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The Tradition of ....
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GGniner Offline
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Post: #1
The Tradition of ....
Ron Paul Ron Paul Ron Paul Ron Paul Ron Paul Ron Paul Ron Paul Ron Paul Ron Paul Ron PaulRon PaulRon PaulRon PaulRon PaulRon PaulRon PaulRon PaulRon PaulRon PaulRon Paul Ron Paul Ron Paul Ron Paul Ron PaulRon PaulRon PaulRon PaulRon PaulRon PaulRon PaulRon Paul Ron PaulRon Paul Ron Paul Ron Paul

sorry, had to participate in the google bomb Cult just once.

The tradition of Ron Paul: defeated in the Cold War, it is back in this current war.



as for the article, its pretty good by Mr. Goldberg. Now if somone respectable, not spreading War Propaganda and lies would take the position instead of the Cult hero.....well on second thought?

gets into the ideology behind the isolationist, how it was defeated in WW2/cold war and now back.

Quote:The Buckleyite position came to define mainstream American conservatism (and much of libertarianism) until the fall of the Berlin Wall. But a few rightist intellectuals dissented. The most famous was Murray Rothbard, a brilliant anarchist libertarian who saw in the Cold War a sweeping con job. The "blight of anti-Communism," Rothbard tellingly wrote in the left-wing journal Ramparts, paved the way for a takeover of American conservatism by defenders of Truman's "imperialist aggression." The Cold War was merely a convenient justification for statism, the crushing of dissent, and war lust. Churchill, de Gaulle, and Khrushchev were equally "butchers." Truman was the "butcher of Hiroshima and Nagasaki." NATIONAL REVIEW had a "clerical fascist" tinge, while various hard-Left organs--such as the Committee for a Sane Nuclear Policy--earned Rothbard's support and membership.

-------
Ron Paul is perhaps the most famous heir to the Rothbard tradition. He even has a portrait of Rothbard on his wall (that is, according to Wikipedia; Paul's office declined to grant an interview for this piece). Paul claims to be the standard-bearer of a truer, more authentic conservatism. In debates he spins an odd historical interpretation in which the GOP has always succeeded when championing either withdrawal from foreign conflicts (Korea, Vietnam) or non-interventionism. Most analysts, on the other hand, will tell you the GOP's advocacy of a strong defense has been a strength. Still, Paul claims that withdrawal not only from the U.N. (yippee!) but also from NATO, the WTO, NAFTA, and every "entangling alliance" (read: support for Israel, mutual-defense agreements, etc.) is the truly conservative position.
When the Republican presidential candidates debated in South Carolina, he invoked Robert Taft's opposition to NATO. Left out of Paul's tale: Taft supported the Truman Doctrine and the Marshall Plan, promised "100 percent support for the Chinese National government on Formosa," advocated "occasional extensions ... into Europe, Asia, and Africa," and favored keeping six divisions in Europe, at least until the Europeans could defend themselves.

In the 1980s, as Reagan supported rollback, Paul favored roll-up. He wanted the U.S. to leave NATO and abandon Japan. On Grenada he was more nuanced, but he aimed his fire at Reagan's decision not to seek a declaration of war from Congress (a frequent safe harbor from which Paul criticizes nearly every military engagement). In the foreword to A Foreign Policy of Freedom, a collection of Paul's foreign-policy floor speeches, Llewellyn H. Rockwell Jr. calls the Cold War and the War on Terror all part of the same "farce"; both were ruses to justify large government.

--------

There are other problems with Paulism. First, the case that intervention abroad naturally leads to the curtailment of liberty at home is less ironclad than even most conservatives, never mind libertarians, might think. Manchester liberalism arose in the British Empire. The Corn Laws were repealed in 1846. Exactly 100 years later, the National Health Service was born not from empire but from its ashes. In America, women got the vote in the aftermath of World War I, and the Army was integrated by the "butcher of Hiroshima and Nagasaki." The Civil Rights Acts were passed during Vietnam. Ronald Reagan liberalized the economy while increasing spending on defense, and Bill Clinton reinvigorated government with the proceeds from the alleged "peace dividend." Oh, and for the record: Friedrich Hayek and Ludwig von Mises--who reportedly share space with Rothbard on Paul's wall--were subjects of the Hapsburgs.

