Any chance the OVC would consider a football-playing Kennesaw State if Jacksonville State doesn't leave the conference? KSU could come in with Western Illinois as an expansion partner::

South - Jacksonville State, Kennesaw State, TN-Martin, TN Tech, Austin Peay State, TN State
North - Murray State, Morehead State, Eastern Kentucky, Eastern Illinois, SE MO State, Western Illinois

Even Clarksville, TN is less than 4 1/2 hours from Kennesaw, GA. KSU's longest road trip would actually be Western Illinois (12 hours) assuming they join the OVC.

Isn't WIU pretty established in their current conference? Have you heard that they are looking to bolt?

I think WIU is fine with the Gateway, it's the Summit that the WIU may be leaving. Unless if WIU can get in the Horizon or Missouri Valley (both of which would be unlikely), or some other conference that does not sponsor football they'll have to move the football team out of the Gateway.

It may hinge on whether North Dakota and South Dakota join the Summit, which would give the Summit enough schools for football (North Dakota, North Dakota State, South Dakota, South Dakota State, Western Illinois, and Southern Utah).

Western Illinois is a founding member of the Summit League and has been there since 1982. The Leathernecks are also founding members of the Gateway Football Conference and have been there for more than two decades as well. I have seen no indication that they are looking to leave either league.

The Gateway has never had a problem with Western Illinois (or Youngstown State) being football-only schools. North Dakota State and South Dakota State are set to become football-only members next year. That brings Gateway membership to 9 schools, which is quite optimal for football scheduling.

No one in the Summit League is in a hurry to add North Dakota and South Dakota. Those two schools tried to prevent North Dakota State and South Dakota State from moving up, initially, and there is a lot of bad blood there. With the Summit League going to 10 schools next year, they are fine for now.

It is the Atlantic Sun Conference which has given Kennesaw State an immediate home since they moved up to Division I. Their best course is to repay that faith by helping stabilize the league that helped them rather than looking at other places before they have even gotten their feet wet in this division.

Unlike the two Dakota newbies, who will probably be twisting in the independent wind for a few years, Kennesaw State has a home and would be wise to show their appreciation for that fact. Do you actually comment on games or anything else on these boards, Changeradio, or just rearrange conferences?

Krocker Krapp Wrote:The AD at Kennesaw State has a right to dream. Fine. But to go name-dropping a league that he probably has never even talked to as a way to raise money and drum up interest in his football plans is offensive. Why not mention the ACC or SEC? At least those leagues have teams in your area. The Big East is not some starter league for everyone with big wishes. It has consistently been one of the top basketball leagues in the nation for the last three decades and is clearly one of the six best football leagues in the nation. People do not just get into the Big East by saying they are interested.

As for the University of South Florida, they just started football 10 years ago, but the Bulls have been in Division I much longer than that. South Florida was a charter member of Conference USA as well. They got into the Big East through a combination of unfortunate circumstances and a leap of faith. In 2003, after politics stalled the greed-driven expansion of the ACC at 11 teams, the Big East looked set with just Cincinnati and Louisville joining the football side. Boston College, however, got down on their knees behind the ACC outhouse begging to be #12 and, thus, stabbed the Big East in our backs.

This was literally the last minute as the Big East's new 16-team line-up was set to be formalized just three weeks later. A replacement team was needed and needed fast. The Big East was too proud to ask back Temple, a football-only member which had been kicked out for numerous issues, so they had to look in a new direction. The AD at Louisville, Tom Jurich, helped sell the Big East hierarchy on South Florida because he felt they had the ability to become something special. So the Big East took a serious gamble and it is paying off. Do not, however, expect this kind of scenario to be repeated.

Krocker, I'm curious: If the ACC taking schools from the Big East is considered "greed-driven," what was it when the Big East took schools from C-USA? Or when C-USA took schools from the MAC and WAC, for that matter? When the Big East took USF, Cincinnati, and Louisville, the league was thinking only of its own well-being. It was the same with C-USA and the ACC during the recent expansion. Don't kid yourself; the Big East is not above being greedy, and neither is any other Division 1 league.

