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Endzone2 Offline
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Post: #61
 
ShoreBuc Wrote:
Endzone2 Wrote:The greatest and most influential scientist who ever lived was a Christian--was he not? Of course I'm talking about Issac Newton.

He would make my list of one of the most important scientist. As far as greatest and influential that is debatable. He is also an individual not the church.

Aristotle (384 - 322 BC) - Scientific Method
Archimedes (c. 287-212 BC) - Geometry and Mechanics
Galileo Galilei ( 1564-1642) - Astronomy & Physics
William Harvey ( 1578-1657) - Phsyiology
Rene Descartes (1596-1642) - Analytic Geometry
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662) - Probability and Projective Geometry
Issac Newton (1642-1726) - Mechanics and Calculus
Karl Gauss (1777-1855) - Pure and Applied Mathmatics
Michael Faraday (1791-1867) - Electromagnetism
Charles Darwin (1809-1882) - Evolution
Evariste Galois (1811-1832) - Group theory
Gregor Mendel (1822-1884) - Genetics
Robert Koch (1843-1910) - Bacteriology
Ivan Pavlov (1849-1936) - Nueropsychology
Albert Einstein (1879-1955) - Relativity theory
Werner Heisenberg (1901-1976) - Quantum Mechanics
John Von Neumann (1903-1957) - Computer Science
Alan Turing (1912-1954) - Computer Science
Linus Pauling (1901-1994) - Chemistry
Stephen Hawking (1942- ) - Cosmology

When I was a kid in high school I was really into philosophy. I read a lot of Colin Wilson's work and this guy had read every book by every philosopher there was. He said that Newton did more for science than any man ever, and that it was hard to imagine him being human. Most of his work came in a 2 year span, and you really have to believe that a lot of it was divinely inspired. You have to be pretty sharp to invent Calculus in the 1600's. Newton made discoveries in so many areas of science.

Neither Steve Hawking nor Charles Darwin belong in that group. In fact they're both a disgrace to that group. So is Pavlov. Evariste Galois - Group Theory? Haha.
10-25-2006 10:23 PM
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Endzone2 Offline
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Post: #62
 
How did we get over here from "War on the Middle Class" BTW?
10-25-2006 10:30 PM
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SouthGAEagle Offline
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Post: #63
 
ShoreBuc Wrote:
Endzone2 Wrote:The greatest and most influential scientist who ever lived was a Christian--was he not? Of course I'm talking about Issac Newton.

He would make my list of one of the most important scientist. As far as greatest and influential that is debatable. He is also an individual not the church.

Aristotle (384 - 322 BC) - Scientific Method
Archimedes (c. 287-212 BC) - Geometry and Mechanics
Galileo Galilei ( 1564-1642) - Astronomy & Physics
William Harvey ( 1578-1657) - Phsyiology
Rene Descartes (1596-1642) - Analytic Geometry
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662) - Probability and Projective Geometry
Issac Newton (1642-1726) - Mechanics and Calculus
Karl Gauss (1777-1855) - Pure and Applied Mathmatics
Michael Faraday (1791-1867) - Electromagnetism
Charles Darwin (1809-1882) - Evolution
Evariste Galois (1811-1832) - Group theory
Gregor Mendel (1822-1884) - Genetics
Robert Koch (1843-1910) - Bacteriology
Ivan Pavlov (1849-1936) - Nueropsychology
Albert Einstein (1879-1955) - Relativity theory
Werner Heisenberg (1901-1976) - Quantum Mechanics
John Von Neumann (1903-1957) - Computer Science
Alan Turing (1912-1954) - Computer Science
Linus Pauling (1901-1994) - Chemistry
Stephen Hawking (1942- ) - Cosmology

Pretty good list... but no geologists?! 03-hissyfit 03-hissyfit 03-hissyfit 03-hissyfit

;-)

Seriously, James Hutton and/or William Smith could fit in with that group...
10-25-2006 10:46 PM
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ShoreBuc Offline
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Post: #64
 
SouthGAEagle Wrote:
ShoreBuc Wrote:
Endzone2 Wrote:The greatest and most influential scientist who ever lived was a Christian--was he not? Of course I'm talking about Issac Newton.

He would make my list of one of the most important scientist. As far as greatest and influential that is debatable. He is also an individual not the church.