I noticed Lew Rockwell, generally a hack, even linked this article.

I'd never heard of Rothbard before, so I found the article enjoyable. Good to know who the thinkers are behind the loud mouths on the side of the road with homemade signs and internet spammers.... not to mention those disgracing the founders who risked their Lives in the real Boston Tea Party, so idiots in present day who think they live in 'police state' could dump some Lipton Tea bags in harbor and also create their 'Mothership' finally, full of hotair(the Ron Paul blimp) and fly it around the country.

God Bless America.
(This post was last modified: 12-17-2007 09:25 PM by GGniner.)
12-17-2007 09:11 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #2
RE: The Tradition of ....
GGniner Wrote:Ron Paul Ron Paul Ron Paul Ron Paul Ron Paul Ron Paul Ron Paul Ron Paul Ron Paul Ron PaulRon PaulRon PaulRon PaulRon PaulRon PaulRon PaulRon PaulRon PaulRon PaulRon Paul Ron Paul Ron Paul Ron Paul Ron PaulRon PaulRon PaulRon PaulRon PaulRon PaulRon PaulRon Paul Ron PaulRon Paul Ron Paul Ron Paul

sorry, had to participate in the google bomb Cult just once.

The tradition of Ron Paul: defeated in the Cold War, it is back in this current war.



as for the article, its pretty good by Mr. Goldberg. Now if somone respectable, not spreading War Propaganda and lies would take the position instead of the Cult hero.....well on second thought?

gets into the ideology behind the isolationist, how it was defeated in WW2/cold war and now back.

Quote:The Buckleyite position came to define mainstream American conservatism (and much of libertarianism) until the fall of the Berlin Wall. But a few rightist intellectuals dissented. The most famous was Murray Rothbard, a brilliant anarchist libertarian who saw in the Cold War a sweeping con job. The "blight of anti-Communism," Rothbard tellingly wrote in the left-wing journal Ramparts, paved the way for a takeover of American conservatism by defenders of Truman's "imperialist aggression." The Cold War was merely a convenient justification for statism, the crushing of dissent, and war lust. Churchill, de Gaulle, and Khrushchev were equally "butchers." Truman was the "butcher of Hiroshima and Nagasaki." NATIONAL REVIEW had a "clerical fascist" tinge, while various hard-Left organs--such as the Committee for a Sane Nuclear Policy--earned Rothbard's support and membership.

-------

When the Republican presidential candidates debated in South Carolina, he invoked Robert Taft's opposition to NATO. Left out of Paul's tale: Taft supported the Truman Doctrine and the Marshall Plan, promised "100 percent support for the Chinese National government on Formosa," advocated "occasional extensions ... into Europe, Asia, and Africa," and favored keeping six divisions in Europe, at least until the Europeans could defend themselves.

In the 1980s, as Reagan supported rollback, Paul favored roll-up. He wanted the U.S. to leave NATO and abandon Japan. On Grenada he was more nuanced, but he aimed his fire at Reagan's decision not to seek a declaration of war from Congress (a frequent safe harbor from which Paul criticizes nearly every military engagement). In the foreword to A Foreign Policy of Freedom, a collection of Paul's foreign-policy floor speeches, Llewellyn H. Rockwell Jr. calls the Cold War and the War on Terror all part of the same "farce"; both were ruses to justify large government.

