But the question still remains, should all religions be treated equally (and I'll add this now) and with respect in this country?

GGniner seems to think that they shouldn't. Clearly, he believes that certain religions are better or more legitimate than others, and he feels that the government should treat them differently and hold them in a higher esteem.

Next time you drink a Samuel Adams beer, remmber this from the first session of the first continental congress and in the official minutes from it.

Quote:Christian men, who had come together for solemn deliberation in the hour of their extremity, to say there was so wide a difference in their religious belief that they could not, as one man, bow the knee in prayer to the Almighty, whose advice and assistance they hoped to obtain. --Sam Adams

after that they've always lead off with prayer...also, John Adams on July 12, 1775, after the Continental Congress issued the four fast-day proclamations:

Quote:We Have appointed a Continental Fast. Millions will be upon their knees at once before the great Creator, imploring His forgiveness and blessing; His smiles on American Councils and arms" - John Adams

this is the foundation of this tradition, and why the very first congress had official chaplains......



also, at beginning of an important document

Quote:We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights

the founders logic, no creator and no rights.

read up on full history of William Blackstone sometime.

Sophandros Wrote:But the question still remains, should all religions be treated equally (and I'll add this now) and with respect in this country?

GGniner seems to think that they shouldn't. Clearly, he believes that certain religions are better or more legitimate than others, and he feels that the government should treat them differently and hold them in a higher esteem.

How many hindus are elected to congress? Should Satanist and Wiccans be treated equally, if you think they should all be lining up and praying before congress then you think Satanist and Wiccans should be right up there and treated equally. Yet you keep sidestepping this.

I've already said a number of times they should never have been booed, I also think this whole charade was ridiculous and a stunt. But you don't have the first clue about the foundation of our country and I'm not about to take the time to document the voluminous examples and facts.

Frankly, I really don't have a problem at all with a Hindu prayer opening a session of Congress. Also would't have a problem with Jewish or Islamic either.........these are all "Great Religions of the World."

Unfortunately, here is my concern, I can see the slipery slope now. Lawsuits, for the above mentioned Wiccans or Satanists or maybe Moonies, etc. so that they get their equal share. It just seems that we in today's society can never do what is common sense. We have to legally wrangle stuff to the extreme degree. In the end, the common sense folks throw up their hands and exclude all of it.

End result - NO prayer at all & god knows our elected officials could use some devine help.

Sophandros Wrote:Have any of you ever heard the term "tyranny of the majority"?

Just because there are no Hindu congressmen, I'm 100% certain that there are congressmen who have some Hindu people among their constituents.

Well, you can now say we disagreed today....

I think that the religion of the member of congress is exactly the point. They are opening with prayer, I would assume, for guidance in decision making. That then would pertain solely to the member, not the constituent.

I totally defend anyone's right to worship however they want, but to have a prayer of a religion that is not represented seems like slap in the face to all those that worship, whoever their god. Although the prayer may be broadcast on C-SPAN, it is obvious that it is intended for the parties in session, which should then not be considered exclusionary.

Sophandros Wrote:In short, GG, in my opinion, all religions should be treated equally in this country.

So, it seems that you're arguing against that point.

Of course he is as are many on this board who think Christianity is the ONLY religion and all the others are false. This is why many on here think that a Christian prayer is the only one that should be allowed. Just like the Constitution says. :rolleyes3:

I should have probably added that I do not support the way the individuals shouting in the background went about disrespecting the Hindu, praying. I think they were more in the wrong than whoever set this "photo-op" up. Although, I do believe that this was a ploy by whoever initiated this "prayer" to get exactly what happened to happen.

If you go back to the thread that talks about the members of congress taking their oaths, I was all in favor of the Muslim member taking his oath on the Koran. I think it makes more sense for someone to take an oath on a holy book in which they believe as they would be more apt to uphold their oath.

I am not against people of other faiths practicing their religion. I am against people stirring crap up for the sole purpose of getting people mad. Who was served by having a Hindu pray? That is the question I would like answered...

fsquid Wrote:What the **** is a Hindu doing in there?

He was invited.