Aristotle (384 - 322 BC) - Scientific Method
Archimedes (c. 287-212 BC) - Geometry and Mechanics
Galileo Galilei ( 1564-1642) - Astronomy & Physics
William Harvey ( 1578-1657) - Phsyiology
Rene Descartes (1596-1642) - Analytic Geometry
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662) - Probability and Projective Geometry
Issac Newton (1642-1726) - Mechanics and Calculus
Karl Gauss (1777-1855) - Pure and Applied Mathmatics
Michael Faraday (1791-1867) - Electromagnetism
Charles Darwin (1809-1882) - Evolution
Evariste Galois (1811-1832) - Group theory
Gregor Mendel (1822-1884) - Genetics
Robert Koch (1843-1910) - Bacteriology
Ivan Pavlov (1849-1936) - Nueropsychology
Albert Einstein (1879-1955) - Relativity theory
Werner Heisenberg (1901-1976) - Quantum Mechanics
John Von Neumann (1903-1957) - Computer Science
Alan Turing (1912-1954) - Computer Science
Linus Pauling (1901-1994) - Chemistry
Stephen Hawking (1942- ) - Cosmology

Pretty good list... but no geologists?! 03-hissyfit 03-hissyfit 03-hissyfit 03-hissyfit

;-)

Seriously, James Hutton and/or William Smith could fit in with that group...

They would make great additions. It is a difficult task to come up with the best scientist of all time with so many fields and so many contributions.
10-26-2006 06:27 AM
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Bourgeois_Rage Away
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Post: #65
 
ShoreBuc Wrote:Aristotle (384 - 322 BC) - Scientific Method
Archimedes (c. 287-212 BC) - Geometry and Mechanics
Galileo Galilei ( 1564-1642) - Astronomy & Physics
William Harvey ( 1578-1657) - Phsyiology
Rene Descartes (1596-1642) - Analytic Geometry
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662) - Probability and Projective Geometry
Issac Newton (1642-1726) - Mechanics and Calculus
Karl Gauss (1777-1855) - Pure and Applied Mathmatics
Michael Faraday (1791-1867) - Electromagnetism
Charles Darwin (1809-1882) - Evolution
Evariste Galois (1811-1832) - Group theory
Gregor Mendel (1822-1884) - Genetics
Robert Koch (1843-1910) - Bacteriology
Ivan Pavlov (1849-1936) - Nueropsychology
Albert Einstein (1879-1955) - Relativity theory
Werner Heisenberg (1901-1976) - Quantum Mechanics
John Von Neumann (1903-1957) - Computer Science
Alan Turing (1912-1954) - Computer Science
Linus Pauling (1901-1994) - Chemistry
Stephen Hawking (1942- ) - Cosmology

Nice list, off the top of my head I'd add Kepler(1571-1630) - Planetary Motion.

OptimisticOwl Wrote:How about the whole book of Job. Basically it is God and the devil betting on whether or not Job will curse God. All of his children are killed. Of course he is given more kids later, but I always thought that was a strange way to look at it. How many of you would lose all your chilren, and then if you had more, call it a wash.
I always understood Job as more of an allegory like Jonah. Do literalists actually believe these stories to be historical fact?
10-26-2006 07:15 AM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #66
 
Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:I always understood Job as more of an allegory like Jonah. Do literalists actually believe these stories to be historical fact?

Yes, to both of them. Jonah might have more archealogical evidence. Job is considered the oldest book in the Bible, and is open to debate about when and where it occurred.
10-26-2006 07:25 AM
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ShoreBuc Offline
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Post: #67
 
Endzone2 Wrote:
ShoreBuc Wrote:
Endzone2 Wrote:The greatest and most influential scientist who ever lived was a Christian--was he not? Of course I'm talking about Issac Newton.

He would make my list of one of the most important scientist. As far as greatest and influential that is debatable. He is also an individual not the church.