--------

There are other problems with Paulism. First, the case that intervention abroad naturally leads to the curtailment of liberty at home is less ironclad than even most conservatives, never mind libertarians, might think. Manchester liberalism arose in the British Empire. The Corn Laws were repealed in 1846. Exactly 100 years later, the National Health Service was born not from empire but from its ashes. In America, women got the vote in the aftermath of World War I, and the Army was integrated by the "butcher of Hiroshima and Nagasaki." The Civil Rights Acts were passed during Vietnam. Ronald Reagan liberalized the economy while increasing spending on defense, and Bill Clinton reinvigorated government with the proceeds from the alleged "peace dividend." Oh, and for the record: Friedrich Hayek and Ludwig von Mises--who reportedly share space with Rothbard on Paul's wall--were subjects of the Hapsburgs.

I noticed Lew Rockwell, generally a hack, even linked this article.

I'd never heard of Rothbard before, so I found the article enjoyable. Good to know who the thinkers are behind the loud mouths on the side of the road with homemade signs and internet spammers.... not to mention those disgracing the founders who risked their Lives in the real Boston Tea Party, so idiots in present day who think they live in 'police state' could dump some Lipton Tea bags in harbor and also create their 'Mothership' finally, full of hotair(the Ron Paul blimp) and fly it around the country.

God Bless America.

You are very good GG, as usual ...But none of this means anything to the supporters of Ron Paul...These people believe that our nation needs some major policy changes....and there is plenty of evidence to support that assertion. They see nothing that would make them think that the current political establishment has the guts or integrity to make the changes that they deem necessary...Thus the support for Ron Paul even though many of them dont agree with every issue he supports...ie..abortion and immigration.

I find it interesting that in almost every post by you that you do a great job of using others views as the basis for your arguments and opinions...and rarely offer any input or solutions to any problems...I guess you feel that everything in our country is super and we should continue the current path of policies set forth by our current administration.

If you are happy with the following....then...God Bless You.

US monetary policy
public schools
border security
700+ military bases worldwide in over 130 nations and the 1 trillion dollars spent to maintain them.
US welfare state
use of the military without declaration of war or impending threat
unbalanced US budgets
unchecked growth of government intrusiveness..ie..DHS and TSA
rampant use of unnessary force by police
use of torture by our military during interrogations
never ending extention progressive taxation

If not...Then I have no idea who you find in the current mainstream of politics that would pledge to tackle even 1/3 of this list or risk the political capital to do so.
12-17-2007 10:44 PM
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Post: #3
RE: The Tradition of ....
Fo Shizzle Wrote:If you are happy with the following, then God bless you

US monetary policy

Nope.


Fo Shizzle Wrote:public schools

Nope

Fo Shizzle Wrote:border security

Nope

Fo Shizzle Wrote:700+ military bases worldwide in over 130 nations and the 1 trillion dollars spent to maintain them.

Depends where you're talking about. Some can be closed, obviously, others need to be maintained for national security.

Fo Shizzle Wrote:US welfare state

Nope

Fo Shizzle Wrote:use of the military without declaration of war or impending threat

Yep. One of the executive branch's sole responsibilities is to protect this nation. The President can't wait for a bunch of dumb***, agenda-driven Congessmen/women to argue about the merits. It's not them who's on the firing line when we're attacked.

Fo Shizzle Wrote:unbalanced US budgets

Nope

Fo Shizzle Wrote:unchecked growth of government

Nope

Fo Shizzle Wrote:intrusiveness..ie..DHS and TSA

TSA? That was Daschle's baby. He was a Republican, right? Nope, he was the Democratic Senate Majority Leader and his wife was a f'n airline lobbyist. Gee, wonder how much the airlines saved by passing that cost on the the taxpayer? As for the DHS, some intrusiveness is warranted. We shouldn't need a f'n warrant to spy on terrorists here on a Visa talking to other terrorists overseas. If you think we do, state your reasons. I'm in this business, Fo, you're coming from your own emotionally-driven opinion.

Fo Shizzle Wrote:rampant use of unnessary force by police

Examples? Rodney King? Should have had his ass kicked. Any other examples? Also, when did it become the federal government's responsibility to dictate what states and local areas do? Is that not overstepping the bounds of libertarianism? Um, I think so, Homie.


