I realize that. I know there are very few Christians who follow any dietary restriction. My point stands. I'm not saying that they are not "real" Christians. I'm saying that Christianity is a big tent and Christians believe many different things, and it doesn't make them any less Christian. The assertion that all Christians must believe in ID is crazy. I agree with you, I'm not sure why you are debating this point.

Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:I realize that. I know there are very few Christians who follow any dietary restriction. My point stands. I'm not saying that they are not "real" Christians. I'm saying that Christianity is a big tent and Christians believe many different things, and it doesn't make them any less Christian. The assertion that all Christians must believe in ID is crazy. I agree with you, I'm not sure why you are debating this point.

Just curious if you don't have to believe in ID to be in a Christian what is exactly is God's purpose? IF God did not create the universe how could he be the supreme being worthy of worship? IF God did not create us, he certainly would not have the ability to give eternal life.

Christianity without God who is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, who came to Earth to give us the simplest only way to eternal life has no purpose.

The three true theistic religions, Christianity, Muslim, and Judaism all are mutually exclusive paths to heaven, only 1 can be correct. You can be a Christian and believe a lot of things, but if you don't believe the Bible states one absolute truth, my second paragraph, then why bother at all.

THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:

Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:I realize that. I know there are very few Christians who follow any dietary restriction. My point stands. I'm not saying that they are not "real" Christians. I'm saying that Christianity is a big tent and Christians believe many different things, and it doesn't make them any less Christian. The assertion that all Christians must believe in ID is crazy. I agree with you, I'm not sure why you are debating this point.

Just curious if you don't have to believe in ID to be in a Christian what is exactly is God's purpose? IF God did not create the universe how could he be the supreme being worthy of worship? IF God did not create us, he certainly would not have the ability to give eternal life.

Christianity without God who is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, who came to Earth to give us the simplest only way to eternal life has no purpose.

The three true theistic religions, Christianity, Muslim, and Judaism all are mutually exclusive paths to heaven, only 1 can be correct. You can be a Christian and believe a lot of things, but if you don't believe the Bible states one absolute truth, my second paragraph, then why bother at all.

I agree...

You are either in or out. There is no in between.

THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:Just curious if you don't have to believe in ID to be in a Christian what is exactly is God's purpose? IF God did not create the universe how could he be the supreme being worthy of worship? IF God did not create us, he certainly would not have the ability to give eternal life.

Christianity without God who is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, who came to Earth to give us the simplest only way to eternal life has no purpose.

The three true theistic religions, Christianity, Muslim, and Judaism all are mutually exclusive paths to heaven, only 1 can be correct. You can be a Christian and believe a lot of things, but if you don't believe the Bible states one absolute truth, my second paragraph, then why bother at all.

First, I don't think you have not given us a definition of what ID is yet. I've heard so many different ideas about what it is. And you are basically telling me that if you don't say that you buy into ID, you can't be a Christian. Are you actually saying that all of those Theistic Evolutionist are not "true" Christians because they do not buy into ID?

Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:First, I don't think you have not given us a definition of what ID is yet. I've heard so many different ideas about what it is. And you are basically telling me that if you don't say that you buy into ID, you can't be a Christian. Are you actually saying that all of those Theistic Evolutionist are not "true" Christians because they do not buy into ID?

I guess it depends, how do Theistic Evolutionists believe life began? The very first words in the Bible “In the beginning God Created...” if you are going to dismiss the first verses why read any further.

ID means

1) God created the universe (aka the heavens and the earth)

2) All species that have ever existed (every living thing)

3) God created man (in his own image)

It does not mean that animals can not improve or evolve to the environment, but does most likely mean we did not evolve from pond scum.

If we had evolved from pond scum why is the bible so specific that we were created by God in his image and not by random chance man evolved into God's image?

FWIW, Wikipedia lists the definition of intelligent design as:

"Intelligent design is the assertion that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.""

It might be a useful hypothesis, if it weren't for the existence of other primates. And DNA.

NC Herd Fan, why try to use ID when it seems pretty clear that you subscribe to Creationism?

Quote:It might be a useful hypothesis, if it weren't for the existence of other primates. And DNA.

And the fact that ID proponents do not wish to explore who/what the designer is, or basically do anything more than sit on their hypothesis, never test it, and be completely satisfied.

Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:And the fact that ID proponents do not wish to explore who/what the designer is, or basically do anything more than sit on their hypothesis, never test it, and be completely satisfied.

A. How would you go about testing that? (Psst...I see where you are going...)

B. If there were a test that could be done, what makes you think it would be any more definitive than what the Big Bang guys have found? (The theory that Kudos and Kang were playing jacks and one of the balls exploded is just as plausible as the Big Bang, just happened with no outside influence...)

Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:NC Herd Fan, why try to use ID when it seems pretty clear that you subscribe to Creationism?

Why are you jumping on his back? His theory seems plausible to me...