This is just another example of how insanely foolish people can get with religion. The man actually says a very nice prayer. It is unfortunate that some jackasses had to interupt him. They should just keep religion at home anyway. Our government doesn't need more help to be corrupt.

blah Wrote:I think that the religion of the member of congress is exactly the point. They are opening with prayer, I would assume, for guidance in decision making. That then would pertain solely to the member, not the constituent.

it could probably be argued that what they/Reid did amounted to Promotion of Religion by the State, since their are no members of congress that are hindu (i.e. free exercise of).....nobody would ever touch that though.

the problem with this stuff, is making all religions equal. i.e. moral relativism, which is a logical fallacy, lazy and debunks itself.

No religion has a better claim to being more "correct" than any other; OK, except against the Scientologists. These people would do well to learn some humility. They might actually learn something.

just to lighten it up:

ShoreBuc Wrote:Hinduism has been around for 6,000 years and has had one prayer to open our Congress. I think our nation will survive. The reaction of the peanut gallery was disrespectful and a little pathetic IMHO.

Again, I have no problem with a Hindu prayer. My point was an ulterior motive I saw by Reid.

GGniner Wrote:the problem with this stuff, is making all religions equal. i.e. moral relativism, which is a logical fallacy, lazy and debunks itself.

So, you're saying that all religions are NOT equal, then?

So who decides which religion is legit and which is not? You? The voters?

How long have you been in favor of making America into a Christian Theocracy? <--- sarcasm for those who are slow on the uptake

Seriously, though, do you not realize that if one replaced the word "Christian" with "Muslim" in your arguments and viewpoints, you'd sound exactly like the terrorists whom you claim to want eliminated?

ShoreBuc Wrote:Hinduism has been around for 6,000 years and has had one prayer to open our Congress. I think our nation will survive. The reaction of the peanut gallery was disrespectful and a little pathetic IMHO.

As for the 10 Commandments that was like Moses finding a decoder ring in a box of kids cereal compared to the laws that had already been put in stone in civilizations such as Egypt, Greece, Persia etc..
If God was going to hand down just ten laws to Moses with the issues that were affecting Jews at the time I think abolishing slavery and womens rights would of been somwhere on there with
"You shall not covet your neighbour’s house; you shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour".

everybody knows that God gave Moses 15 commandments, however, he broke a tablet and only came down with 10 commandments. i love that movie

Sophandros Wrote:So, you're saying that all religions are NOT equal, then?

Logic would tell us that's the case. All religions can't be equal because all religions can't be true. One religion that teaches that Christ is the only way to live eternally cannot be just as true as one that doesn't.

Quote:So who decides which religion is legit and which is not? You? The voters?

Ultimately God does. And we'll all know one way or the other at some point.

Sophandros Wrote:

GGniner Wrote:the problem with this stuff, is making all religions equal. i.e. moral relativism, which is a logical fallacy, lazy and debunks itself.

So, you're saying that all religions are NOT equal, then?

So who decides which religion is legit and which is not? You? The voters?

How long have you been in favor of making America into a Christian Theocracy? <--- sarcasm for those who are slow on the uptake

Seriously, though, do you not realize that if one replaced the word "Christian" with "Muslim" in your arguments and viewpoints, you'd sound exactly like the terrorists whom you claim to want eliminated?

Did you not read my post? Or are you totally directed at GGNiner at this point? I think I made it pretty clear that I had no problem with someone who is actually in Congress expressing their faith. However, asking someone outside your faith to come and pray is notfreedom of religion.

blah Wrote:

Sophandros Wrote:

GGniner Wrote:the problem with this stuff, is making all religions equal. i.e. moral relativism, which is a logical fallacy, lazy and debunks itself.

So, you're saying that all religions are NOT equal, then?

So who decides which religion is legit and which is not? You? The voters?

How long have you been in favor of making America into a Christian Theocracy? <--- sarcasm for those who are slow on the uptake

Seriously, though, do you not realize that if one replaced the word "Christian" with "Muslim" in your arguments and viewpoints, you'd sound exactly like the terrorists whom you claim to want eliminated?

Did you not read my post? Or are you totally directed at GGNiner at this point? I think I made it pretty clear that I had no problem with someone who is actually in Congress expressing their faith. However, asking someone outside your faith to come and pray is notfreedom of religion.

I'm totally directed at GGNiner and the other theocrats on this. We're cool.

Ninerfan1 Wrote:

Sophandros Wrote:So, you're saying that all religions are NOT equal, then?