Aristotle (384 - 322 BC) - Scientific Method
Archimedes (c. 287-212 BC) - Geometry and Mechanics
Galileo Galilei ( 1564-1642) - Astronomy & Physics
William Harvey ( 1578-1657) - Phsyiology
Rene Descartes (1596-1642) - Analytic Geometry
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662) - Probability and Projective Geometry
Issac Newton (1642-1726) - Mechanics and Calculus
Karl Gauss (1777-1855) - Pure and Applied Mathmatics
Michael Faraday (1791-1867) - Electromagnetism
Charles Darwin (1809-1882) - Evolution
Evariste Galois (1811-1832) - Group theory
Gregor Mendel (1822-1884) - Genetics
Robert Koch (1843-1910) - Bacteriology
Ivan Pavlov (1849-1936) - Nueropsychology
Albert Einstein (1879-1955) - Relativity theory
Werner Heisenberg (1901-1976) - Quantum Mechanics
John Von Neumann (1903-1957) - Computer Science
Alan Turing (1912-1954) - Computer Science
Linus Pauling (1901-1994) - Chemistry
Stephen Hawking (1942- ) - Cosmology

When I was a kid in high school I was really into philosophy. I read a lot of Colin Wilson's work and this guy had read every book by every philosopher there was. He said that Newton did more for science than any man ever, and that it was hard to imagine him being human. Most of his work came in a 2 year span, and you really have to believe that a lot of it was divinely inspired. You have to be pretty sharp to invent Calculus in the 1600's. Newton made discoveries in so many areas of science.

Neither Steve Hawking nor Charles Darwin belong in that group. In fact they're both a disgrace to that group. So is Pavlov. Evariste Galois - Group Theory? Haha.

This list comes from a scientific article a couple years ago that was debating the top scientist of all time.
It is of course a huge debate as to who actually invented Calculus. With Newton on one side and Gottfried Leibniz on the other. What is not debatable is the fact Isaac Newton if not the greatest is definitely one of the greatest scientist of all time.
He was a very religious man and for someone who was always questioning and searching for answers I think that is natural. He was also a biblical scholar and become a textual critic. He wrote a paper on the trinity and the fact it was not a part of original scripture. He showed through his studies of ancient Biblical scriptures that the Trinity was added in Greek text in 1515 by Cardinal Ximenes. This study and the subsequent writings of Newton he of course did not publish because at the time he could of been prosecuted in England as a blasphemer.

What I take out of that is that Newton was far more knowledgeable then 99.99% of the population then and still would be today. He recognized through his study of the Bible that there had been errors in translation because of language and then changes that were just made by the church.
So that is one of the many reasons why I am not a Biblical literalist.

Sir Isaac Newton was a man of faith and at the same time he questioned that faith all the time whether it was his study of the Trinity in John or errors in Timothy. He also went way outside the bounds of the Church by his study of Astronomy, chronology and alchemy which could of got him in big trouble during his times. As respected as Newton was in his day he was still accused of being a Rosicrucian which in my humble opinion would not be a bad thing.
10-26-2006 07:35 AM
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SouthGAEagle Offline
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Post: #68
 
There was a great episode of NOVA about Isaac Newton a couple of years back... I learned a lot more about him by watching that.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/newton/
10-26-2006 09:11 AM
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Endzone2 Offline
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Post: #69
 
ShoreBuc Wrote:
Endzone2 Wrote:
ShoreBuc Wrote:
Endzone2 Wrote:The greatest and most influential scientist who ever lived was a Christian--was he not? Of course I'm talking about Issac Newton.

He would make my list of one of the most important scientist. As far as greatest and influential that is debatable. He is also an individual not the church.

Aristotle (384 - 322 BC) - Scientific Method
Archimedes (c. 287-212 BC) - Geometry and Mechanics
Galileo Galilei ( 1564-1642) - Astronomy & Physics
William Harvey ( 1578-1657) - Phsyiology
Rene Descartes (1596-1642) - Analytic Geometry
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662) - Probability and Projective Geometry
Issac Newton (1642-1726) - Mechanics and Calculus
Karl Gauss (1777-1855) - Pure and Applied Mathmatics
Michael Faraday (1791-1867) - Electromagnetism
Charles Darwin (1809-1882) - Evolution
Evariste Galois (1811-1832) - Group theory
Gregor Mendel (1822-1884) - Genetics
Robert Koch (1843-1910) - Bacteriology
Ivan Pavlov (1849-1936) - Nueropsychology
Albert Einstein (1879-1955) - Relativity theory
Werner Heisenberg (1901-1976) - Quantum Mechanics
John Von Neumann (1903-1957) - Computer Science
Alan Turing (1912-1954) - Computer Science
Linus Pauling (1901-1994) - Chemistry
Stephen Hawking (1942- ) - Cosmology

When I was a kid in high school I was really into philosophy. I read a lot of Colin Wilson's work and this guy had read every book by every philosopher there was. He said that Newton did more for science than any man ever, and that it was hard to imagine him being human. Most of his work came in a 2 year span, and you really have to believe that a lot of it was divinely inspired. You have to be pretty sharp to invent Calculus in the 1600's. Newton made discoveries in so many areas of science.

