the league it was turning upside down, Tranghese PUBLICLY would have to state that everything is fine...and everyone is happy.

Commissioners almost never publicly talk about unpleasantries and/or what they might do in the future (until officially passed by school presidents/chancellors)...as it could easily upset their current membership (this case, non-football Big East Schools).

Nothing will happen in the Big East for probably another 2-3 years...when maybe new invites with a potential spilt in 2012/2013 might go out.

Till then...any Commish would say things are GREAT!

PS. Imagine the upheaval/chaos Tranghese would create if he made PUBLIC statements about "totally changing" his conference around over the next 3-5 years.....

Total chaos amongst current members would pursue...others looking to bail ASAP so they can have a soft landing "somewhere", etc...

Of course. Even though I would prefer a split, or some sort of realignment, I don't expect the commish to come out and say, "oh, this league has problems."

bitcruncher Wrote:

MU88 Wrote:if you dump the bball schools, you will lose your ties to the Chicago, New York, Milwaukee, D.C. and Phily markets.

Obviously, you don't know where the football schools are located geographically. Chicago and Milwaukee were never markets for The BEast in football. That is Big 10 country, and saying anything otherwise is stupid.

This is true, but part of the BB contract was based on TV exposure in Chicago and Milwauke markets. In addition, some FB games are sindicated to those markets and others (Baltimore and DC) by simply having some of the BB schools in the league. However, I honestly don't know how much the league gets paid for these syndicated games though.

Here are the BB affiliates:
http://espn.go.com/tvlistings/ertbigeastbbaffl.html

Unfortunately, I couldn't find the post that lists the FB affiliates.

bitcruncher Wrote:As for New York and Philadelphia, Rutgers and UConn have New York sandwiched, so that market isn't lost for football or basketball. Rutgers has a share of the Philly market too, and The BEast is the only major college game in town for the Philadelphia or NYC TV market regions. So there is no effect on Philly or NYC either.

Penn State

bitcruncher Wrote:The income gap between the ACC and The BEast is about to close. The new TV deal takes effect this year.

Not completely but its certainly much closer than it was with the old contract. The ACC's TV deal is still $2.5 million more ON AVERAGE per conference member.

KnightLight Wrote:

RUmojo Wrote:The problem is the conferences structure makes it unstable. The bball schools publicly complain about scheduling and tournament bids. The fball schools publicly complain about scheduling and expansion issues. Yet, Tranghese publicly states that there are no real issues and everyone is happy.

Even if "inside" the league it was turning upside down, Tranghese PUBLICLY would have to state that everything is fine...and everyone is happy.

Commissioners almost never publicly talk about unpleasantries and/or what they might do in the future (until officially passed by school presidents/chancellors)...as it could easily upset their current membership (this case, non-football Big East Schools).

Nothing will happen in the Big East for probably another 2-3 years...when maybe new invites with a potential spilt in 2012/2013 might go out.

Till then...any Commish would say things are GREAT!

PS. Imagine the upheaval/chaos Tranghese would create if he made PUBLIC statements about "totally changing" his conference around over the next 3-5 years.....

Total chaos amongst current members would pursue...others looking to bail ASAP so they can have a soft landing "somewhere", etc...

That would make sense if the goal was to make this hybrid mess work. Everyone acts like a split is common knowledge and will happen within the next few years. If the bball schools know a split is coming, why complain? If the fball schools know a split is coming, why complain? If Tranghese put this mess together as a temporary fix to help both leagues get on their feet before the split, why is he trying to convince everyone that the hybrid is working?

I never said that Tranghese should make public statements about anything. I said that he publicly states that nothing is wrong, while all around him his coaches and AD's are complaining about league issues. IMO, it really doesn't matter what MT says or doesn't say, all people have to do is look around to see whats really going on.

I don't know how many followed the BE before Miami and the rest left but this situation is eerily similar. UM spent years trying to get Tranghese to expand the league and find ways to increase revenue but MT insisted that the league was fine as it was, well we know how that turned out. The upheaval that you speak of has already happened and it would probably happen again, the problem is the bball schools aren't going anywhere, they'll enjoy the ride for as long as they can. The fball schools have nowhere to go, (outside of the one spot that the B10 may or may not fill). So what does that leave? Hopefully a split but a split won't be something that MT or the bball schools initiate or work for, it'll have to be something that the fball schools take upon themselves to get done.