Logic would tell us that's the case. All religions can't be equal because all religions can't be true. One religion that teaches that Christ is the only way to live eternally cannot be just as true as one that doesn't.

Quote:So who decides which religion is legit and which is not? You? The voters?

Ultimately God does. And we'll all know one way or the other at some point.

Logic tells us that just as one's relationship with one's parents is not identical to one's siblings' relationship with one's parents, one's relationship with God may not be the same as another's.

And BECAUSE God determines who is "right" or not, who are you or any other human to say that another's faith is not equal to yours?

No, my friend, logic tells us that arrogantly assuming that one's faith is correct and every other faith is invalid is the incorrect course to take.

Sophandros Wrote:Logic tells us that just as one's relationship with one's parents is not identical to one's siblings' relationship with one's parents, one's relationship with God may not be the same as another's.

And BECAUSE God determines who is "right" or not, who are you or any other human to say that another's faith is not equal to yours?

No, my friend, logic tells us that arrogantly assuming that one's faith is correct and every other faith is invalid is the incorrect course to take.

if thats the case, Wiccan's and Satanist are just as 'true' and 'good' as any other religion, if you follow your own logic. Jihadist/bin laden, Tom Cruise, Cannibalist, etc....who are we to judge. We should be inviting them to give a cermony before congress, no one group/culture/religion is any better than the other......should be entertaining to watch, pass the popcorn.

with relativism, as soon as you make a stand on the issue(in this case religions being equal), then you are debunking your own argurment. Your making an absolute statement about relativism. If it was TRUELY relative then you would not be spending the time to argue the point, and arguing from an absolutist standpoint no less. For relativism to be true for all of us, it must be itself an absolute truth, yet relativism defines the universe as void of absolute truth. This self-contradiction nullifies the theory as invalid.


the other thing, is one's "religion", is alot more broad a term than is often thought of. Religion is one's highest value, it can be anything. Some people its themselves(vanity), their work(an idol), trees or mother Gaia, sex, drugs.......Scientology(its no wonder so many in Hollywood subscribe to this)

Sophandros Wrote:No, my friend, logic tells us that arrogantly assuming that one's faith is correct and every other faith is invalid is the incorrect course to take.

Well that may make sense from a scientific point of view, but from a human standpoint I'm not sure it does. Wouldn't you have to think that your own faith is better (i.e. correct) than everyone else's in order to make a decision to go with that religion? If subconsciously you felt they were all the same, why would you pick one over another? I think you have to make the "Why I am right and they are wrong" argument just to justify your decision. If you think about it, that has to happen no matter what your affiliation (atheists included).

GGniner Wrote:

Sophandros Wrote:Logic tells us that just as one's relationship with one's parents is not identical to one's siblings' relationship with one's parents, one's relationship with God may not be the same as another's.

And BECAUSE God determines who is "right" or not, who are you or any other human to say that another's faith is not equal to yours?

No, my friend, logic tells us that arrogantly assuming that one's faith is correct and every other faith is invalid is the incorrect course to take.

if thats the case, Wiccan's and Satanist are just as 'true' and 'good' as any other religion, if you follow your own logic. Jihadist/bin laden, Tom Cruise, Cannibalist, etc....who are we to judge. We should be inviting them to give a cermony before congress, no one group/culture/religion is any better than the other......should be entertaining to watch, pass the popcorn.

with relativism, as soon as you make a stand on the issue(in this case religions being equal), then you are debunking your own argurment. Your making an absolute statement about relativism. If it was TRUELY relative then you would not be spending the time to argue the point, and arguing from an absolutist standpoint no less. For relativism to be true for all of us, it must be itself an absolute truth, yet relativism defines the universe as void of absolute truth. This self-contradiction nullifies the theory as invalid.


the other thing, is one's "religion", is alot more broad a term than is often thought of. Religion is one's highest value, it can be anything. Some people its themselves(vanity), their work(an idol), trees or mother Gaia, sex, drugs.......Scientology(its no wonder so many in Hollywood subscribe to this)

First of all, you tried to use a slippery slope in discussing logic. That alone invalidates your argument.

For the record, Wicca is just as valid as every other religion out there. And if my congressman invited someone from a different faith who lives in his district to say a prayer, more power to him. It shows that he at least knows who lives in the area that he's supposed to be representing.

Answer me this, how do you get to Atlanta?