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"War On The Middle Class" ... a new book by Lou Do
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #21
 
Endzone2 Wrote:Sure the middle class of today is a little better off than the middle class of 1956. But in the world of electronic technicians, there was a peak in wages around the mid-90s, and they have remained flat ever since.

Even if that's true, is that unreasonable? It sounds like a decent job, so more people moved in to take advantage of it. Supply and demand...there is a greater supply, so prices have levelled off.

Quote:And since inflation is surely higher than what the feds say,

You bring that in as if we all agree. I don't believe that's true. Some things cost more, but other things cost less.
See what a cellphone went for in the mid-90s.
Check the prices on CD players or VCRs! Even computers have dropped in price.
Cereal is about the same...but far lower than in the late '80s and '90s. Other foods? Similar in price. Certainly didn't outpace inflation.

Quote:And with millions of Mexicans pouring into this country willing to work for cheap wages

Which means you pay less for landscaping...

Quote:and with companies sending as many jobs as they can overseas,

Which means you pay less for DVD players, etc.

Quote: it doesn't appear that things are going to get any better.

Better? Geesh, you have a decent job, a comfortable lifestyle, good health, opportunities to travel from TX to WA. How is that bad?

And if you buy a house, things actually will get better.

I don't think people know how good they have it.

Quote:America has hit her peak, and is now in decline.

Maybe. Things are cyclical. We can't always be at a peak. And it's pretty jingoistic to think the rest of the world will just sit back and not want to prosper as well.

Quote: It's just that she was so prosperous after WWII that it is going to take a while for all the money that was accumulated to be spent.

Heard the same thing in the 1970s when Japan was taking over the world. BTW, go check and see what's happening to manufacturing in Japan these days.

Quote: And I certainly agree that being middle class takes more than being content with a 33K/year job with no overtime such as mine. If I made money a priority, I'll bet I could do better.

So you have the luxury of enjoying your life, and not focuing on money and that's bad. You even have the expectation that by spending more effort, you could earn more. That's the very defintion of opportunity!
I am stunned that anyone would look at this and be unhappy, let alone angry, about it. There are a good 5B people in this world who would take this situation in a NY minute.

Quote: But my point is that I think it's going to be tougher to achieve middle class now than it was 10 years ago, and I can only see it getting tougher.

Maybe, but 10 years ago was a bit of a fluke. A Boom period that happens once in a generation. It's outlandish to expect that to be considered the norm.
10-19-2006 02:31 PM
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Endzone2 Offline
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Post: #22
 
DrTorch Wrote:
Endzone2 Wrote:Sure the middle class of today is a little better off than the middle class of 1956. But in the world of electronic technicians, there was a peak in wages around the mid-90s, and they have remained flat ever since.

Even if that's true, is that unreasonable? It sounds like a decent job, so more people moved in to take advantage of it. Supply and demand...there is a greater supply, so prices have levelled off.

Quote:And since inflation is surely higher than what the feds say,

You bring that in as if we all agree. I don't believe that's true. Some things cost more, but other things cost less.
See what a cellphone went for in the mid-90s.
Check the prices on CD players or VCRs! Even computers have dropped in price.
Cereal is about the same...but far lower than in the late '80s and '90s. Other foods? Similar in price. Certainly didn't outpace inflation.

Quote:And with millions of Mexicans pouring into this country willing to work for cheap wages

Which means you pay less for landscaping...

Quote:and with companies sending as many jobs as they can overseas,

Which means you pay less for DVD players, etc.

Quote: it doesn't appear that things are going to get any better.

Better? Geesh, you have a decent job, a comfortable lifestyle, good health, opportunities to travel from TX to WA. How is that bad?

And if you buy a house, things actually will get better.

I don't think people know how good they have it.

Quote:America has hit her peak, and is now in decline.

Maybe. Things are cyclical. We can't always be at a peak. And it's pretty jingoistic to think the rest of the world will just sit back and not want to prosper as well.

Quote: It's just that she was so prosperous after WWII that it is going to take a while for all the money that was accumulated to be spent.

Heard the same thing in the 1970s when Japan was taking over the world. BTW, go check and see what's happening to manufacturing in Japan these days.

Quote: And I certainly agree that being middle class takes more than being content with a 33K/year job with no overtime such as mine. If I made money a priority, I'll bet I could do better.

So you have the luxury of enjoying your life, and not focuing on money and that's bad. You even have the expectation that by spending more effort, you could earn more. That's the very defintion of opportunity!
I am stunned that anyone would look at this and be unhappy, let alone angry, about it. There are a good 5B people in this world who would take this situation in a NY minute.

Quote: But my point is that I think it's going to be tougher to achieve middle class now than it was 10 years ago, and I can only see it getting tougher.

Maybe, but 10 years ago was a bit of a fluke. A Boom period that happens once in a generation. It's outlandish to expect that to be considered the norm.

Yeah, and on top of all that some really nice guy gave me a good book to read on the subject of science & Christianity, and I'm so spoiled I haven't even started reading it yet. On top of all that we are saturated with media too.

But seriously remember the subject of this thread--the eroding middle class in America. I don't believe we're in another economic cycle. I believe America is heading permanently downhill. Certainly we don't enjoy the freedoms that we enjoyed in the 1960's, 1970's and early 1980's. I could give you a long list. Our financial decline will be next. Did we think we could destroy 45,000,000 of our own people and never pay a price for it? Did we think we could just sweep it under the rug and everything would be fine?
10-19-2006 11:26 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #23
 
Endzone2 Wrote:Certainly we don't enjoy the freedoms that we enjoyed in the 1960's, 1970's and early 1980's.

The draft years? The freedom to be drafted has been lost?
10-19-2006 11:56 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #24
 
Endzone2 Wrote:But seriously remember the subject of this thread--the eroding middle class in America. I don't believe we're in another economic cycle. I believe America is heading permanently downhill. Certainly we don't enjoy the freedoms that we enjoyed in the 1960's, 1970's and early 1980's. I could give you a long list.