Hoquista Wrote:

bitcruncher Wrote:The income gap between the ACC and The BEast is about to close. The new TV deal takes effect this year.

Not completely but its certainly much closer than it was with the old contract. The ACC's TV deal is still $2.5 million more ON AVERAGE per conference member.

True. But as The BEast continues to have success, and larger fan contingiencies that travel than ACC teams, it will diminish further in future talks - and could even turn the monetary advantage to The BEast.

I see this trend as a continuing process. There is a lot of growth potential among all conference members.

bitcruncher Wrote:

MU88 Wrote:if you dump the bball schools, you will lose your ties to the Chicago, New York, Milwaukee, D.C. and Phily markets.

Obviously, you don't know where the football schools are located geographically. Chicago and Milwaukee were never markets for The BEast in football. That is Big 10 country, and saying anything otherwise is stupid.

As for New York and Philadelphia, Rutgers and UConn have New York sandwiched, so that market isn't lost for football or basketball. Rutgers has a share of the Philly market too, and The BEast is the only major college game in town for the Philadelphia or NYC TV market regions. So there is no effect on Philly or NYC either.

That just shot the heck out of that. Any other stupid comments that need shooting down?

Milwaukee gets the syndicated BE football package as well as the basketball package, so it is now a BE football market, and has been for the last 3 seasons. Milwaukee wasn't a BE football market before Marquette became a Big East member, and I don't think MU gets any FB TV money for supplying another BE market. Just an example of the FB schools leeching off the BB schools (sarcasm off).

The FB Presidents must see something valuable in this grouping outside of football to go beyond 2010 if MT's comment about 2013 is true. Any thoughts as to what that could be?

Everyone knows there will be a split. It's better for both sides. The BB only schools don't need the FB schools to be happy. They're not making money with the FB schools being here. They will make more money without us because they will get more NCAA bids. They will have their top four teams all deserving bids as will the FB schools. They know we split we put six teams in the tournament combined every year guaranteed. At least three from each conference because someone has to win the new conferences, come in second and come in third. The BE BB schools all have great reputations and adding Marq. and Depaul to Gtown, seton Hall, St. Johns and villanova still makes the BB only schools a top tier BB conference. They don't need the FB schools. Every one of the schools I have mentioned have made it to final four on their own. Three have won national titles.
Seton Hall and St. Johns have both played an lost in the NCAA title game. Seton Hall lost to Mich. by one point in overtime in their championship game. These schools are not the A10- as someone suggested. They have made their mark on their own in NCAA history and will do so again.
The Hybrid helps the FB schools because we can't split until we've played together for five years according to NCAA rules at the time we formed the new BE.
Nobody's complaining that's not self serving. Boeheim complained last year saying he had a winning record in the BE but did not make the tournament. He was saying if he can't make the tournament with "THAT" record, "I don't need to be in this conference." Meaning he worked hard in THIS conference to earn THAT record and got no respect.
That happened, in reality, because the BE had a record number of bids the previous year. The ACC had reps on last year's selection committee. They got jealous and cut down what the BE was going to get while increasing what the ACC got. I think the ACC had a healthy number, something like six teams in last year. But all, save NC, got eliminated early. Even Duke got slammed in the first or second round. So, so much for giving undeserving teams a tournament bid.
UCONN's FB coach has fewer conference home games this year. He wants another team so he can average out his home conference schedule. What's the big deal. He's not saying the conference sucks. He just wants a balance conference schedule every year to give him a better chance at a winning record every year instead of every other year.
In either case is the coaches were not saying the BE is in shambles. They were saying there are problems. The ACC has not won a BCS game this century- do you hear Swofford saying hisconference has problems? But they do. They were in danger of losing their BCS bid before the raid and they're still not living up to expectation so far.
Every conference has issues.
The SEC wants a playoff because they feel cheated because they think they are the best. EX: in a playoff they felt UGA would face LSU after kicking @$$ of all the "pretenders."
The BIG10 and the PAC10 don't want a playoff because they know they are pretenders.
Everybody got issues and the BE issues are not worse than anyone elses. We'll split soon enough- the bigger question is who can we add that is quality and not saying "we're gonna be something or we'll run the state once you let us in?" Anybody we can add today will still be sitting there waiting for us three years from now. If they're available now, they'll be there three years from now.
If the Big10 Network is making themoney they projected it would, they could raid the SEC for a 12 the team. MOney talks and every college is listening. In fact if the money was big enough, top BCS teams would ask the Big10 for an invite and make an argument why they are a better fit than Rutgers or Syr. or any BE team.
We weren't raided last time because we were in shambles. We were raided because the ACC was in shambles. Miami's Shalayla lied. BC panicked. VT got state officials to step in and then reversed their lawsuit. Nobody needs to panic this time around. The sky is not falling just yet.

frogman Wrote:But why pull the trigger on anything right now? Adding Memphis, ECu and UCF won't stop the Big 10 from inviting Rutgers- if that's what they want to do.