Fo Shizzle Wrote:use of torture by our military during interrogations

Oh, FukenA. A treaty, such as the Geneva Conventions, is meant to dictate fair warfare between warring states. Last I checked, our enemy isn't abiding by a GDamn thing dictated by the Geneva Conventions...something to which I, as a veteran of the US Military and one who's been deployed to places many wouldn't dare step a foot in, approve. I just LOVED seeing the moron saying, "If we torture our detainees, that would cause them to start torturing ours". WTF? They aren't TORTURING ours....they're f'n beheading them. Waterboarding isn't torture. It's psychological warfare that has been very effective. Oh, you're not seeing results? When's the last time we were attacked? Oh, they're not posting results? Um, it's classified. There is **** "I" can't see and that "I" don't know about, and I "Have" a clearance. It's need to know and sorry, there are some things you, and the American people, don't need to know. It's as it's been since the founding of this country. You don't reveal your tactics. Maybe some of you would like to see it on ESPN. Just don't ***** when you see soldiers killed.

Fo Shizzle Wrote:never ending extention progressive taxation

Is he for the Fair Tax? I was unaware of that.

We ARE at war with an ideology. We have been since the '70s. Until people like Paul realize this, we are going to be f'ed. It's amazing to me, and almost laughable, that the main ones opposed are liberals when liberals would be the FIRST ones killed if the Islamic radicals had their way. This conflict isn't going away and it has NOTHING to do with fuking Israel. Think it does? Then why are there conflicts ALL ACROSS THE GDAMN GLOBE that include Muslims? Israel is a damn excuse for liberals not to take a stance against this threat. Am I being an alarmist? Look at the history of violence caused by radical Islam and you tell me.
12-17-2007 11:35 PM
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BeliefBlazer Offline
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Post: #4
RE: The Tradition of ....
RebelKev Wrote:Is he for the Fair Tax? I was unaware of that.

Well he's for no income tax and no IRS. That sounds pretty 'fair' to me.
12-18-2007 02:34 AM
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Post: #5
RE: The Tradition of ....
RebelKev Wrote:
Fo Shizzle Wrote:rampant use of unnessary force by police

Examples? Rodney King? Should have had his ass kicked. Any other examples? Also, when did it become the federal government's responsibility to dictate what states and local areas do? Is that not overstepping the bounds of libertarianism? Um, I think so, Homie.
Just some examples, there's more out there. Obviously these are all situation where a variety of problems compounded to cause the end result, but No knock raids are a dangerous thing for all involved. They make sense for violent offenders, but do we really need to send the swat team in for lesser crimes where no violence is expected?
Charlotte, NC
Virginia
Mississippi
(This post was last modified: 12-18-2007 07:11 AM by Bourgeois_Rage.)
12-18-2007 07:11 AM
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Post: #6
RE: The Tradition of ....
BamaBlazer Wrote:
RebelKev Wrote:Is he for the Fair Tax? I was unaware of that.

Well he's for no income tax and no IRS. That sounds pretty 'fair' to me.

The reason I was asking is the Fair Tax, or HR 25, is the only thing out there specifically promoting the abolition of the IRS and the income tax and replacing both with the National Retail Sales Tax. If he is, great. Paul has a ton of qualities that "I" like. However, without a strong national defense, all that other stuff means dick.
12-18-2007 07:13 AM
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Post: #7
RE: The Tradition of ....
Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:Just some examples, there's more out there. Obviously these are all situation where a variety of problems compounded to cause the end result, but No knock raids are a dangerous thing for all involved. They make sense for violent offenders, but do we really need to send the swat team in for lesser crimes where no violence is expected?
Charlotte, NC
Virginia
Mississippi

Guess it depends on where you're executing the search warrant. There are places in Jackson, Mississippi that I wouldN'T object to the loaning of an Abrams tank.