UCFGoldenKnights#1 Wrote:Krocker, I'm curious: If the ACC taking schools from the Big East is considered "greed-driven," what was it when the Big East took schools from C-USA? Or when C-USA took schools from the MAC and WAC, for that matter? When the Big East took USF, Cincinnati, and Louisville, the league was thinking only of its own well-being. It was the same with C-USA and the ACC during the recent expansion. Don't kid yourself; the Big East is not above being greedy, and neither is any other Division 1 league.

Are you trying to revise history? Everyone knows what the ACC did was greed-driven and most people would have preferred the status quo. The ACC was trying to put the Big East out of business. You should know this very well. It happened four years ago.

What the Big East did was a case of survival. The NCAA mandates that a Division I-FBS conference needs eight schools. Louisville and Cincinnati had long wanted to join the Big East anyway and were happy to leave CUSA. The two Commissioners cooperated.

It was also an opportunity for CUSA to get rid of DePaul, Marquette, Charlotte, and St. Louis in order to reinvent itself as a geographically-sensible 12-team all-sports league. The Big East even helped get the latter two schools into the A-10 as a favor to CUSA.

Had the ACC not done what they did then there would have been no chain reaction. Everyone would still be in place and UCF would now be in the MAC playing against Ohio and Michigan schools all the time. There is a stark difference between greed and survival.

Krocker Krapp Wrote:

UCFGoldenKnights#1 Wrote:Krocker, I'm curious: If the ACC taking schools from the Big East is considered "greed-driven," what was it when the Big East took schools from C-USA? Or when C-USA took schools from the MAC and WAC, for that matter? When the Big East took USF, Cincinnati, and Louisville, the league was thinking only of its own well-being. It was the same with C-USA and the ACC during the recent expansion. Don't kid yourself; the Big East is not above being greedy, and neither is any other Division 1 league.

Are you trying to revise history? Everyone knows what the ACC did was greed-driven and most people would have preferred the status quo. The ACC was trying to put the Big East out of business. You should know this very well. It happened four years ago.

What the Big East did was a case of survival. The NCAA mandates that a Division I-FBS conference needs eight schools. Louisville and Cincinnati had long wanted to join the Big East anyway and were happy to leave CUSA. The two Commissioners cooperated.

It was also an opportunity for CUSA to get rid of DePaul, Marquette, Charlotte, and St. Louis in order to reinvent itself as a geographically-sensible 12-team all-sports league. The Big East even helped get the latter two schools into the A-10 as a favor to CUSA.

All of this doesn't change the fact that what the Big East did left C-USA in a weakened position just like the ACC left the Big East in a weakened position. Yeah, you can say the C-USA commissioner cooperated, but it's not like he was left with much of a choice. Are you trying to tell me the Big East gave a rat's behind about C-USA? I highly doubt that. And, to be honest, I don't think C-USA really cares about any league other than C-USA. Every league looks out for itself . . . that's just how it is.

Quote:Had the ACC not done what they did then there would have been no chain reaction. Everyone would still be in place and UCF would now be in the MAC playing against Ohio and Michigan schools all the time. There is a stark difference between greed and survival.

I am aware of how UCF benefited from what the ACC did, and that kind of relates to my point. Ultimately, these leagues are looking out for themselves, not for each other as you seem to be saying.

Obviously every league is looking out for themselves. But that does not change the fact that the ACC started it out of greed. That is the notion that you seem to be disagreeing with me about.

If the ACC had not gone after Miami, BC, and Syracuse, the Big East would have never done anything at all to CUSA. After the ACC initiated their dastardly deed, it became a matter of survival.

In addition, the ACC and CUSA are the only FBS leagues that seem to be doing worse after the changes, for some reason. The Big East, MAC, Sun Belt, and WAC are better. The MWC is so-so.