Neither Steve Hawking nor Charles Darwin belong in that group. In fact they're both a disgrace to that group. So is Pavlov. Evariste Galois - Group Theory? Haha.

This list comes from a scientific article a couple years ago that was debating the top scientist of all time.
It is of course a huge debate as to who actually invented Calculus. With Newton on one side and Gottfried Leibniz on the other. What is not debatable is the fact Isaac Newton if not the greatest is definitely one of the greatest scientist of all time.
He was a very religious man and for someone who was always questioning and searching for answers I think that is natural. He was also a biblical scholar and become a textual critic. He wrote a paper on the trinity and the fact it was not a part of original scripture. He showed through his studies of ancient Biblical scriptures that the Trinity was added in Greek text in 1515 by Cardinal Ximenes. This study and the subsequent writings of Newton he of course did not publish because at the time he could of been prosecuted in England as a blasphemer.

What I take out of that is that Newton was far more knowledgeable then 99.99% of the population then and still would be today. He recognized through his study of the Bible that there had been errors in translation because of language and then changes that were just made by the church.
So that is one of the many reasons why I am not a Biblical literalist.

Sir Isaac Newton was a man of faith and at the same time he questioned that faith all the time whether it was his study of the Trinity in John or errors in Timothy. He also went way outside the bounds of the Church by his study of Astronomy, chronology and alchemy which could of got him in big trouble during his times. As respected as Newton was in his day he was still accused of being a Rosicrucian which in my humble opinion would not be a bad thing.

When the complete book of Isaiah was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls it was almost a complete word for word translation of the same book in the King James Bible today. What more proof do you need that God is a big enough God to preserve His word in spite of what men may or may not do?

I wonder if you don't believe in the literal meaning of the Bible because of your own unbelief--not because of what may or may not have been misinterpreted. BTW, NOTHING of any even slight significance has been misinterpreted--except a lot of the late 20th century verions that were just pure speculation about a lot of versus that are difficult to understand. Needless to say, some of that speculation is wrong--especially I Samuel regarding the life of King Saul.
10-27-2006 12:17 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #70
 
Are you saying the King James Version is a perfect translation?
10-27-2006 12:25 AM
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ShoreBuc Offline
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Post: #71
 
Endzone2 Wrote:
ShoreBuc Wrote:
Endzone2 Wrote:
ShoreBuc Wrote:
Endzone2 Wrote:The greatest and most influential scientist who ever lived was a Christian--was he not? Of course I'm talking about Issac Newton.

He would make my list of one of the most important scientist. As far as greatest and influential that is debatable. He is also an individual not the church.

Aristotle (384 - 322 BC) - Scientific Method
Archimedes (c. 287-212 BC) - Geometry and Mechanics
Galileo Galilei ( 1564-1642) - Astronomy & Physics
William Harvey ( 1578-1657) - Phsyiology
Rene Descartes (1596-1642) - Analytic Geometry
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662) - Probability and Projective Geometry
Issac Newton (1642-1726) - Mechanics and Calculus
Karl Gauss (1777-1855) - Pure and Applied Mathmatics
Michael Faraday (1791-1867) - Electromagnetism
Charles Darwin (1809-1882) - Evolution
Evariste Galois (1811-1832) - Group theory
Gregor Mendel (1822-1884) - Genetics
Robert Koch (1843-1910) - Bacteriology
Ivan Pavlov (1849-1936) - Nueropsychology
Albert Einstein (1879-1955) - Relativity theory
Werner Heisenberg (1901-1976) - Quantum Mechanics
John Von Neumann (1903-1957) - Computer Science
Alan Turing (1912-1954) - Computer Science
Linus Pauling (1901-1994) - Chemistry
Stephen Hawking (1942- ) - Cosmology

When I was a kid in high school I was really into philosophy. I read a lot of Colin Wilson's work and this guy had read every book by every philosopher there was. He said that Newton did more for science than any man ever, and that it was hard to imagine him being human. Most of his work came in a 2 year span, and you really have to believe that a lot of it was divinely inspired. You have to be pretty sharp to invent Calculus in the 1600's. Newton made discoveries in so many areas of science.