Maybe so. That's hard to gauge. But the price of freedom is eternal vigilance, and I can believe that Americans have been lax.

Quote: Our financial decline will be next. Did we think we could destroy 45,000,000 of our own people and never pay a price for it? Did we think we could just sweep it under the rug and everything would be fine?

Another interesting perspective.

I don't know if now is any different than the 1970s in terms of foreign markets and an unknown future. I heard the same things then, and things have turned out ok for another 20-30 years.
10-20-2006 09:10 AM
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ShoreBuc Offline
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Post: #25
 
Endzone2 Wrote:
DrTorch Wrote:
Endzone2 Wrote:Sure the middle class of today is a little better off than the middle class of 1956. But in the world of electronic technicians, there was a peak in wages around the mid-90s, and they have remained flat ever since.

Even if that's true, is that unreasonable? It sounds like a decent job, so more people moved in to take advantage of it. Supply and demand...there is a greater supply, so prices have levelled off.

Quote:And since inflation is surely higher than what the feds say,

You bring that in as if we all agree. I don't believe that's true. Some things cost more, but other things cost less.
See what a cellphone went for in the mid-90s.
Check the prices on CD players or VCRs! Even computers have dropped in price.
Cereal is about the same...but far lower than in the late '80s and '90s. Other foods? Similar in price. Certainly didn't outpace inflation.

Quote:And with millions of Mexicans pouring into this country willing to work for cheap wages

Which means you pay less for landscaping...

Quote:and with companies sending as many jobs as they can overseas,

Which means you pay less for DVD players, etc.

Quote: it doesn't appear that things are going to get any better.

Better? Geesh, you have a decent job, a comfortable lifestyle, good health, opportunities to travel from TX to WA. How is that bad?

And if you buy a house, things actually will get better.

I don't think people know how good they have it.

Quote:America has hit her peak, and is now in decline.

Maybe. Things are cyclical. We can't always be at a peak. And it's pretty jingoistic to think the rest of the world will just sit back and not want to prosper as well.

Quote: It's just that she was so prosperous after WWII that it is going to take a while for all the money that was accumulated to be spent.

Heard the same thing in the 1970s when Japan was taking over the world. BTW, go check and see what's happening to manufacturing in Japan these days.

Quote: And I certainly agree that being middle class takes more than being content with a 33K/year job with no overtime such as mine. If I made money a priority, I'll bet I could do better.

So you have the luxury of enjoying your life, and not focuing on money and that's bad. You even have the expectation that by spending more effort, you could earn more. That's the very defintion of opportunity!
I am stunned that anyone would look at this and be unhappy, let alone angry, about it. There are a good 5B people in this world who would take this situation in a NY minute.

Quote: But my point is that I think it's going to be tougher to achieve middle class now than it was 10 years ago, and I can only see it getting tougher.

Maybe, but 10 years ago was a bit of a fluke. A Boom period that happens once in a generation. It's outlandish to expect that to be considered the norm.

Yeah, and on top of all that some really nice guy gave me a good book to read on the subject of science & Christianity, and I'm so spoiled I haven't even started reading it yet. On top of all that we are saturated with media too.

But seriously remember the subject of this thread--the eroding middle class in America. I don't believe we're in another economic cycle. I believe America is heading permanently downhill. Certainly we don't enjoy the freedoms that we enjoyed in the 1960's, 1970's and early 1980's. I could give you a long list. Our financial decline will be next. Did we think we could destroy 45,000,000 of our own people and never pay a price for it? Did we think we could just sweep it under the rug and everything would be fine?

So using your logic how would you explain China's booming economy. Most of their population does not even believe in the God of Abraham and they kill more babies and humans then we ever thought about. Only a matter of time before God sends their economy into a tail spin so which country will step in to be the next economic power in God's favor??
10-20-2006 09:17 AM
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GrayBeard Offline
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Post: #26
 
I also beleive that America is heading permanently down hill as well, but not quite for the same reasons as endzone2. It has nothing to do with abortions, but I won't get into my crazy religious literalist stuff in this thread.
10-20-2006 09:26 AM
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ShoreBuc Offline
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Post: #27
 
GrayBeard Wrote:I also beleive that America is heading permanently down hill as well, but not quite for the same reasons as endzone2. It has nothing to do with abortions, but I won't get into my crazy religious literalist stuff in this thread.

Why not?? I would like to hear your theory. Ignorance is when you are not willing to consider an idea or perspective other then your own so fire away GrayBeard.
10-20-2006 09:29 AM
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Post: #28
 
ShoreBuc Wrote:
GrayBeard Wrote:I also beleive that America is heading permanently down hill as well, but not quite for the same reasons as endzone2. It has nothing to do with abortions, but I won't get into my crazy religious literalist stuff in this thread.

Why not?? I would like to hear your theory. Ignorance is when you are not willing to consider an idea or perspective other then your own so fire away GrayBeard.

It has to do with "end-time" Biblical prophecy and how the world completely falls apart.

I will go as far as say that this country was founded on Christian principles, so God blessed it richly and amazingly. This country stood with Israel and supported Israel, so God blessed it richly and amazingly. Now, the country is seperating from the Christian Principles, so God's blessings are diminishing. Also, this country is helping to divide up Israel, so God's blessings are greatly diminishing.
10-20-2006 09:35 AM
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ShoreBuc Offline
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Post: #29
 
GrayBeard Wrote:
ShoreBuc Wrote:
GrayBeard Wrote:I also beleive that America is heading permanently down hill as well, but not quite for the same reasons as endzone2. It has nothing to do with abortions, but I won't get into my crazy religious literalist stuff in this thread.

Why not?? I would like to hear your theory. Ignorance is when you are not willing to consider an idea or perspective other then your own so fire away GrayBeard.