EDIT: Meant to say would NOT object.
12-18-2007 07:15 AM
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GGniner Offline
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Post: #8
RE: The Tradition of ....
Quote:US monetary policy
Not perfect, but the last thing we need is to take Monetary Policy out of the hands of appointees and into the hands of Politicians and thus the political realm, its already politicized enough. Its an imperfect world, this issue is so complicated and a majority of voters are so ignorant of basic economics much less monetary policy. The system we have of a PRIVATE central banks, with public appointees to oversee is about as good as we are going to get. We just need more greenspans and less Volker’s overseeing. More Adam Smith/Milton Friedman fundamentals and less Keynes, IMO. Not perfect, but as close to as good as you can expect in an imperfect/fallen world.
And when you look at our track record of unprecedented Economic Growth(to 1000’s of years of Human history), over the past century its kinda hard to think we need change. We are night and day better off today than we were 50 years ago much less dating back to 1913. In the 1800’s we had Depressions regularly, today the Fed has managed to keep us in just a recession and avoid full blown depressions. With the exception of the Great depression, which I think had more to do with the Hawley Tarrif’s the Congress passed in an attempt to Isolate ourselves Economically, like we were Foreign Policy wise, at the time.

Quote:public schools
Hate them, but in the real world they aren’t going anywhere. Too many broken homes and irrationality. If you are voting for Paul because you think he’ll get rid of the Dept. of Education and/or Public Schools, he’s misleading you. POTUS isn’t a dictator, all he will do is piss off the Teachers Unions and get creamed in the press and get national opinion turned against him, even trying to do just have the policy of School Vouchers will be rewarded like this. That’s the Political realities of it, a hard line on this and many of these other issues would ultimately lead to a quick impeachment. It’s not politically feasible, possibly in baby steps but I think we need cultural change just as much.

Quote:border security
RP doesn’t have a perfect record on this, liberal in some cases. But definitely an area that needs improvement. But again the politics of it aren’t good, if you piss off too many Hispanics as the press labels you bigoted and/or a “fascist” over the issue, which the NYT’s will and has done.
Quote:700+ military bases worldwide in over 130 nations and the 1 trillion dollars spent to maintain them.
I’m for withdrawing from some of them, Germany for example. However they don’t want us to and that gets into another fine line of geo-politics. We are in effect subsidizing their welfare states in some cases by our present, and they like that. They way they tax and spend on Govt. and don’t have to worry about little things like National Security. Although with Germany’s track record it may not be such a bad idea to have them militarily weak, especially as they are being Islamified.
Quote:US welfare state
don’t like what we do have, but keep in mind we did achieve Welfare Reform in the 90’s. As long as you have out of wedlock births, dead-beat dads, etc., there is unfortunately going to be some need for it.

Quote:use of the military without declaration of war or impending threat
we did declare war effectively, but that is another discussion. As is the nature of the threat,

Quote:unbalanced US budgets
Not good, but not end of the world when analyzed as % of GDP and our economic Growth. This is something RP is not good on with all his $400 Million worth of Pork request this year alone, not to mention many other “Aye” votes related to others Pork amendments. He just pay’s lip service for the budget hawks.
Quote:
If not...Then I have no idea who you find in the current mainstream of politics that would pledge to tackle even 1/3 of this list or risk the political capital to do so.

you have to have the political capital first, as would the Congress and Senate. They don’t, look at what the AARP did when they tried to privatize Social Security, or a portion of it, which was reasonable. And that was with a Repub. Congress and senate, it was Dead on Arrival.

It’s easy to be idealistic and spout out talking points when you are just a congressman and 1/500th of a vote. Totally different when you are 1/1, ultimately playing a PR game and don’t have absolute power. Pragmatism is your friend, and things are going historically pretty well, regardless of all the fear mongering about it by those on the left and Ron Paul fringe.
12-18-2007 11:19 AM
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GGniner Offline
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Post: #9
RE: The Tradition of ....
to add to the "Public Schools" point.

the Teachers Unions and Dept. of Education have got away from many things wrongly, like not teaching Logic and 'how to think' over 'what to think'. And it's had its consquences....