Neither Steve Hawking nor Charles Darwin belong in that group. In fact they're both a disgrace to that group. So is Pavlov. Evariste Galois - Group Theory? Haha.

This list comes from a scientific article a couple years ago that was debating the top scientist of all time.
It is of course a huge debate as to who actually invented Calculus. With Newton on one side and Gottfried Leibniz on the other. What is not debatable is the fact Isaac Newton if not the greatest is definitely one of the greatest scientist of all time.
He was a very religious man and for someone who was always questioning and searching for answers I think that is natural. He was also a biblical scholar and become a textual critic. He wrote a paper on the trinity and the fact it was not a part of original scripture. He showed through his studies of ancient Biblical scriptures that the Trinity was added in Greek text in 1515 by Cardinal Ximenes. This study and the subsequent writings of Newton he of course did not publish because at the time he could of been prosecuted in England as a blasphemer.

What I take out of that is that Newton was far more knowledgeable then 99.99% of the population then and still would be today. He recognized through his study of the Bible that there had been errors in translation because of language and then changes that were just made by the church.
So that is one of the many reasons why I am not a Biblical literalist.

Sir Isaac Newton was a man of faith and at the same time he questioned that faith all the time whether it was his study of the Trinity in John or errors in Timothy. He also went way outside the bounds of the Church by his study of Astronomy, chronology and alchemy which could of got him in big trouble during his times. As respected as Newton was in his day he was still accused of being a Rosicrucian which in my humble opinion would not be a bad thing.

When the complete book of Isaiah was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls it was almost a complete word for word translation of the same book in the King James Bible today. What more proof do you need that God is a big enough God to preserve His word in spite of what men may or may not do?

I wonder if you don't believe in the literal meaning of the Bible because of your own unbelief--not because of what may or may not have been misinterpreted. BTW, NOTHING of any even slight significance has been misinterpreted--except a lot of the late 20th century verions that were just pure speculation about a lot of versus that are difficult to understand. Needless to say, some of that speculation is wrong--especially I Samuel regarding the life of King Saul.

Sounds to me like you are letting your belief system exclude any thought of error in the Bible. I would suggest you read Misquoting Jesus The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why.
The Author Bart D. Ehrman is not some agnostic or atheist cook. He chairs the Department of Religious Studies at UNC. Not my favorite school but his credentials and knowledge of the Bible are without question.

He went to Moody Bible School in Chicago which is like a Bible boot camp if you want to learn the Bible. He followed that up with Wheaton College in Chicago which is where Billy Grahmam graduated.
It was there he learned to speek Greek to help his studies of the Bible and Hebrew.
His journey into being a textual critic started with something as simple as realizing a passage in Mark 2 where Jesus is confronted by the Pharisees because his disciples had been walking through a grain field eating the grain on the Sabbath. In this story Jesus quotes I Sam 21:1-6 of the OT and talks about what King David did to feed his men by going into the Temple when Abiathar was the high priest.
The problem is David did this not when Abiathar was the high priest but when Abiathars father Ahimelech was. Just one of those little mistakes that has occured in the translation of the Bible. For a Biblical literalist like Ehrman though it made him realize that if there was one mistake then why should he believe that there were no more mistakes.
This opened the flood gates and he started to question bigger things like why Mark says Jesus was crucified the day after the Passover meal was eaten and John says he died the day before it was eaten. Or when Luke indicates in his account of Jesus's birth that Joseph and Mary returned to Nazareth just over a month after they had come to Bethlehem whereas Matthew indicates they instead fled to Egypt.
Or when Paul says that after he converted on the way to Damascus he did not go to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before him Gal I:16-17 whereas the book of Acts says that was the first thing he did after leaving Damascus Acts 9:26

A little bigger addition would be the story that all of us grew up and that is Jesus and the woman taken in adultery. This of course in John7:53-8:12
We were all taught this story of he who is without sin cast the first stone. Problem is it was not originally a part of John or part of any of the Gospels. It was added by later scribes. How do the textual critics know this? The story is not found in our oldest and best manuscripts of the Gospel of John, its writing style is very different from what we find in the rest of John(including the stories immediately before and after) and it includes a large number of words and phrases that are otherwise alien to the Gospel.
Ehrman points out a good point of the story itself as well. If the woman was caught in the act of adultery then where is the man?? His offense is just as great as her's under the Mosaic laws. And even if Jesus did teach a message of love, did he really think that the Law of God given by Moses was no longer in force and should not be obeyed? Did he think sins should not be punished at all??
It is also noteworthy that scribes inserted the adultery story in different location in the NT. Some of them after John 21:25 and others after Luke 21:38

A bigger example of an addition is the last twelve verses of Mark. In the earliest and best manuscripts of the Gospels the story in Mark ends with But the women flee the tomb and say nothing to anyone for they were afraid 16:4-8
I am sure you are aware of the last twelve passages of Mark and without those it definitely changes the nature of the story and the message of Jesus.
In the field of textual criticism it is generally agreed that there are at least 80,000 errors in the King James version of the Bible compared to the earliest known copies of Gospels.