Mike T is right when he says there's no one to add right now that does more than split our money nine ways instead of eight while paying another struggling program in never-never land. Adding another developing program won't help us.

Let's see what Cincy and Pitt can do this year. As the BCS conference with the lowest amounts of money, why should Mike T rush to split that money nine ways? Unless that ninth team brings something worthwhile to the conference.

i tend to agree, although i thought our conference recruiting was about the same as it has been, with some schools making some positive strides like cinci and syracuse. the only real disappointment was louisville who were on the cusp of achieving elite recruiting status before petrino left. didn't make things better that krapthorpe's in panic mode and half of his recruits are jucos. i also disagree that memphis can't add to the football side, they bring a 65,000 stadium, with great local support in a large and new market, plus the liberty bowl. also, cusa was built on the backs of the louisville/memphis/cinci rivalry and it just seems strange they're no longer in the same conference. the usf/memphis game has the potential to be a pretty bitter game as well considering the bad blood developed over the years.

MUAvalanche Wrote:The FB Presidents must see something valuable in this grouping outside of football to go beyond 2010 if MT's comment about 2013 is true. Any thoughts as to what that could be?

Perhaps MT wants to show a united Big East to our media partners. There is no telling what is going on behind the scenes. In the article he mentions that football coaches aren't the only ones complaining about the schedule. MT said basketball coaches are complaining too. What he doesn't tell you is those basketball coaches are at football member schools as well, Jim Boeheim and Rick Pitino.
When dealing with MT you have to remember he is a basketball guy first. He has never been at a school with a football program and until 1991 he had never even been associated with a conference with football.
When the AD's and Presidents / Chancellors of the football playing schools act it could well be without MT's knowledge.
Bottomline is MT stays so wrapped up in basketball that he doesn't have a clue about what Big East football is doing. Besides it wouldn't be the first time he ever got blindsided, would it?
CJ

And just to add to Frogman's point, about the BBall Schools and how they would still be a Top Tier Conference, imagine this 12 team nightmare of a conference and the tournament that follows the regular season.

Georgetown
Villanova
Marquette
DePaul
Seton Hall
St. Johns
Providence
Norte Dame (if it doesn't go to the Big 10)
Xavier
Dayton
St. Louis (They're not paying Rick Majerus, a million a year to go to the Valley.)
St. Joseph's (Villanova will have to deal)

And should Norte Dame leave, you either add Duquesne or Holy Cross as a team that will only develop under such a competitive environment.

A Big East with that configuration would...

1) Challenge to be one of the Top 6 Conferences every single year.
2) Be a massive TV draw
3) Sell out Arenas, almost nightly
4) Have a kickass conference tournament, that would be regarded as one of the best.
5) Recruit on the Highest Levels.
6) Piss off the SEC and ACC greatly, as it has the potential to steal even more bids from them.

I don't see how the BBall Schools lose in a spilt.

I think the biggest fear of the basketball schools is losing the BCS tag.

Sure BCS is only suppose to be a football thing but anyone that doesn't think it permiates into basketball is being naive. All the majors media players like ESPN and CBS are already trying the make the line clearer and clearer.

From having things like mid-major player of the week to the best non-bcs poll. Every year we see more and more conferences start becoming "mid-major" conferences.

Don't think for a minute that a non-bcs league, even a league that does not play division 1 football and have tons of tradition, could even compare to a BCS league in the current college sports landscape. I'd expect a lot of old CUSA schools know what I'm talking about. Even years when the old CUSA was better than half the BCS conferences, it still never got the respect like the BCS conferences.

The basketball schools and Trainedgeese knows where this landscape is heading and will never even fathom splitting from the football schools on their own will and will use their their voice (Trainedgeese) to do everything in his power to prevent a split. If you ever go to the basketball school message boards you'd see most fans would not ever want a split. A desire for a split is mostly isolated to the football schools where we called for it daily.