However, one big thing they quit teaching entirely is Military History, an important subject. Something very important for a democratic-Republic and the effects of this are very evident in Ron Paul and his supporters. the problem is I don't think the modern Libertarians would do anything to get that type of curriculm back in the schools. and that is something, along with killing PC-ism in the school I think is critical

I also think, if you support Small Goverment/Limited Govt. idealism as I do while being pragmatic about it, the last person you want to become the face of that movement is a guy like Ron Paul. The media would love nothing more than a guy like that with his following and background to be the face of it, so they could label us all 'neo-nazi's, holocaust deniers, conspiracy nuts, etc.', which is exactly what will happen IF, for purpose of debate, he got the R nomination.

As long as he's a Sideshow Act and anti-war they'll give him a pass.

Quote:"I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy." - John Adams
(This post was last modified: 12-18-2007 11:47 AM by GGniner.)
12-18-2007 11:44 AM
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Post: #10
RE: The Tradition of ....
I don't remember military history.
12-18-2007 11:47 AM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #11
RE: The Tradition of ....
RebelKev Wrote:
Fo Shizzle Wrote:If you are happy with the following, then God bless you

US monetary policy

Nope.


Fo Shizzle Wrote:public schools

Nope

Fo Shizzle Wrote:border security

Nope

Fo Shizzle Wrote:700+ military bases worldwide in over 130 nations and the 1 trillion dollars spent to maintain them.

Depends where you're talking about. Some can be closed, obviously, others need to be maintained for national security.

Fo Shizzle Wrote:US welfare state

Nope

Fo Shizzle Wrote:use of the military without declaration of war or impending threat

Yep. One of the executive branch's sole responsibilities is to protect this nation. The President can't wait for a bunch of dumb***, agenda-driven Congessmen/women to argue about the merits. It's not them who's on the firing line when we're attacked.

Fo Shizzle Wrote:unbalanced US budgets

Nope

Fo Shizzle Wrote:unchecked growth of government

Nope

Fo Shizzle Wrote:intrusiveness..ie..DHS and TSA

TSA? That was Daschle's baby. He was a Republican, right? Nope, he was the Democratic Senate Majority Leader and his wife was a f'n airline lobbyist. Gee, wonder how much the airlines saved by passing that cost on the the taxpayer? As for the DHS, some intrusiveness is warranted. We shouldn't need a f'n warrant to spy on terrorists here on a Visa talking to other terrorists overseas. If you think we do, state your reasons. I'm in this business, Fo, you're coming from your own emotionally-driven opinion.

Fo Shizzle Wrote:rampant use of unnessary force by police

Examples? Rodney King? Should have had his ass kicked. Any other examples? Also, when did it become the federal government's responsibility to dictate what states and local areas do? Is that not overstepping the bounds of libertarianism? Um, I think so, Homie.


Fo Shizzle Wrote:use of torture by our military during interrogations

Oh, FukenA. A treaty, such as the Geneva Conventions, is meant to dictate fair warfare between warring states. Last I checked, our enemy isn't abiding by a GDamn thing dictated by the Geneva Conventions...something to which I, as a veteran of the US Military and one who's been deployed to places many wouldn't dare step a foot in, approve. I just LOVED seeing the moron saying, "If we torture our detainees, that would cause them to start torturing ours". WTF? They aren't TORTURING ours....they're f'n beheading them. Waterboarding isn't torture. It's psychological warfare that has been very effective. Oh, you're not seeing results? When's the last time we were attacked? Oh, they're not posting results? Um, it's classified. There is **** "I" can't see and that "I" don't know about, and I "Have" a clearance. It's need to know and sorry, there are some things you, and the American people, don't need to know. It's as it's been since the founding of this country. You don't reveal your tactics. Maybe some of you would like to see it on ESPN. Just don't ***** when you see soldiers killed.