We already discussed in this thread that Sir Isaac Newton himself through his research of historical biblical text found that the Trinity story was added to the Bible in 1515 by Cardinal Ximenes. We can't deny that Newton was a devout holy man and intelligent man and I think you would agree that the Trinity is an important part of the Bible and Christianity.

Ehraman's Book Misquoting Jesus is a great read for anybody who studies the Bible and has interest in it. For the faitful it explains how the gospels were written and by who and which copies represent our best manscripts today since there are no originals. There is a huge field of study to determine which copies are the best.

So Endzone for me it is not a matter of faith. I have faith in what I believe in but I always question man and it is man who is responsible for the development of the Bible we know today and mainly the Roman Empire and the Holy Roman Catholic Church. I definitely question both of those because I have studied them enough to know they deserve questioning at every turn.
10-27-2006 07:12 AM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #72
 
ShoreBuc Wrote:Sounds to me like you are letting your belief system exclude any thought of error in the Bible. I would suggest you read Misquoting Jesus The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why.
The Author Bart D. Ehrman is not some agnostic or atheist cook. He chairs the Department of Religious Studies at UNC. Not my favorite school but his credentials and knowledge of the Bible are without question.

He went to Moody Bible School in Chicago which is like a Bible boot camp if you want to learn the Bible. He followed that up with Wheaton College in Chicago which is where Billy Grahmam graduated.

Wheaton College blows. Maybe it was alright when Ehrman was there, but it hasn't been "Christian" in 20+ years.

My pastor mentioned Ehrman's works a few weeks back. He didn't cut on him by any stretch, but he doesn't agree w/ much that he says.
I think the gist was that even Ehrman ripped apart the "support" for The Davinci Code.

Sorry for the interruption, but the facts about Wheaton need to be made known.
10-27-2006 07:22 AM
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Post: #73
 
DrTorch Wrote:
ShoreBuc Wrote:Sounds to me like you are letting your belief system exclude any thought of error in the Bible. I would suggest you read Misquoting Jesus The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why.
The Author Bart D. Ehrman is not some agnostic or atheist cook. He chairs the Department of Religious Studies at UNC. Not my favorite school but his credentials and knowledge of the Bible are without question.

He went to Moody Bible School in Chicago which is like a Bible boot camp if you want to learn the Bible. He followed that up with Wheaton College in Chicago which is where Billy Grahmam graduated.

Wheaton College blows. Maybe it was alright when Ehrman was there, but it hasn't been "Christian" in 20+ years.

My pastor mentioned Ehrman's works a few weeks back. He didn't cut on him by any stretch, but he doesn't agree w/ much that he says.
I think the gist was that even Ehrman ripped apart the "support" for The Davinci Code.

Sorry for the interruption, but the facts about Wheaton need to be made known.

No problem. Ehrman mentions in his book that when he left the Moody Bible Institute that he might have trouble finding real Christians at Wheaton which shows how fundamentalist Moody was.
He talks about how when he got there he found it to be very Liberal for his tastes.
Ehrman as a Biblical Historian did rip apart the Da Vinci Code for it's flat our historical errors. He does a great job in his book of seperating Historical fact from literary fiction.

You can disagree with Ehrman and his findings but the study itself is fascinating. As a Historian myself and a Christian I look to the study of Christianity as doing research on my family. To only look at the Roman Catholic Church and their version of Christianity that came from Emperor Constantine and the Council of Nicea is like only looking up the blood line of one family member.