It has to do with "end-time" Biblical prophecy and how the world completely falls apart.

I will go as far as say that this country was founded on Christian principles, so God blessed it richly and amazingly. This country stood with Israel and supported Israel, so God blessed it richly and amazingly. Now, the country is seperating from the Christian Principles, so God's blessings are diminishing. Also, this country is helping to divide up Israel, so God's blessings are greatly diminishing.

GrayBeard,
would you agree that almost every generation since Jesus thought that they would be the one's to see the end of times??
You could take it a step further and say that Jesus told his disciples that they would not be gone from the Earth before his return. You also have to ask who was the author of the end of times Bible Prophecy and why do they look so similar to end of times prophecy that had been circulating especially through the Near East for hundreds of years before the Bible Prophecy's were written.
10-20-2006 09:47 AM
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GrayBeard Offline
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Post: #30
 
ShoreBuc Wrote:
GrayBeard Wrote:
ShoreBuc Wrote:
GrayBeard Wrote:I also beleive that America is heading permanently down hill as well, but not quite for the same reasons as endzone2. It has nothing to do with abortions, but I won't get into my crazy religious literalist stuff in this thread.

Why not?? I would like to hear your theory. Ignorance is when you are not willing to consider an idea or perspective other then your own so fire away GrayBeard.

It has to do with "end-time" Biblical prophecy and how the world completely falls apart.

I will go as far as say that this country was founded on Christian principles, so God blessed it richly and amazingly. This country stood with Israel and supported Israel, so God blessed it richly and amazingly. Now, the country is seperating from the Christian Principles, so God's blessings are diminishing. Also, this country is helping to divide up Israel, so God's blessings are greatly diminishing.

GrayBeard,
would you agree that almost every generation since Jesus thought that they would be the one's to see the end of times??
You could take it a step further and say that Jesus told his disciples that they would not be gone from the Earth before his return. You also have to ask who was the author of the end of times Bible Prophecy and why do they look so similar to end of times prophecy that had been circulating especially through the Near East for hundreds of years before the Bible Prophecy's were written.

I've read your theories about Christianity stealing from other religions. Personally, I don't buy it. The "end-time" prophecies are all through the Bible (Old and New Testament). There are still some prophecies to be fullfilled, but there are others that seem to be taking place right now. It is not until all prophecies are fullfilled before the Son of Man sets foot back on this earth.

One thing to note is how suddenly, Russia and Iran seem to be in bed together. Will they combine their forces and attack Israel? Will God intervene? If they do and if He does, that would be prophecy fullfilled, and the clock ticking to the New Jerusalem will tick one moment closer.

But I said I wasn't going to take this thread down that road, so I will stop here.
10-20-2006 09:53 AM
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ShoreBuc Offline
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Post: #31
 
ShoreBuc Wrote:
GrayBeard Wrote:
ShoreBuc Wrote:
GrayBeard Wrote:I also beleive that America is heading permanently down hill as well, but not quite for the same reasons as endzone2. It has nothing to do with abortions, but I won't get into my crazy religious literalist stuff in this thread.

Why not?? I would like to hear your theory. Ignorance is when you are not willing to consider an idea or perspective other then your own so fire away GrayBeard.

It has to do with "end-time" Biblical prophecy and how the world completely falls apart.

I will go as far as say that this country was founded on Christian principles, so God blessed it richly and amazingly. This country stood with Israel and supported Israel, so God blessed it richly and amazingly. Now, the country is seperating from the Christian Principles, so God's blessings are diminishing. Also, this country is helping to divide up Israel, so God's blessings are greatly diminishing.

GrayBeard,
would you agree that almost every generation since Jesus thought that they would be the one's to see the end of times??
You could take it a step further and say that Jesus told his disciples that they would not be gone from the Earth before his return. You also have to ask who was the author of the end of times Bible Prophecy and why do they look so similar to end of times prophecy that had been circulating especially through the Near East for hundreds of years before the Bible Prophecy's were written.

I would also question you what about the creation of the United States do you think God would of found favor with and blessed??
The fact we brought slavery to the New World?? The fact we committed genocide on Native Americans in the name of God?? The fact we marched westward under the flag of manifest destiny and God dislodging the British, French, Spanish and Native Americans. The fact our country did not give women any rights until recently and held down the rights of other minorities even longer??

As a Historian I am not an apologist for American history and think we did what every other culture in our planets history did to aquire power and land. I am also not neive enough to think that any God could of looked down and smiled at what was going on in America or any other part of the world.

If you are truely a Biblical literalist you would have to agree that this planet is long past due the wrath of God. We should of been wiped out by flood, fire from the sky or plague centuries ago.
10-20-2006 09:59 AM
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ShoreBuc Offline
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Post: #32
 
GrayBeard Wrote:
ShoreBuc Wrote:
GrayBeard Wrote:
ShoreBuc Wrote:
GrayBeard Wrote:I also beleive that America is heading permanently down hill as well, but not quite for the same reasons as endzone2. It has nothing to do with abortions, but I won't get into my crazy religious literalist stuff in this thread.

Why not?? I would like to hear your theory. Ignorance is when you are not willing to consider an idea or perspective other then your own so fire away GrayBeard.

It has to do with "end-time" Biblical prophecy and how the world completely falls apart.

I will go as far as say that this country was founded on Christian principles, so God blessed it richly and amazingly. This country stood with Israel and supported Israel, so God blessed it richly and amazingly. Now, the country is seperating from the Christian Principles, so God's blessings are diminishing. Also, this country is helping to divide up Israel, so God's blessings are greatly diminishing.

GrayBeard,
would you agree that almost every generation since Jesus thought that they would be the one's to see the end of times??
You could take it a step further and say that Jesus told his disciples that they would not be gone from the Earth before his return. You also have to ask who was the author of the end of times Bible Prophecy and why do they look so similar to end of times prophecy that had been circulating especially through the Near East for hundreds of years before the Bible Prophecy's were written.