1. If you are a Christian you believe in the Bible.

2. The Bible says that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

3. Using the transitive property, wouldn't it hold that to be a Christian you have to believe God created the heavens and the earth?


You may argue that to be a Christian you don't have to believe the entire Bible. In that case, I would like you to tell us what being a Christian is.

blah Wrote:

Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:And the fact that ID proponents do not wish to explore who/what the designer is, or basically do anything more than sit on their hypothesis, never test it, and be completely satisfied.

A. How would you go about testing that? (Psst...I see where you are going...)

That's my point. If it can't be tested, it really can't be science. If your designer can be detected, then it is in the realm of science, but if you say that the designer is an invisible floating dragon in my garage that doesn't give off any heat or move air around when it flaps its wings, or give off any detectable hard evidence of its existence or explain anything, then why should we accept that explanation?

Quote:B. If there were a test that could be done, what makes you think it would be any more definitive than what the Big Bang guys have found? (The theory that Kudos and Kang were playing jacks and one of the balls exploded is just as plausible as the Big Bang, just happened with no outside influence...)

No, we would expect to see remnants of the ball, or perhaps one of the jacks, or maybe some evidence that there existed some guy named Kang. The Big Bang has piles of evidence of what happened. As current understanding of the fundamental forces change, the model will change. If you do any reading into this you'll see how much the theory has changed since its inception.

Quote:Why are you jumping on his back? His theory seems plausible to me...

1. If you are a Christian you believe in the Bible.

2. The Bible says that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

3. Using the transitive property, wouldn't it hold that to be a Christian you have to believe God created the heavens and the earth?

I really didn't think I was jumping on his back. I was just pointing out that his idea about what ID says more accurately describes Creationism than ID. If you read into ID, they really try to not talk about God so much, even if that is what they believe.

Quote:You may argue that to be a Christian you don't have to believe the entire Bible. In that case, I would like you to tell us what being a Christian is.

Funny, I know plenty of Christians that don't believe the entire Bible, my wife for instance. According to you, she wouldn't be a Christian? How about the pastor of her church who believes that the stories that are contradicted by modern evidence were probably not factual accounts, but instead allegories that conveyed meaning.

It is not my place to say what Christianity is, but you don't have to be blind to see that there are many variations from Biblical Literalists to those who view some of it as allegorical to the quite interesting Christian Atheism. So while it is not my place to say what Christianity is for everyone, I don't think it is his or your place to say what it is for everyone either, only yourself.

But if someone is going to come on here and try to put out arguments for their particular religion they shouldn't complain when those view points don't always get taken seriously. Nobody is getting their posts deleted, nobody is getting banned. But, also, nobody gets their ideas protected from criticism.

Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:

Quote:No, we would expect to see remnants of the ball, or perhaps one of the jacks, or maybe some evidence that there existed some guy named Kang. The Big Bang has piles of evidence of what happened. As current understanding of the fundamental forces change, the model will change. If you do any reading into this you'll see how much the theory has changed since its inception.

Quote:Funny, I know plenty of Christians that don't believe the entire Bible, my wife for instance. According to you, she wouldn't be a Christian? How about the pastor of her church who believes that the stories that are contradicted by modern evidence were probably not factual accounts, but instead allegories that conveyed meaning.

I wasn't trying to imply that your wife is or isn't a Christian. Whether you agree with it or not, what I said was that NC Herd was making a legitimate, logical argument. Also, what I was asking was for you to give your [/quote]definition of what a Christian is. You live with one. This should be easy...

blah Wrote:I wasn't trying to imply that your wife is or isn't a Christian. Whether you agree with it or not, what I said was that NC Herd was making a legitimate, logical argument. Also, what I was asking was for you to give your definition of what a Christian is. You live with one. This should be easy...

Basically, the only think that I can see that is consistent across everyone who calls themselves Christian is an affinity to following the philosophy of Jesus Christ. Everything on top of that is just variation.

Herd's argument, that all Christians must buy into ID, throws a lot of people out of the big tent of Christianity.

Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:

blah Wrote:I wasn't trying to imply that your wife is or isn't a Christian. Whether you agree with it or not, what I said was that NC Herd was making a legitimate, logical argument. Also, what I was asking was for you to give your definition of what a Christian is. You live with one. This should be easy...

Basically, the only think that I can see that is consistent across everyone who calls themselves Christian is an affinity to following the philosophy of Jesus Christ. Everything on top of that is just variation.

Herd's argument, that all Christians must buy into ID, throws a lot of people out of the big tent of Christianity.

Again you make the assumption that Christianity is a "big tent". That may be your opinion, but not everyone (and especially not all Christians) agree with that.

I would also disagree with your definition of what a Christian is...

Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:NC Herd Fan, why try to use ID when it seems pretty clear that you subscribe to Creationism?

Quote:It might be a useful hypothesis, if it weren't for the existence of other primates. And DNA.

And the fact that ID proponents do not wish to explore who/what the designer is, or basically do anything more than sit on their hypothesis, never test it, and be completely satisfied.