This is also why the BE had 0 chance of losing its BCS bid and why the MWC have 0 chance of gaining a BCS bid. The BCS is a collection of the major players in the business end of college sports. Remember the BCS is not a outside organization. Its is a collection of 6 conferences and leader of these conferences make all the rules. So what good for these 6 conferences is good for the BCS. Doesn't matter if its football or basketball. In the BE's case in 2004 allowing northeast basketball to be dominated by non-BCS schools was not going to be allowed by the other conferences (well maybe except the ACC) and the networks.

CardinalJim Wrote:

MUAvalanche Wrote:The FB Presidents must see something valuable in this grouping outside of football to go beyond 2010 if MT's comment about 2013 is true. Any thoughts as to what that could be?

Perhaps MT wants to show a united Big East to our media partners. There is no telling what is going on behind the scenes. In the article he mentions that football coaches aren't the only ones complaining about the schedule. MT said basketball coaches are complaining too. What he doesn't tell you is those basketball coaches are at football member schools as well, Jim Boeheim and Rick Pitino.
When dealing with MT you have to remember he is a basketball guy first. He has never been at a school with a football program and until 1991 he had never even been associated with a conference with football.
When the AD's and Presidents / Chancellors of the football playing schools act it could well be without MT's knowledge.
Bottomline is MT stays so wrapped up in basketball that he doesn't have a clue about what Big East football is doing. Besides it wouldn't be the first time he ever got blindsided, would it?
CJ

The current split agreement only allows the football schools to leave the BB schools in 2010 without financial penalty, after giving a one year notice in 2009. There is no such contract for 2013. So if the split is being concerned, you will soon hear the rumors and rumblings. And I think, we have the UConn basketball and football coaches have spoken as has the Cuse basketball coach. WVA is unhappy with football coaching. Louisville basketball coach has complained that the BE is to large. Louisville and Cincinnati are scheduling Memphis! And Mike T. say everyone is happy and he refuses to add a 9th football team. Well, stay tuned because shitz will start hitting the fan this summer or in the spring of 2009, if a split is indeed in the works.

ccbfan Wrote:I think the biggest fear of the basketball schools is losing the BCS tag.

Sure BCS is only suppose to be a football thing but anyone that doesn't think it permiates into basketball is being naive. All the majors media players like ESPN and CBS are already trying the make the line clearer and clearer.

From having things like mid-major player of the week to the best non-bcs poll. Every year we see more and more conferences start becoming "mid-major" conferences.

Don't think for a minute that a non-bcs league, even a league that does not play division 1 football and have tons of tradition, could even compare to a BCS league in the current college sports landscape. I'd expect a lot of old CUSA schools know what I'm talking about. Even years when the old CUSA was better than half the BCS conferences, it still never got the respect like the BCS conferences.

The basketball schools and Trainedgeese knows where this landscape is heading and will never even fathom splitting from the football schools on their own will and will use their their voice (Trainedgeese) to do everything in his power to prevent a split. If you ever go to the basketball school message boards you'd see most fans would not ever want a split. A desire for a split is mostly isolated to the football schools where we called for it daily.

This is also why the BE had 0 chance of losing its BCS bid and why the MWC have 0 chance of gaining a BCS bid. The BCS is a collection of the major players in the business end of college sports. Remember the BCS is not a outside organization. Its is a collection of 6 conferences and leader of these conferences make all the rules. So what good for these 6 conferences is good for the BCS. Doesn't matter if its football or basketball. In the BE's case in 2004 allowing northeast basketball to be dominated by non-BCS schools was not going to be allowed by the other conferences (well maybe except the ACC) and the networks.

The above post is 100% dead on. I've tried to get this point across in the past. Tranghese finally got the message in 1991 that college football was the major player in college athletics, so he pieced together the BE football conference. If anybody has the old articles, he said on several ocassions that in order for the BE to stay relevant in the changing landscape of college athletics the conference needed to add football. For him it was all about having a seat at the table of the BCS.

The problem is other conferences evolved and became a better product, the SWC became the Big 12, Penn State to the Big 10, even the ACC raid was a move to strengthen itself in the BCS. The problem for the BE is it didn't evolve or strengthen itself. MT tried to keep his bball conference while creating a football conference that would allow him to have his foot in the door of the BCS.