I've read your theories about Christianity stealing from other religions. Personally, I don't buy it. The "end-time" prophecies are all through the Bible (Old and New Testament). There are still some prophecies to be fullfilled, but there are others that seem to be taking place right now. It is not until all prophecies are fullfilled before the Son of Man sets foot back on this earth.

One thing to note is how suddenly, Russia and Iran seem to be in bed together. Will they combine their forces and attack Israel? Will God intervene? If they do and if He does, that would be prophecy fullfilled, and the clock ticking to the New Jerusalem will tick one moment closer.

But I said I wasn't going to take this thread down that road, so I will stop here.

Mine are not theories they are documented history. How would you explain the 16 God men that were born of virgin births, under the sign of a star, were crucified and raised from the dead after three days and will come back to judge all mankind??
If you do not think that the Jews borrowed from other cultures during their many exhiles then you have simply not read history.
The OT prophecy of the Messiah himself has not been fulfilled according to the Jews. The Messiah was to be a warrior King who would free Israel and help them dominate the region. It would be a long stretch to say that Jesus fulfilled the prophecy of the Torah.
If you dont think that Christianity has at the very least borrowed from other Religions of the Near East how would you explain us celebrating the birth of Jesus on December 25?? Or Easter?? Passover? etc.. the list goes on and on. There was no way that any of the three major religions could survive without pacifying the masses of 1500 yrs ago by granting them some of their cherrished traditions.
10-20-2006 10:07 AM
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Post: #33
 
GrayBeard Wrote:But I said I wasn't going to take this thread down that road, so I will stop here.
10-20-2006 10:11 AM
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Post: #34
 
Saw an article that reminded me of this thread....

http://biz.yahoo.com/weekend/avg_1.html

How You Stack Up
The Average American: 1967 and Today
By Tom Van Riper, Forbes.com

As the U.S. population crossed the 300 million mark sometime around 7:46 a.m. Tuesday (according to the U.S. Census Bureau), the typical family is doing a whole lot better than their grandparents were in 1967, the year the population first surpassed 200 million.

Mr. and Mrs. Median's $46,326 in annual income is 32% more than their mid-'60s counterparts, even when adjusted for inflation, and 13% more than those at the median in the economic boom year of 1985. And thanks to ballooning real estate values, average household net worth has increased even faster. The typical American household has a net worth of $465,970, up 83% from 1965, 60% from 1985 and 35% from 1995.

Throw in the low inflation of the past 20 years, a deregulated airline industry that's made travel much cheaper, plus technological progress that's provided the middle class with not only better cars and televisions, but every gadget from DVD players to iPods, all at lower and lower prices, and it's obvious that Mr. and Mrs. Median are living the life of Riley compared to their parents and grandparents.

So why are they so unhappy?

Yes, despite their material prosperity, the Medians are a grumpy lot. A Parade Magazine survey (a good source for all things median) performed by Mark Clements Research in April showed that 48% of Americans believe they're worse off than their parents were. A June 2006 study by GFK-Roper group showed that 66% of Americans said that their personal situations in the "Good Old Days" -- defined by the bulk of respondents as anywhere between the 1950s and the 1980s -- were better than they are today. And in May, a Pew Research Center poll showed that half of U.S. adults believe the current trends point toward their children's future being worse than their own present.

Attribute some of the dissatisfaction to what economist Milton Friedman dubbed "Permanent Income Theory," which assumes that people measure where they are relative to where they expected to be a few years ago. They don't care a bit what the average income was four decades ago.

"If you expect a 3% rise in income and you get 2.5%, you're disappointed," says Ken Goldstein, an economist at the Conference Board, a private research group in New York.

And because people generally judge their fortunes not in absolute terms, but by comparing themselves to others, the super-success of the top 1% can make Mr. and Mrs. Median feel relatively poorer. Take CEOs--the $19 million that Wal-Mart Chief Lee Scott raked in last year was 410 times what Mr. and Mrs. Median made, as opposed to the $469,000 a year earned by Exxon's Ken Jamieson in 1975, which was a mere 40 times more.

It's the same with celebrity athletes. Those who worshipped Joe Namath in the 1960s could at least identify with the $142,000 a year he made ($848,000 in today's dollars). But how many can identify with the $87 million Tiger Woods took in last year? And not only are the elite making much more today, relatively, than the Medians, the rise of cable television and the Internet assures that they know all about it.

"It's now easy for us to see how other people around the world live, not just how our neighbors live," says Barry Schwartz, a professor of psychology at Swarthmore College. Schwartz also argues that the plethora of consumer choices today, while generally a good thing, can be a catalyst for bringing people down. Not everyone can have a new flat screen television with both a 60 inch screen and premium sound.

"The more options you look at, the more you have to give up," he says.

It's true that the wealthy have grabbed up a larger share of the growing economic pie over the past 40 years. Census Bureau stats show that the percentage of pay collected by the middle 60% of wage earners dipped to 46% in 2005 from 52% in both 1965 and 1975. That figure doesn't include income from investments, which would make the gap even larger.

But the overall pie is much larger too. A near quadrupling of the Gross Domestic Product since 1967 means that today's Americans share $12.5 trillion in wealth, or $41,579 per capita, compared to the $3.8 trillion, or $18,951 per capita, enjoyed by 200 million people back then.

Of course, the super-rich have done even better. When the first edition of the Forbes 400 hit newsstands in 1982, the top-ranked person was shipping magnate Daniel Ludwig, with an estimated net worth of $2 billion. That was about 20,000 times the net worth of Mr. and Mrs. Median at the time. There were only 12 billionaires on the list that year.

