NIU007 Wrote:Except that you can't trust the indigenous personnel. Because of that, you at least need enough US forces to seal off whatever cave exits there are, if you can find them all. And since there are a lot of caves, the more of them you can attack at one time, the less chance of the lunatics being able to escape from one cave complex to another nearby one. I think indigenous forces can only be used in concert with or as advisors to, US forces.

Why can't you send a division into caves?

First off, because a division is about 10 thousand people, and secondly, you're apparently unaware of what the Green Berets actually do. They don't just walk up to a bunch of tribesmen and say, help us out today. They live among them, train them, provide medical care, etc. They essentially become part of them. That's their expertise. Google the Montagnards along with the Special Forces.

We're not fighting a force big enough for a division. We're fighting hit-n-runners who dive back into caves. ...and the ones that do live among the people, are being outed daily.

RebelKev Wrote:

NIU007 Wrote:Except that you can't trust the indigenous personnel. Because of that, you at least need enough US forces to seal off whatever cave exits there are, if you can find them all. And since there are a lot of caves, the more of them you can attack at one time, the less chance of the lunatics being able to escape from one cave complex to another nearby one. I think indigenous forces can only be used in concert with or as advisors to, US forces.

Why can't you send a division into caves?

First off, because a division is about 10 thousand people, and secondly, you're apparently unaware of what the Green Berets actually do. They don't just walk up to a bunch of tribesmen and say, help us out today. They live among them, train them, provide medical care, etc. They essentially become part of them. That's their expertise. Google the Montagnards along with the Special Forces.

We're not fighting a force big enough for a division. We're fighting hit-n-runners who dive back into caves. ...and the ones that do live among the people, are being outed daily.

How do we clear out cave complexes? Do we send in tribesmen? Or US forces? How many caves are there?
Sorry, I'm just trying to get a better picture of what we're doing.

NIU007 Wrote:How do we clear out cave complexes? Do we send in tribesmen? Or US forces? How many caves are there?
Sorry, I'm just trying to get a better picture of what we're doing.

At Anaconda they had Predator UAV's flying all over the valley with some fantastic photo gear, and they still didn't locate many cave openings until something was fired from it.

To find the caves you do photo recon, and then ask trusted indigenous personnel if there is anything else they should know about.

As for clearing caves there are two ways to go about it.

You can send SOF trained in close quarter combat into the caves armed with pistols, carbines, grenades, maybe a flash bang or two and they take out all the bad guys they meet. That's pretty nasty.

Or

You use percision guided munitions such as laser guided, deep pentrating bombs, ("bunker busters") Maverick missiles, Javelin missiles etc. and fire them into the cave openings. Supposedly UBL was wounded at Tora Bora from a Hav Nap missile dropped from a B-52 that was "flown" right into the cave mouth. If a deep direct hit, the explosion would most likely kill anyone in the cave by collapsing the cave or by explosive force. Then we dig it out after the battle and see what was in the there.

Of course like at Iwo Jima and Okinawa many caves have "back doors" or other exits, and or inconnected with other caves. Which means you need a lot of troops to watch the "back doors" and establish a security perimeter.

GGniner Wrote:oh, here is some 'research' on paul, that the Dems would just love to get the chance to get out there: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/5/15/124912/740

interesting part I thought was this:

Quote:Reading the entire article will show that I have not taken these quotes out of context, though the article is definitely not for everyone: it's a 3700-word racist tirade that is frankly stomach-turning in its depiction of African-Americans as violent, unevolved savages and even rapists. Without a doubt, it was articles like this one that prompted the Heritage Front, a Toronto-based neo-Nazi organization, to include the Ron Paul Political Report in its list of "Racialist Addresses and Phone Numbers."

interesting what neo-nazi's consider "Racialist"

to add to my point here, and so it begins.

New Republic: "Ron Paul called MLK a Gay Pedophile"


I'll say it again, you don't want things you beleive in associated with stuff like this, things like "Limited Govt." to have this sort of face to it. Whether its true or not, it doesn't matter. there is a record there and that is all that matters in the PR campaign in the media.

fortunately for me, Paul is the anti-thesis of Conservative Foreign Policy with his closest ally on the subject being Dennis Kucinich. And goes to a way far extreme of idealism on the domestic level.....So I have no problem disagreeing with him.

While Paul's position of cutting and running like little girls from Afghanistan is easy to attack here, especially given his Michael Moore conspiracy mongering.

Lets not forget the 1993 WTC attack by Al-Qaeda and who gave those terrorist support: Saddam Hussein, which is where Yassin fled and there is a $2 Million bounty on his head and was on Saddam's payroll. and of course Youssef who came to the US on an Iraqi Passport......

which is why Saddam was listed as a State Sponsor of Terror throughout the 90's, that and his other Terror connections. Finiancing suicide bombers in Hamas for example with $20,000 for their families, who killed themselves and innoncent Israeli's as well as Americans in Israel.

the Justice Dept. Indictment of Bin laden lays out the connections beteween he and Saddam.

and of course in 1999 when Bin Laden was on the run and Clinton didn't want to grab him. Saddam offered him assylm:
http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9902/....binladen/

Quote:Saddam Hussein offered asylum

Iraqi President Saddam Hussein has offered asylum to bin Laden, who openly supports Iraq against the Western powers.

Despite repeated demands from Washington, the Taliban refused to hand over bin Laden after the August 7 bombings of the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, demanding proof of his involvement in terrorist activities.

If you beleive in Limited Govt., don't play into the Left's Political Power play game of revisionist history. It's exactly what they want.

Quote:Yes, let us pray for the salvation of all of those who live in that totalitarian darkness - pray they will discover the joy of knowing God. But until they do, let us be aware that while they preach the supremacy of the state, declare its omnipotence over individual man, and predict its eventual domination of all peoples on the earth, they are the focus of evil in the modern world.

It was C.S. Lewis who, in his unforgettable Screwtape Letters, wrote: "The greatest evil is not done now in those sordid 'dens of rime' that Dickens loved to paint. It is not even done in concentration camps and labor camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do no need to raise their voice."


Well, because these "quiet men" do no "raise their voices," because they sometimes speak in soothing tones of brotherhood and peace, because, like other dictators before them, they're always making "their final territorial demand," some would have us accept them as their word and accommodate ourselves to their aggressive impulses. But if history teaches anything, it teaches that simpleminded appeasement or wishful thinking about our adversaries is folly. It means the betrayal of our past, the squandering of our freedom.

So, I urge you to speak our against those who would place the United States in a position of military and moral inferiority.

Ronald Reagan, "Evil Empire" speech..

the imperialist we fight today work in the shadows, the govt's that support them do so in the shadows....