I read an article a few weeks ago that talked about how many BCS schools made it to the NCAA tournament, the sweet 16, elite 8, and final 4 since the BCS was formed. Of course the BCS conferences dominated the numbers. What I found interesting is that schools like Villanova, Georgetown, and Marquette had a star next to their names and at the bottom of the page was the note, affiliate members of a BCS conference. That was the point I was trying to make earlier, the bball schools are viewed as BCS status without having to make the financial comittment that a true BCS school has to make. ccbfan is right, talk to any bball school and they love this set up. Its the fball schools that are doing all the complaining and IMO, rightfully so.

SilverPhoenix Wrote:And just to add to Frogman's point, about the BBall Schools and how they would still be a Top Tier Conference, imagine this 12 team nightmare of a conference and the tournament that follows the regular season.

Georgetown
Villanova
Marquette
DePaul
Seton Hall
St. Johns
Providence
Norte Dame (if it doesn't go to the Big 10)
Xavier
Dayton
St. Louis (They're not paying Rick Majerus, a million a year to go to the Valley.)
St. Joseph's (Villanova will have to deal)

And should Norte Dame leave, you either add Duquesne or Holy Cross as a team that will only develop under such a competitive environment.

A Big East with that configuration would...

1) Challenge to be one of the Top 6 Conferences every single year.
2) Be a massive TV draw
3) Sell out Arenas, almost nightly
4) Have a kickass conference tournament, that would be regarded as one of the best.
5) Recruit on the Highest Levels.
6) Piss off the SEC and ACC greatly, as it has the potential to steal even more bids from them.

I don't see how the BBall Schools lose in a spilt.

I agree. That league seems to be all catholic but it would be one of the best 5 or 6 leagues every year. That league does not even include Rhode Island or Umass which would make it all the better.

RUmojo Wrote:I read an article a few weeks ago that talked about how many BCS schools made it to the NCAA tournament, the sweet 16, elite 8, and final 4 since the BCS was formed. Of course the BCS conferences dominated the numbers. What I found interesting is that schools like Villanova, Georgetown, and Marquette had a star next to their names and at the bottom of the page was the note, affiliate members of a BCS conference. That was the point I was trying to make earlier, the bball schools are viewed as BCS status without having to make the financial comittment that a true BCS school has to make. ccbfan is right, talk to any bball school and they love this set up. Its the fball schools that are doing all the complaining and IMO, rightfully so.

You'd find those same schools made it to the Sweet 16 before the BCS was formed.
This is a bit of a trick situation. When the BCS was formed the strongest sports conferences, the top six, the best schools were invited to join. IF you look at BB tournament history, even prior to the BCS, the NCAA tournament was dominated by what would become BCS schools. These were simply the top schools in division one to begin with so they form the BCS and guess what, they are still the tops in FB and BB.
Louisville and Cincy and Marquette are certainly successful NCAA programs. They did all that without the BCS just like Memphis is doing now.
Off hand I'd say CUSA had the most exceptions to this BCS/BB rule. Will joining the BCS improve Memphis BB?
Even before the BCS the BE was the dominant BB conference in the north and for a time, the country. Ewing took G'town to the NCAA finals three times in his four years there. The BE is still the only conference to place three teams in the same final four. Gtown, St, johns and Villanova- all BB schools. Villanova won it all. BOston College messed up the chance to put four in the final four. (They always messed $#*% up.) But this was before the BCS was formed.
The A10 or the MWC were really just mid-majors before the BCS and they still are mid majors today. Only now are they winning against top tier division one. Though baylor and a few others had NCAA success sprinkled in their history.
The way those BCS/BB facts are presented it would seem that if Memphis joined a BCS conference people would say their BB success is a product of the BCS connection when clearly it is not. It wasn't for UMass either when they had Camby.
The biggest, the richest and the best sports schools formed the BCS. These schools, like Kentucky and UCLA dominated before the BCS was formed and continued to dominate during the era of the BCS and will probably continue to dominate if the BCS falls apart. Can the BCS take credit of UCLA's years of domination of college BB? UCLA is still a force in the finals today, popping up every couple of years. One could argue UCLA and Kentucky were even better in BB before they joined the BCS.
These schools were winning before joining the BCS. The BCS has nothing to do with thier continued BB success.
1939's final four was Oregon, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Villanova. That could be today's final four and the BCS can't take credit for it.