The top person on the 2006 edition of the Forbes 400, Microsoft Co-Founder Bill Gates, had a net worth of $53 billion, or 133,741 times the Medians. That means that while Mr. and Mrs. Median have seen their net worth rise 130% percent since the first Forbes 400, the richest man in the country is worth 1,225% more. Oh, and every member of the list is now a billionaire.

But what does the pay of celebrities and CEOs have to do with the average American, other than provide fodder for jealousy? It would be one thing if growing incomes at the top stretched prices of goods and services so much as to dramatically push inflation ahead for everyone else. But inflation has been tame for over two decades.

The fact is that in real terms, the Medians are doing great. Mr. Median makes 25% more than his father did 30 years ago, even after holding for inflation. Mrs. Median is a lot more likely to work in the professional ranks than her mom was, and to be paid about three times as much doing so. And though she still makes only 77% of what her male counterparts earn, this is up from 33% in 1965. They dote on the same number of children (two), but waited longer to have them, until both careers are well under way. They also pay less tax to the federal government and have 8% more purchasing power than they did 20 years ago, including 5.7% more than they had just ten years ago.

But, if despite their prosperity, the Medians need some cheering up, there is one powerful person whose wage growth they have outpaced nicely over the last two generations.

When Lyndon Johnson occupied the White House in 1965, he earned $100,000 a year, or 14 times what the Medians earned. This year, George W. Bush will earn $400,000, or just eight times the Medians.

Click here to see Mr. and Mrs. Median over the decades.
10-20-2006 11:01 AM
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Post: #35
 
Middle class living on the edge?
Could your family absorb the financial strain of a job loss or medical emergency? A Democrat-funded think tank says most families' economic risks are growing.

By Debora Vrana
The middle class today is less prepared for an economic emergency, such as losing a job or visiting an emergency room, than at any time since the late 1970s, concludes a new study from a political think tank in Washington, D.C., that's funded by Democrats.

"Middle Class in Turmoil," produced by the Center for American Progress and the Service Employees International Union, mines data from the Federal Reserve, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, census records and other sources to paint a picture of increasing peril for those in the middle 60% of income distribution, about $18,000 to $88,000.

Despite a growing economy, a rising stock market and stronger corporate earnings that are helping the rich get richer, the middle class in America is caught in an unprecedented squeeze that makes it increasingly unstable, the study's authors say. The financial declines each year since 2001 have been dramatic, they report:

Income for middle-class families has remained stagnant or flat since 2001.

Prices for big-ticket items -- housing, health care, college education and transportation -- have skyrocketed, leaving families unable to save.

Middle-class families are borrowing record amounts of money to pay their monthly bills.

"Families are being forced to live beyond their means, just to pay for the basics, such as housing and health care," said Christian Weller, a senior economist for the Center for American Progress, which is headed by John Podesta, a former Clinton-administration chief of staff. "They are not only spending their current income but all their future income."

Economic risks up sharply
Researchers frame their conclusions in terms of risk:

Would you be able to keep your home for even three months if the family breadwinner became unemployed? Just 28.8% of middle-class families could sustain themselves through a spell of joblessness in 2004, the most recent year for data, compared with 39.2% in 2001, the study says.

Do you have the cash reserves to pay for a medical emergency? With double-digit increases in health-insurance costs for most of this decade, it's no surprise that the number of Americans without insurance rose by 1.3 million last year, up to 46.6 million people, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. The cost of family health insurance is up nearly 90% since 2000, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation, a nonprofit organization. The study says only 22.3% of middle-class families could cope with the $3,013 average cost of a small medical emergency, such as treatment for a broken ankle. That's down from the nearly 35% that could handle such an expense in 2001.

Do you have three months of income put away for a rainy day? Just 18.3% of middle-class families -- those with dual incomes earning from $18,500 to $88,030 -- in 2004 had accumulated wealth equal to three months' worth of income, a drop from the nearly 29% who had such savings in 2001. The number is expected to be even lower now.

"People are incredibly anxious, and families are stressed out. We're seeing too many families passing like ships in the nights in the driveway," said Andy Stern, the head of the Service Employees International Union, the largest and fastest-growing union in the United States. "The rising tide is not raising all boats -- only luxury liners. It's not building the kind of America that any of us want."

To maintain day-to-day consumption, Americans are taking on record amounts of consumer debt, researchers say -- $5.2 trillion since 2001. In June 2006, families took on debt equivalent to 129% of their disposable incomes, a big increase from the 96% in March 2001. Many homeowners are tapping into the equity in their homes, assuming more debt to pay for escalating energy and health-care costs. Falling home prices could force many of these middle-class families into foreclosure or back into apartments.

Middle-class families are also struggling with the ballooning costs of higher education. The total cost of tuition, fees, and room and board at four-year public colleges has increased 44% in the past four years.

A political football
Expect the financial condition of the middle class to become a critical issue in the November elections, say Democrats, even though Republicans have assailed the new study, arguing the concern is overblown.

"Let's not kid ourselves. The data say we're wealthy. And we're one of the wealthiest nations on Earth," said Tim Kane, a director at the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank in Washington, D.C. "You can make a case that there is increased inequality, with the rich getting richer, but I don't think there is increased poverty."

But some economists and others, such as Lou Dobbs, a CNN commentator, are increasingly calling for public-policy action to alleviate financial stresses on the middle class. Dobbs has made the subject a key focus of his on-air commentary, calling the slipping condition of this group nothing less than "class warfare."

One family feeling the pinch is the Andrew Miller family in Charleston, S.C. With a combined income of just less than $100,000 a year, Miller and his wife say they work harder than ever but are no better off than five years ago. They keep a tight rein on spending, but tiny raises that don't match inflation and escalating health costs are leaving them feeling like they are treading water.