To understand Christianity and where we came from you have to also look at the three major variants of Christianity. The Ebionites, the Marcinonites and the Gnostics.
The Ebonites were these Jewish Christians who emphasized the importance of being Jewish as well as Christian. The Marcionites were anti-Jewish and believed that all things Jewish actually belong to the god of the Old Testament, who was not the true God. The Gnostics held to the belief that therre were a number of different gods.
All these groups claimed to go back to Jesus. The Ebionites claim that their teachings were derived from James the Just, who was the brother of Jesus, and who better to know what Jesus taught than his own brother?
Their faith did not spread widely, however, perhaps in part because their belief that people who were Gentiles had to become Jewish to be Christian meant that men had to become circumcised, which means they probably didnt win too many converts.

The Marcinonites were followers of the mid second century Greek Philosopher and teacher Marcion who had spent about five years in Rome working out his Theological system. He believed the apostle Paul had the true insight into Christianity because Paul differentiated between the law and the Gospel. Marcion believed there must of been two seperate God's. The God who gave the law was the god of the OT whereas the god who saved people from the law is the god of Jesus. Similarly the wrathful god of the OT is the god who created this world and chose Israel and gave them his law, whereas the god of Jesus is the one who saves people from this god by dying for their sins.
Marcion was a real threat to Roman Christianity and had a huge following even after he was excommunicated. He went to Asia Minor to establish churches.
The Gnostic version of Christianity is probably the best known variation. It is based on the Eastern Mystery religions and treats Christ like one in the long line of Pagan God Men who was born of virgin birth was crucified and was ressurected three days later. The Gnostics believed that this material world we live in is a cosmic catastrophe and that somehow sparks of the divine have become entrapped in this material world and need to escape, and they can escape when they acquire true knowledge of their situation. The Gnostic system provides them with the knowledge they need for escape, so salvation comes by getting the true knowledge necessary for salvation.
Gnostics are definitely from the line of Pagan mystery religions that were so prevelant in the near east at the time stretching form Alexandria up to Greece and Rome.
We now have a better understanding of the Gnostics with the 1945 discovery at Nag hammadi of the Gospels of Philip, texts recording the acts of Peter and the 12 disciples, apolcalypses attributed to Paul and James as well as other new relgious texts.

The Roman Catholic Church made every attempt to stamp out the different versions once Constantine selected Christianity as the offical religion of the Empire. Eventhough only 18 years prior they had selected Mithraism. The transition was not too tough for Roman citizens because Mithra was born of a virgin, with only a number of shepherds present. Mithras was known as the Way, the Truth, the Light, the Life, the Word, the Son of God and the Good Shepherd. He was pictured carrying a lamb on his shoulders. Sunday was sacred and known as the Lords Day. He was celebrated on December 25 with bells, candles, gifts, hymns and communion . From December 25 until spring equinox Estra(Easter) for 40 days which later became Christian Lent. Mithras was placed in a rock tomb called Petra (Peter). After three days he was removed with giant celebrations, festival and great joy.
The followers of Mithras believed there would be a day of judgement when non believers would perish and believers would live in heaven or paradise (a Persian word) forever and ever.

I know some find this troubling but I find it fascinating. Whether you believe we all decended from Adam or Eve or through evolution, either way we are all related. So I like to study my ancestors and learn from them. Part of that learning for me is also seeing how they approached faith and questioning the world around us. We have always sought answers to the things we do not understand. Well there are still plenty of things I do not understand so I still have plenty of questions.
For some of you, your faith alone is answer enough and I can respect that.
As for me I have faith but still have a lot of questions and I do not see that as a weakness but as a strength. To each his own.
10-27-2006 08:31 AM
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Great post, ShoreBuc.
10-27-2006 09:38 AM
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Endzone2 Offline
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Post: #75
 
Quote:So Endzone for me it is not a matter of faith. I have faith in what I believe in but I always question man and it is man who is responsible for the development of the Bible we know today and mainly the Roman Empire and the Holy Roman Catholic Church. I definitely question both of those because I have studied them enough to know they deserve questioning at every turn.

Yes, this is where you and I disagree. I see no contradictions in the Bible. We do not know everything about the life of Jesus. The Bible says all the books in the world couldn't contain the stories of all the good things He did. Also, the Bible says all scripture is given by God. I believe God is a big enough God to preserve His word. Man is not primarily responsible for the devlopment of the Bible as you say. The Bible says it was men of God who wrote as they were inspired by the Holy Ghost.