On down the line, the Atlantic Sun has even benefitted, now it has more stability as schools who wanted to be FBS and FCS have moved on. The Kennesaw State AD should speak more coyly.

We need to get the money approved. GSU just approved an $85/semester ath fee increase and a $35/sem fine arts fee increase. Kennesaw will fall behind in the state's university system if they do not. It's that simple.

Waples (AD) will do what it takes to get funding. It's not going to end with the people we have there.

Krocker Krapp Wrote:Obviously every league is looking out for themselves. But that does not change the fact that the ACC started it out of greed. That is the notion that you seem to be disagreeing with me about.

If the ACC had not gone after Miami, BC, and Syracuse, the Big East would have never done anything at all to CUSA. After the ACC initiated their dastardly deed, it became a matter of survival.

In addition, the ACC and CUSA are the only FBS leagues that seem to be doing worse after the changes, for some reason. The Big East, MAC, Sun Belt, and WAC are better. The MWC is so-so.

On down the line, the Atlantic Sun has even benefitted, now it has more stability as schools who wanted to be FBS and FCS have moved on. The Kennesaw State AD should speak more coyly.

All right, I'll say this and this'll be it because I feel like we're hijacking this thread:

Your position, as I understand it, is that the Big East acted only out of survival and not greed. I say that the Big East acted out of survival AND greed. You seem to be saying that the ACC is the only one who was greedy when, in fact, the Big East is benefiting from taking former C-USA members. Again, I'm not saying C-USA is above being greedy because, let's face it, they did take UCF and Marshall from the MAC as well as Tulsa, SMU, Rice, and UTEP from the WAC. Maybe we're having a difference in opinion as to what "greed" means . . . I don't know.

Okay, it's clear that Kennesaw is looking ahead to joining Division 1-A someday (I know they're not called "1-A" and "1-AA" anymore, but I hate the new names). What about Georgia State? Do they plan to go no higher than 1-AA, or do they have 1-A aspirations?

Nick M Wrote:We need to get the money approved. GSU just approved an $85/semester ath fee increase and a $35/sem fine arts fee increase. Kennesaw will fall behind in the state's university system if they do not. It's that simple.

Waples (AD) will do what it takes to get funding. It's not going to end with the people we have there.

Can you give an overview of how schools rank in the system, Nick, for those of us who are not from Georgia? Everyone is familiar with the Bulldogs and Yellow Jackets, obviously, but many people may not know the hierarchy after that. My guess, at least athletically, would be that Georgia Southern is next, followed by Georgia State, and then Kennesaw State since these are the only Division I schools down there.

UCFGoldenKnights#1 Wrote:All right, I'll say this and this'll be it because I feel like we're hijacking this thread:

Your position, as I understand it, is that the Big East acted only out of survival and not greed. I say that the Big East acted out of survival AND greed. You seem to be saying that the ACC is the only one who was greedy when, in fact, the Big East is benefiting from taking former C-USA members. Again, I'm not saying C-USA is above being greedy because, let's face it, they did take UCF and Marshall from the MAC as well as Tulsa, SMU, Rice, and UTEP from the WAC. Maybe we're having a difference in opinion as to what "greed" means . . . I don't know.

I will just reiterate that the ACC initiated all of the conference shifting with a corporate raid rivaling anything that even Wall Street could ever dream of doing. The Big East was just trying to survive. You do not have the luxury of being greedy in that situation. Obviously the Big East was not going to add just any school off the street, they wanted good members, but the intent was not to put CUSA out of business.

Krocker Krapp Wrote:Can you give an overview of how schools rank in the system, Nick, for those of us who are not from Georgia?

Absolutely. This is pretty much objective from a guy living in Atlanta but I believe most would agree.