"The (medical) co-pays have jumped to $25 for each visit," said Miller, who has two daughters, ages 10 and 8. "Luckily, we have pretty healthy kids. But our premiums are also going up. We're just getting squeezed here."
10-22-2006 11:19 AM
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Post: #36
 
SouthGAEagle Wrote:Saw an article that reminded me of this thread....

http://biz.yahoo.com/weekend/avg_1.html

How You Stack Up
The Average American: 1967 and Today
By Tom Van Riper, Forbes.com

As the U.S. population crossed the 300 million mark sometime around 7:46 a.m. Tuesday (according to the U.S. Census Bureau), the typical family is doing a whole lot better than their grandparents were in 1967, the year the population first surpassed 200 million.

Mr. and Mrs. Median's $46,326 in annual income is 32% more than their mid-'60s counterparts, even when adjusted for inflation, and 13% more than those at the median in the economic boom year of 1985. And thanks to ballooning real estate values, average household net worth has increased even faster. The typical American household has a net worth of $465,970, up 83% from 1965, 60% from 1985 and 35% from 1995.

Throw in the low inflation of the past 20 years, a deregulated airline industry that's made travel much cheaper, plus technological progress that's provided the middle class with not only better cars and televisions, but every gadget from DVD players to iPods, all at lower and lower prices, and it's obvious that Mr. and Mrs. Median are living the life of Riley compared to their parents and grandparents.

So why are they so unhappy?

Yes, despite their material prosperity, the Medians are a grumpy lot. A Parade Magazine survey (a good source for all things median) performed by Mark Clements Research in April showed that 48% of Americans believe they're worse off than their parents were. A June 2006 study by GFK-Roper group showed that 66% of Americans said that their personal situations in the "Good Old Days" -- defined by the bulk of respondents as anywhere between the 1950s and the 1980s -- were better than they are today. And in May, a Pew Research Center poll showed that half of U.S. adults believe the current trends point toward their children's future being worse than their own present.

Attribute some of the dissatisfaction to what economist Milton Friedman dubbed "Permanent Income Theory," which assumes that people measure where they are relative to where they expected to be a few years ago. They don't care a bit what the average income was four decades ago.

"If you expect a 3% rise in income and you get 2.5%, you're disappointed," says Ken Goldstein, an economist at the Conference Board, a private research group in New York.

And because people generally judge their fortunes not in absolute terms, but by comparing themselves to others, the super-success of the top 1% can make Mr. and Mrs. Median feel relatively poorer. Take CEOs--the $19 million that Wal-Mart Chief Lee Scott raked in last year was 410 times what Mr. and Mrs. Median made, as opposed to the $469,000 a year earned by Exxon's Ken Jamieson in 1975, which was a mere 40 times more.

It's the same with celebrity athletes. Those who worshipped Joe Namath in the 1960s could at least identify with the $142,000 a year he made ($848,000 in today's dollars). But how many can identify with the $87 million Tiger Woods took in last year? And not only are the elite making much more today, relatively, than the Medians, the rise of cable television and the Internet assures that they know all about it.

"It's now easy for us to see how other people around the world live, not just how our neighbors live," says Barry Schwartz, a professor of psychology at Swarthmore College. Schwartz also argues that the plethora of consumer choices today, while generally a good thing, can be a catalyst for bringing people down. Not everyone can have a new flat screen television with both a 60 inch screen and premium sound.

"The more options you look at, the more you have to give up," he says.

It's true that the wealthy have grabbed up a larger share of the growing economic pie over the past 40 years. Census Bureau stats show that the percentage of pay collected by the middle 60% of wage earners dipped to 46% in 2005 from 52% in both 1965 and 1975. That figure doesn't include income from investments, which would make the gap even larger.

But the overall pie is much larger too. A near quadrupling of the Gross Domestic Product since 1967 means that today's Americans share $12.5 trillion in wealth, or $41,579 per capita, compared to the $3.8 trillion, or $18,951 per capita, enjoyed by 200 million people back then.

Of course, the super-rich have done even better. When the first edition of the Forbes 400 hit newsstands in 1982, the top-ranked person was shipping magnate Daniel Ludwig, with an estimated net worth of $2 billion. That was about 20,000 times the net worth of Mr. and Mrs. Median at the time. There were only 12 billionaires on the list that year.

The top person on the 2006 edition of the Forbes 400, Microsoft Co-Founder Bill Gates, had a net worth of $53 billion, or 133,741 times the Medians. That means that while Mr. and Mrs. Median have seen their net worth rise 130% percent since the first Forbes 400, the richest man in the country is worth 1,225% more. Oh, and every member of the list is now a billionaire.

But what does the pay of celebrities and CEOs have to do with the average American, other than provide fodder for jealousy? It would be one thing if growing incomes at the top stretched prices of goods and services so much as to dramatically push inflation ahead for everyone else. But inflation has been tame for over two decades.

The fact is that in real terms, the Medians are doing great. Mr. Median makes 25% more than his father did 30 years ago, even after holding for inflation. Mrs. Median is a lot more likely to work in the professional ranks than her mom was, and to be paid about three times as much doing so. And though she still makes only 77% of what her male counterparts earn, this is up from 33% in 1965. They dote on the same number of children (two), but waited longer to have them, until both careers are well under way. They also pay less tax to the federal government and have 8% more purchasing power than they did 20 years ago, including 5.7% more than they had just ten years ago.

But, if despite their prosperity, the Medians need some cheering up, there is one powerful person whose wage growth they have outpaced nicely over the last two generations.

When Lyndon Johnson occupied the White House in 1965, he earned $100,000 a year, or 14 times what the Medians earned. This year, George W. Bush will earn $400,000, or just eight times the Medians.

Click here to see Mr. and Mrs. Median over the decades.