Intelligent Design means a vastly superior being Created Life on Earth. That vastly superior being can be only one of two things:

1. An infinite God. By creating life God used Intelligent Design not random events.

2. Extraterrestrial life form which would make us a giant experiment.

Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:

THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:Just curious if you don't have to believe in ID to be in a Christian what is exactly is God's purpose? IF God did not create the universe how could he be the supreme being worthy of worship? IF God did not create us, he certainly would not have the ability to give eternal life.

Christianity without God who is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, who came to Earth to give us the simplest only way to eternal life has no purpose.

The three true theistic religions, Christianity, Muslim, and Judaism all are mutually exclusive paths to heaven, only 1 can be correct. You can be a Christian and believe a lot of things, but if you don't believe the Bible states one absolute truth, my second paragraph, then why bother at all.

First, I don't think you have not given us a definition of what ID is yet. I've heard so many different ideas about what it is. And you are basically telling me that if you don't say that you buy into ID, you can't be a Christian. Are you actually saying that all of those Theistic Evolutionist are not "true" Christians because they do not buy into ID?

I guess I'm still puzzled if someone is a Christian and doesn’t follow some basic statements from the Bible as fact what would the purpose of being a Christian be? If the Bible doesn't offer a framework of facts inside parables or allegories what value is the Bible. I believe the Bible answers very basic questions that man has always had.

1. Where did we come from, how did life on Earth begin?

The Bible explains very clearly God Created us. The purpose was not to give a blueprint of how, but if he was able to create us that in and of itself is Intelligent Design.

2. What is our future. The New Testament is very clear.

Those who believe in Christ and what his sacrifice on the cross meant will be blessed with eternal life. No deeds can accomplish eternal life, and no other path.

3. Our purpose, to tell everyone we meet about point 2.

There is no set of rules to call yourself Christian so in that since Christianity is a "big tent". I still ask the question if someone chooses to follow a view of the Bible different than the interpretation taught at about 95% of Christian Seminaries why bother. You should not shop for a view of Christianity that lets you live as you wish, if you have a deep belief in point 2 above to get there you really have to hold key points of the Bible as factual truth. I now have a deeper appreciation for the Bible after reading it through completely for the first time last year. I would strongly recommend everyone who is or wants to be a Christian doing this to make up their own mind and not be lead by someone else telling you what it says. Most Christians have never read the entire Bible.

I'm not running away from this conversation, but I don't think it is going anywhere anytime soon. I can see both your and blah's point of view. But anyone who looks into ID from a scientific perspective will see that it is nothing more than an argument from ignorance and old creationist complaints rehashed.

Quote:I would strongly recommend everyone who is or wants to be a Christian doing this to make up their own mind and not be lead by someone else telling you what it says. Most Christians have never read the entire Bible.

All I'll say is that you are absolutely correct. I've been going to church since I was a child (and still do) and I've been hearing the same passages over and over. Most people have never actually read the Bible cover to cover and could probably do with reading what they profess to believe. I'm just as guilty as anyone else; I've read whole books from the Bible, but never the whole thing straight through.

Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:I'm not running away from this conversation, but I don't think it is going anywhere anytime soon. I can see both your and blah's point of view. But anyone who looks into ID from a scientific perspective will see that it is nothing more than an argument from ignorance and old creationist complaints rehashed.

Quote:I would strongly recommend everyone who is or wants to be a Christian doing this to make up their own mind and not be lead by someone else telling you what it says. Most Christians have never read the entire Bible.

All I'll say is that you are absolutely correct. I've been going to church since I was a child (and still do) and I've been hearing the same passages over and over. Most people have never actually read the Bible cover to cover and could probably do with reading what they profess to believe. I'm just as guilty as anyone else; I've read whole books from the Bible, but never the whole thing straight through.

I'm not calling you out, just really curious. Why do you go to church, if you don't believe in Christ? Are you going for your wife? Don't you feel weird or like a hypocrite? I have never been to a service of another faith, but I have been to services of different denominations and even that usually feels weird to me.

Why do I go? That's a good question. I have a few reasons. First, I probably wouldn't go at all if it wasn't that my wife goes. It is her denomination, and I never would have even looked if it weren't for her. Though I feel no obligation to go "for her". Second, the church offers an interesting multicultural service. Two years ago they merged a black and a white church, and both sides brought traditions, and it has been a bit of a struggle to find a common ground that everyone is comfortable with, but it is being done. Third, I find the sermons to be thought provoking and knowledgeable. There's a good mix of lessons from the Bible and current events, and how these things play out. It is good mental stimulation on a Sunday morning. Finally, I also enjoy the music.

Coming from a Catholic upbringing, at first it felt weird, but I see a lot of common things as well as a lot of differences. I've definitely learned something from going to a foreign service.

Also, I don't deceive anybody anyone who has talked to me knows my views, But I don't try to convert anybody or anything like that.