Fo Shizzle Wrote:never ending extention progressive taxation

Is he for the Fair Tax? I was unaware of that.

We ARE at war with an ideology. We have been since the '70s. Until people like Paul realize this, we are going to be f'ed. It's amazing to me, and almost laughable, that the main ones opposed are liberals when liberals would be the FIRST ones killed if the Islamic radicals had their way. This conflict isn't going away and it has NOTHING to do with fuking Israel. Think it does? Then why are there conflicts ALL ACROSS THE GDAMN GLOBE that include Muslims? Israel is a damn excuse for liberals not to take a stance against this threat. Am I being an alarmist? Look at the history of violence caused by radical Islam and you tell me.
Whats laughable is that we(and I inlude myself) got suckered into believing this silly war of ideology...Ive changed my opinion and firmly believe that it is our constant meddling in the middle east that has caused this mess...Get the hell out of there and dare any of them to screw with us again...If they do...then declare war and then blow the living hell out of them..civilians included if they get in the way...Putting soldiers on the ground to fight a "war of ideology" is not only unconstitional is just plain stupid.
12-18-2007 01:24 PM
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GGniner Offline
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Post: #12
RE: The Tradition of ....
heh, Jonah Goldberg just made a post over at the Corner in response to Professor Bainbridge's post on the 'case against ron paul'

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q...ZiYzAwMTM=

He posted a portion of the above article which he wrote, the exact same portion that I posted last night, save the last paragraph. kinda ironic, but the important part re: Foreign Policy. The whole thing is good though.
(This post was last modified: 12-18-2007 01:29 PM by GGniner.)
12-18-2007 01:26 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #13
RE: The Tradition of ....
BamaBlazer Wrote:
RebelKev Wrote:Is he for the Fair Tax? I was unaware of that.

Well he's for no income tax and no IRS. That sounds pretty 'fair' to me.
Thank you.04-bow
12-18-2007 01:26 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #14
RE: The Tradition of ....
GGniner Wrote:to add to the "Public Schools" point.

the Teachers Unions and Dept. of Education have got away from many things wrongly, like not teaching Logic and 'how to think' over 'what to think'. And it's had its consquences....

However, one big thing they quit teaching entirely is Military History, an important subject. Something very important for a democratic-Republic and the effects of this are very evident in Ron Paul and his supporters. the problem is I don't think the modern Libertarians would do anything to get that type of curriculm back in the schools. and that is something, along with killing PC-ism in the school I think is critical

I also think, if you support Small Goverment/Limited Govt. idealism as I do while being pragmatic about it, the last person you want to become the face of that movement is a guy like Ron Paul. The media would love nothing more than a guy like that with his following and background to be the face of it, so they could label us all 'neo-nazi's, holocaust deniers, conspiracy nuts, etc.', which is exactly what will happen IF, for purpose of debate, he got the R nomination.

As long as he's a Sideshow Act and anti-war they'll give him a pass.

Quote:"I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy." - John Adams
Ive been to a couple of RP rallies and I have not seen or spoken to a single supporter who fits your above assertion....I think you make way to much of this....and Im sure there are no wacky republicans with strange ideas running around.
(This post was last modified: 12-18-2007 01:35 PM by Fo Shizzle.)
12-18-2007 01:31 PM
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Post: #15
RE: The Tradition of ....
No income tax, no estate tax, I guess we just won't have any government at all. No police, no laws, no rules, everyone can just live together in one nice utopian society. And the tooth fairy comes every afternoon to give us our milk and cookies.
12-18-2007 01:50 PM
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Post: #16
RE: The Tradition of ....
EastStang Wrote:No income tax, no estate tax, I guess we just won't have any government at all. No police, no laws, no rules, everyone can just live together in one nice utopian society. And the tooth fairy comes every afternoon to give us our milk and cookies.