IMHO that article is complete bull$hit! It sounds like something written by a member of the republican party--and I have NEVER voted for any democrat in my entire life. The one thing this guy fails to see is that back in the good ole days only one income was necessary to sustain the middle class lifestyle. I wonder how his numbers would come out if he took away Mrs. Median's income from the calcuations?
10-22-2006 11:25 AM
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Endzone2 Offline
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Post: #37
 
ShoreBuc your version of morality is based in secular humanism and is completely devoid of Biblical perspective. Do you realize that the Lord God told King Saul to go into the land of the Amalekites and kill every man, woman, CHILD, and every animal and every living thing there? And guess what? The Amalekites were there first! Yep, that's right, there were in the land first that the Israelites passed through.

What is the horse crap in humanism that says, "whoever was there first has the right to be there". I've heard that now for a couple decades, and it is Godless people who say that. I guess we should be saying that to the Mexicans who are pouring over our border now. We should be telling them that shouldn't we? Do you think they will stop coming if we tell them that ShoreBuc?

There are Mexicans in EVERY city and small city in the USA that you can think of. I'm convinced that there is a big board drawn up somewhere and people are assigned to go to places. It may even be a collaboration between the U.S. & Mexican governments. I mean they are in Montana, Maine, and all cities inbetween. Guess what? The Mexicans weren't there first. In fact they were never there until the great wave of Mexican immigration reached its peak in 1990 and continues at the same rate until this day.

This crap that whoever was there first has the right to stay there and not be invaded for a foreign army has never been how things were done throughout the history of the world. Look at all the different nations that have risen and fallen in world history. How many of them were there first? Or, in your utopian secular humanist world is that the way things should work?
10-22-2006 11:30 AM
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Post: #38
 
Endzone2 Wrote:Middle class living on the edge?
Could your family absorb the financial strain of a job loss or medical emergency? A Democrat-funded think tank says most families' economic risks are growing.

By Debora Vrana
The middle class today is less prepared for an economic emergency, such as losing a job or visiting an emergency room, than at any time since the late 1970s, concludes a new study from a political think tank in Washington, D.C., that's funded by Democrats.

"Middle Class in Turmoil," produced by the Center for American Progress and the Service Employees International Union, mines data from the Federal Reserve, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, census records and other sources to paint a picture of increasing peril for those in the middle 60% of income distribution, about $18,000 to $88,000.

Despite a growing economy, a rising stock market and stronger corporate earnings that are helping the rich get richer, the middle class in America is caught in an unprecedented squeeze that makes it increasingly unstable, the study's authors say. The financial declines each year since 2001 have been dramatic, they report:

Income for middle-class families has remained stagnant or flat since 2001.

Prices for big-ticket items -- housing, health care, college education and transportation -- have skyrocketed, leaving families unable to save.

Middle-class families are borrowing record amounts of money to pay their monthly bills.

"Families are being forced to live beyond their means, just to pay for the basics, such as housing and health care," said Christian Weller, a senior economist for the Center for American Progress, which is headed by John Podesta, a former Clinton-administration chief of staff. "They are not only spending their current income but all their future income."

Economic risks up sharply
Researchers frame their conclusions in terms of risk:

Would you be able to keep your home for even three months if the family breadwinner became unemployed? Just 28.8% of middle-class families could sustain themselves through a spell of joblessness in 2004, the most recent year for data, compared with 39.2% in 2001, the study says.

Do you have the cash reserves to pay for a medical emergency? With double-digit increases in health-insurance costs for most of this decade, it's no surprise that the number of Americans without insurance rose by 1.3 million last year, up to 46.6 million people, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. The cost of family health insurance is up nearly 90% since 2000, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation, a nonprofit organization. The study says only 22.3% of middle-class families could cope with the $3,013 average cost of a small medical emergency, such as treatment for a broken ankle. That's down from the nearly 35% that could handle such an expense in 2001.

Do you have three months of income put away for a rainy day? Just 18.3% of middle-class families -- those with dual incomes earning from $18,500 to $88,030 -- in 2004 had accumulated wealth equal to three months' worth of income, a drop from the nearly 29% who had such savings in 2001. The number is expected to be even lower now.

"People are incredibly anxious, and families are stressed out. We're seeing too many families passing like ships in the nights in the driveway," said Andy Stern, the head of the Service Employees International Union, the largest and fastest-growing union in the United States. "The rising tide is not raising all boats -- only luxury liners. It's not building the kind of America that any of us want."

To maintain day-to-day consumption, Americans are taking on record amounts of consumer debt, researchers say -- $5.2 trillion since 2001. In June 2006, families took on debt equivalent to 129% of their disposable incomes, a big increase from the 96% in March 2001. Many homeowners are tapping into the equity in their homes, assuming more debt to pay for escalating energy and health-care costs. Falling home prices could force many of these middle-class families into foreclosure or back into apartments.

Middle-class families are also struggling with the ballooning costs of higher education. The total cost of tuition, fees, and room and board at four-year public colleges has increased 44% in the past four years.

A political football
Expect the financial condition of the middle class to become a critical issue in the November elections, say Democrats, even though Republicans have assailed the new study, arguing the concern is overblown.

"Let's not kid ourselves. The data say we're wealthy. And we're one of the wealthiest nations on Earth," said Tim Kane, a director at the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank in Washington, D.C. "You can make a case that there is increased inequality, with the rich getting richer, but I don't think there is increased poverty."

But some economists and others, such as Lou Dobbs, a CNN commentator, are increasingly calling for public-policy action to alleviate financial stresses on the middle class. Dobbs has made the subject a key focus of his on-air commentary, calling the slipping condition of this group nothing less than "class warfare."

One family feeling the pinch is the Andrew Miller family in Charleston, S.C. With a combined income of just less than $100,000 a year, Miller and his wife say they work harder than ever but are no better off than five years ago. They keep a tight rein on spending, but tiny raises that don't match inflation and escalating health costs are leaving them feeling like they are treading water.

"The (medical) co-pays have jumped to $25 for each visit," said Miller, who has two daughters, ages 10 and 8. "Luckily, we have pretty healthy kids. But our premiums are also going up. We're just getting squeezed here."