1. UGA 32.5k enrollment *-research institution
2. Tech 19k*
3. Southern 14k (regional institution)
4. State 20k* (not necessarily ahead of KSU)
4. Kennesaw 20k
6. West Georgia 10k
7. Mercer 5k
8. GCSU 6k

That list was harder to compile than I thought and now I think I would rank southern below state and kennesaw. They just have a football team with a captive audience and some recent success in the FCS (D-IAA)

Nick M Wrote:

Krocker Krapp Wrote:Can you give an overview of how schools rank in the system, Nick, for those of us who are not from Georgia?

Absolutely. This is pretty much objective from a guy living in Atlanta but I believe most would agree.

1. UGA 32.5k enrollment *-research institution
2. Tech 19k*
3. Southern 14k (regional institution)
4. State 20k* (not necessarily ahead of KSU)
4. Kennesaw 20k
6. West Georgia 10k
7. Mercer 5k
8. GCSU 6k

The University System of Georgia:

Research Universities

University of Georgia
Georgia Tech
Georgia State University

Regional Universities
Georgia Southern University
Valdosta State

State Universities
Kennesaw State
University of West Georgia
Southern PolyTech
Savannah State
etc.


For more information visit:
http://www.usg.edu/inst/map.phtml

Also GSU's enrollment is more like 25K/28K...not 20K.

UCFGoldenKnights#1 Wrote:Okay, it's clear that Kennesaw is looking ahead to joining Division 1-A someday (I know they're not called "1-A" and "1-AA" anymore, but I hate the new names). What about Georgia State? Do they plan to go no higher than 1-AA, or do they have 1-A aspirations?

It's unclear right now. Unlike Kennesaw, Georgia State actually has a conference to play football in. So while many Georgia State fans would like to go D-1A eventually, its unclear how soon that would happen.

Administrators have bounced around and said things like aspiring to be a "William & Mary" to more recently being aspiring to be like "South Florida" and "Appalachian State."

Meanwhile there are rumors that one day the Colonial as a conference may want to move up to D-1A.

Sure enough, it's not formatted correctly on Wikipedia with total enrollment... 27,000 ish. I think it's too early to tell where this is going to shake out. In 09 or '10 when there are actually teams on the field is when prospecting how far our respective programs will go. Getting in the right conference for KSU is the only question to answer before fielding a team. Going the independent route is going to be hard.

Congrats on getting more money than KSU is asking initially out of their students from everything I've read. KSU is still a steal of an education. Another grand/yr could be added and still come out cheaper than other in-state universities. That'd be something, wouldn't it? lol... 500/semester fee increase... haha. Then I'd be glad I got out when I did. I'd be down for $200 about tops though. If you can't fund something with $200 increase, you need to cut some costs.

I know this may not make sense because of the number of schools in the conference, but wouldn't the Southern Conference's footprint somewhat fit what KSU would be looking for?

I expect a total shift/realignment of conferences in the not too distant future. Some schools going to D2, others moving from D2 to D1-AA etc.

Just my opinion, now back in the bunker.

Nick M Wrote:Sure enough, it's not formatted correctly on Wikipedia with total enrollment... 27,000 ish. I think it's too early to tell where this is going to shake out. In 09 or '10 when there are actually teams on the field is when prospecting how far our respective programs will go. Getting in the right conference for KSU is the only question to answer before fielding a team. Going the independent route is going to be hard.

Congrats on getting more money than KSU is asking initially out of their students from everything I've read. KSU is still a steal of an education. Another grand/yr could be added and still come out cheaper than other in-state universities. That'd be something, wouldn't it? lol... 500/semester fee increase... haha. Then I'd be glad I got out when I did. I'd be down for $200 about tops though. If you can't fund something with $200 increase, you need to cut some costs.

BucDoctor Wrote:I know this may not make sense because of the number of schools in the conference, but wouldn't the Southern Conference's footprint somewhat fit what KSU would be looking for?

That would piss off Georgia Southern fans beyond belief!

They are already antagonized by the fact that both GSU and KSU are studying/starting programs.

At this point, I just hope football at KSU gets past the students. There's already some quacks saying anti-football on the school newspaper's site.
http://www.ksusentinel.com/index.php?opt...4&Itemid=1