Aside from the no income tax and no estate tax, name one person who's suggested as such.
12-18-2007 01:52 PM
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georgia_tech_swagger Offline
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Post: #17
RE: The Tradition of ....
Elimination of the Income Tax will return gov't income from taxes to the same level it was in 2000.
12-18-2007 02:34 PM
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Post: #18
RE: The Tradition of ....
Fo Shizzle Wrote:Ive been to a couple of RP rallies and I have not seen or spoken to a single supporter who fits your above assertion....I think you make way to much of this....and Im sure there are no wacky republicans with strange ideas running around.
well, there was one on this site a few months back....

Its an odd coalition, but Paul has had his columns run in Holocaust denying publications for years, receives campaign contributions from Neo-nazi's like Stormfront founder Don Black and 9/11 Troofers and all out conspiratorialist not to mention anti-semite's like Alex Jones(who runs prisonplanet.com and Infowars, propaganda sites). When called on these donations and links he ignores them and refuses comment, serious politicians would reject Holocaust deniers immediately, Paul lets them run his columns and goes on their radio shows. He calls Israel the "worst lobby of the evil sort" in Washington and is many times the only congressman along with Kucinich that votes against them and the interest of Liberty/Free Societies(see Israel) over Tyrany and terrorist(see Hizzbollah for one example)....needless to say he has many supporters from the 9/11 troofers, to holocaust deniers and neo-nazi's, to Ron Paul meetups by KKK members in places like Ohio.

then take the endorsement on Stormfront's white supremacist Radio show in October:
Quote:"Whatever organization you belong to, remember first and foremost that you're a white nationalist, then put aside your differences with one another and work together. Work together to strive to get someone in the Oval Office who agrees with much of what we want for our future. Look at the man, look at the issues, look at our future. Vote for Ron Paul, 2008."

There are even Communist in the CPUSA that support Ron Paul, think about that, Communist that support the supposed Libertarian. Its all centered around his Foreign Policy ideas much the same as the holocaust deniers.

For more, just take a look at this: The Ron Paul campaign and its neo-nazi supporters

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Now, I think there is a good chance that Paul himself at best has some leanings toward real anti-semitism, and I want even mention worst case scenario. However, what I'm getting at and want to point out is to just imagine all that dirt and alot more related to this stuff and what the media would do with it to expose him...the Political reality of it all. It would be so ugly, and the last thing limited govt. proponents need is it associated with them. Its the surest way to landslide defeat and full blown Socialism in the US.

Paul could've and should have stated his view on these groups and what they stand for and made it clear he isn't an anti-semite and rejects their support AND MONEY. Like any sane politician would, instead he refused. However, if by miracle he got the R nomination, the media would call him on it and it would get ugly.
(This post was last modified: 12-18-2007 04:42 PM by GGniner.)
12-18-2007 03:44 PM
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GGniner Offline
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Post: #19
RE: The Tradition of ....
to help make my point, George Allen couldn't even get away with saying "Macacca" last year in Virginia. He'd probably be the Repub. nominee had he kept his mouth shut and held on to his Senate seat.

there are certain things in American politics you can have no connection with, anything racial or bigoted is one of them. granted there is a double standard and the left get away with racist policies like affirmitive action. and have a former Klansman as their elder statesman in the Senate in sheets Byrd....but then they control much of the media and dominate the national dialogue.

don't forget Trent Lott's joke either.
(This post was last modified: 12-18-2007 04:39 PM by GGniner.)
12-18-2007 04:07 PM
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EastStang Offline
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Post: #20
RE: The Tradition of ....
GGniner Wrote:to help make my point, George Allen couldn't even get away with saying "Macacca" last year in Virginia. He'd probably be the Repub. nominee had he kept his mouth shut and held on to his Senate seat.
He'd have been better off, if he'd gone with his initial reaction and called the guy an A..H....
12-18-2007 04:31 PM
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