First you must remember that, as you note, this is a DEMOCRAT FUNDED THINK tank, headed by a Clintonista. Their mission is to make things look as bad as possible for the Republicans. if Democrats were in power, they would spin these same facts and assumption very differently.

Fitst, I object to lumping families with $18K income in the same group as families with $88K income. There is no comaprison here. Plus there is no differentiation between families with one or two memebers and families with many more, and families with onkly one breadwinner and families with more.

Sustaining a faimly through 3 month's with no income - apparently the unstated part of the equation is "without public assistance or unemployment compensation" . But the best solution is the availability of new jobs - something you find in an economy with less than 5% unemployment and thousands of new jobs being created weekly, like this one. Yes, you might have to work in a different field - the unemplyed welder might take a job building fences - but whoever said you guarteed to stay in the same field all your life?


Cash reserves for a medical emergency? i agree that health care costs/insurance is one of the main problems facing us in the US. But I know a lot of people who cannot get and/or pay for insurance. So they go to the hospitials and get free care, paid for by the prices being driven up for those who can pay for insurance. I am uninsurable, so i have to go to my state's health risk pool and pay a lot for a $5000 deductible policy. i do it to protect me and my family from disasters - cancer, brain tumor, etc. It becomes simple - if you have the money to pay or the assets to protect, get insurance, if not don't. You will still get medical care. A friend of mine who lost his buisness to divorce and taxes and is uninsurable has been in the county system for years. If he has to go in for a month and runs up a $200K bill, it will be written off.


That guy Miller, who makes $100K but is complaing that copays have jumped to $25 (from what? - $20?) - are sure that is they guy you want for poster boy of the ailing middle class?

Yeah the rich are getting richer. I have no problem with that. First, i hope someday to be one of them. America is like that - even someone born poor has a chance to do well. Second, rich people are important to the economy, just as predators are important to an ecology. There's a new shopping center down the street from me. Provides hundreds of jobs, provided hundreds more during its construction. Wouldn't be there if we had to wait for 1,000 middle clas people to put up $3,000 each to building. No, it took one greedy rich guy wanting to get richer. Third, the middle class is getting richer, too. Fourth, poor people are getting richer, too. Everybodys doing better. If some are getting better faster, what's the problem?

Of course these are generalities. there are some individuals in bad condition and getting worse. For some of these, it is their own fault and for others it is not. But in general, all classes of Americans are better off than they used to be.

Beleive me, if Hillary gets elected in '08, this Center for American Progress will change its story in a heartbeat - with all the improvement starting on her Inauguration Day.
10-22-2006 01:55 PM
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ShoreBuc Offline
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Post: #39
 
Endzone2 Wrote:ShoreBuc your version of morality is based in secular humanism and is completely devoid of Biblical perspective. Do you realize that the Lord God told King Saul to go into the land of the Amalekites and kill every man, woman, CHILD, and every animal and every living thing there? And guess what? The Amalekites were there first! Yep, that's right, there were in the land first that the Israelites passed through.

What is the horse crap in humanism that says, "whoever was there first has the right to be there". I've heard that now for a couple decades, and it is Godless people who say that. I guess we should be saying that to the Mexicans who are pouring over our border now. We should be telling them that shouldn't we? Do you think they will stop coming if we tell them that ShoreBuc?

There are Mexicans in EVERY city and small city in the USA that you can think of. I'm convinced that there is a big board drawn up somewhere and people are assigned to go to places. It may even be a collaboration between the U.S. & Mexican governments. I mean they are in Montana, Maine, and all cities inbetween. Guess what? The Mexicans weren't there first. In fact they were never there until the great wave of Mexican immigration reached its peak in 1990 and continues at the same rate until this day.

This crap that whoever was there first has the right to stay there and not be invaded for a foreign army has never been how things were done throughout the history of the world. Look at all the different nations that have risen and fallen in world history. How many of them were there first? Or, in your utopian secular humanist world is that the way things should work?

Nice to know that you have defined my version of morality through some postings on a message board 03-melodramatic To define it better I would describe it as Deistic Humanism I am well aware that the Old Testament God was fond of killing and did not hesitate to do so. King Saul in fact showed mercy to King Ahag of the Amalekites and kept much of their livestock for plunder which put him in great disfavor with God and he is replaced with David as prophesied by Samuel.
This great King Saul went on to kill 85 priest and then massacred the entire town of Nob for being so called accomplices. Sauls claim to fame is being one of only 5 suicides mentioned in the Bible. If the guy was a mythical character he was a dirt bag and murderer only to be followed by another one in King David.

As for territory and conquest I do not believe that those in possession own a right to anything. Mankind is a barbaric species and it has always been a case of the biggest and the baddest winning the land and plunder and making the rules. The United States conquest of the New World is no different. Native Indians were sitting on something that we wanted and we took it simple as that. We justified it with some manifest destiny and religious crap of converting savages. After we converted some we certainly did not accept them as equals or try and incorporate them into our Christian world.

I don't believe in any Utopian secular humanist world. I do believe that religious literalist are some of the most ignorant folks walking the planet and have been for generations.
10-22-2006 02:03 PM
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Post: #40
 
I think we're getting off topic here, and that is a lot my fault.

Just think ShoreBuc. God said King David was a "man after his own heart" and greatly favored of the Lord. He did have his weaknesses though (like most people I know) and did indirectly committ murder. But God forgave Him. He wrote most of the Psalms in the Bible. He is going to be in heaven (and I believe King Saul may be too) along with many other people--some of whom were perhaps murderers.

I guess you would never serve a God like that would you? That kind of God just isn't "human" is he?

And even though you dodged my point about King Saul, the Lord God did order him to kill every man, woman & CHILD of the amelekites. You still haven't told me what you think about that. What you think about that is what you think about God to a great degree. So, what do you think about that?
10-23-2006 11:12 PM
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