You have very little faith in the God that we Christians worship. And like all evolutionist, you can't bear the thought of God actually ruling in the affairs of your life and so you let your imagination run wild with what you think is the truth. In short, you're just having too good of a time indulging your flesh to submit to God. And you think you're smarter than He is and especially those deluded people who wrote the Old and New Testaments. I went through this phase of my life very quickly that you seem to be going through--that your thoughts are what rules your life rather than being humbly submitted to God in faith. I read all kinds of philosophy. I eventually chucked it all (bye the time I was 20) and began to see the Lord Jesus with all my might.

The thing that amazes me is why some people hang onto their imaginations for so long before they are finally willing to hear the truth. I guess Satan (the god of this world) has indeed blinded their minds. I'll leave you with this verse (can't remember exactly where the passage is), and I'm sure you wont like it, but here goes:

If any man thinks he is wise, let him become a fool that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. As it is written, he taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
10-28-2006 12:56 AM
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ShoreBuc Offline
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Post: #76
 
I am glad you everything all figured out 03-yawn If you want to live in a delusional world that you believe the Bible and the scriptures inserted are infallable and were not corrupted by the scribes who copied the copies and the Roman Catholic Church and Roman Empire which determined a lot of its content then you go ahead and operate in that fantasy world.

I guess Satan is talking to me. He must be busy because out of the 6.5 Billion people on this planet only 2.1 billion are Christian. Right off the bat you have 4.4 Billion folks who currently reside on this planet who are destined to spend eternity in Hell. Take out all the bad Christians who are raping little kids, cheating on their wives and husbands, stealing etc..
I guess at the end of the day God will be lucky to get about 1 Billion folks on our planet today into Heaven and that is probably being very optimistic.

Like any good parent he is going to write the rest of us off and send us to a horrible existence of burning in hell forever. So when you get to Heaven enjoy your private little club.

I would never turn my back on my children but I guess God has no problem not only turning his back on a majority of his children but also punishing his children with something as awful as eternal damnation. Most of these folks burning in hell forever will be there suffering for the sin of just the random birth in a demographical and geographical area of the Earth where Christianity is just not feasible. You have already told me that life is not random and that God rules in the affairs of our life. I have to assume then that God places his children all over this planet including areas where Christianity is not accepted and not practiced. So these children will burn in Hell forever for not accepting Jesus Christ. Do you think they ever had a chance??

Again I will have to say that as a parent God needs some work.
10-28-2006 08:08 AM
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Post: #77
 
Endzone2 Wrote:Also, the Bible says all scripture is given by God.

It seems Endzone is unable to see the problem with this statementt. But just the other day, i broke open a fortune cookie and the paper inside said that everything on the paper inside was inspired by God. Therefore it is proven, God speaks to us through fortune cookies. Apparently God says i will get an unexpected gift from a friend. Also, my lucky numbers are 4, 8, 15, 16, 23, and 48.
10-28-2006 01:55 PM
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Endzone2 Offline
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Post: #78
 
ShoreBuc Wrote:I am glad you everything all figured out 03-yawn If you want to live in a delusional world that you believe the Bible and the scriptures inserted are infallable and were not corrupted by the scribes who copied the copies and the Roman Catholic Church and Roman Empire which determined a lot of its content then you go ahead and operate in that fantasy world.

I guess Satan is talking to me. He must be busy because out of the 6.5 Billion people on this planet only 2.1 billion are Christian. Right off the bat you have 4.4 Billion folks who currently reside on this planet who are destined to spend eternity in Hell. Take out all the bad Christians who are raping little kids, cheating on their wives and husbands, stealing etc..
I guess at the end of the day God will be lucky to get about 1 Billion folks on our planet today into Heaven and that is probably being very optimistic.

Like any good parent he is going to write the rest of us off and send us to a horrible existence of burning in hell forever. So when you get to Heaven enjoy your private little club.

I would never turn my back on my children but I guess God has no problem not only turning his back on a majority of his children but also punishing his children with something as awful as eternal damnation. Most of these folks burning in hell forever will be there suffering for the sin of just the random birth in a demographical and geographical area of the Earth where Christianity is just not feasible. You have already told me that life is not random and that God rules in the affairs of our life. I have to assume then that God places his children all over this planet including areas where Christianity is not accepted and not practiced. So these children will burn in Hell forever for not accepting Jesus Christ. Do you think they ever had a chance??

Again I will have to say that as a parent God needs some work.

Well ShoreBuc, the really bad news is that 3/4ths of the really hot available women are not available to us single Christian guys because they aren't Christians. Life just isn't fair is it?
10-29-2006 02:50 PM
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