OptimisticOwl Wrote:

GrayBeard Wrote:

OptimisticOwl Wrote:First, I think the guy on the island goes to hell. Why? Well, in the Bible, which some of you taake as absolute authority, it says you must believe, repent and be baptized. At least that is what I remember from my Church of Christ upbringing.

BUT, a lot of you are basing everything on the Bible - you are what i call Biblists - your faith is rooted in faith in the Bible, only through that faith to Jesus and God. And I think the Bible is a mighty poor artifact on which to base one's faith. If you include the Old testament, it was written over a period of thousands of years by dozens of writers in several languages. If you look at the new Testament only, it was written over hundreds of years by dozens of men, some still unidentified, and in several languages. Then these books and letters were collected. Who decided what was in and what was out? Why is the Gospel of Judas and the Book of Thomas excluded? There was a lot of horse-trading in the formation of the Bible, as in "I will vote for III Chronicles if you will vote for Revelations". So some books were included/excluded by narrow votes. Then those various languages have to be translated, a tricky job at best. Some people believe only the King James Version is God-inspired, the rest...., well, not.
Now lets interpret those words using a 2005 dictionary. Then let's tell everyone this is the absolute truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, etc., as we have interpreted it. I don't buy it.

I find it hard to have faith in the Bible. I find it easy to have faith in God. Which God? well, for sure not the God of Islam. The God I believe in wouldn't condone the murder of small children through bus bombings.

I have been Church of Christ, atheist, agnostic, Disciples of Christ, Methodist, and a deacon. I have looked into Buddism and Islam. I have no idea what will happen when I die, and neither do you.

It is obvious that you do not have a relationship with God. The Bible is God Breathed, and as such, it doesn't matter what earthly hand was holding the pen because God was what was guiding it. I don't worship the Bible, but I do worship the God of the Bible and thus we come to this...

Quote:John 1: 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.

Hmmm...Kind of ties it all together.

so the Bible is the Word of God because the Bible says so? I have a document right here that says I am the next prophet. Good enough for you?

I can see why you would be skeptical, but if you had ever experienced God, you would understand why I beleive that way. God is trying to get your attention now! Listen to him.

GrayBeard Wrote:

OptimisticOwl Wrote:

GrayBeard Wrote:

OptimisticOwl Wrote:First, I think the guy on the island goes to hell. Why? Well, in the Bible, which some of you taake as absolute authority, it says you must believe, repent and be baptized. At least that is what I remember from my Church of Christ upbringing.

BUT, a lot of you are basing everything on the Bible - you are what i call Biblists - your faith is rooted in faith in the Bible, only through that faith to Jesus and God. And I think the Bible is a mighty poor artifact on which to base one's faith. If you include the Old testament, it was written over a period of thousands of years by dozens of writers in several languages. If you look at the new Testament only, it was written over hundreds of years by dozens of men, some still unidentified, and in several languages. Then these books and letters were collected. Who decided what was in and what was out? Why is the Gospel of Judas and the Book of Thomas excluded? There was a lot of horse-trading in the formation of the Bible, as in "I will vote for III Chronicles if you will vote for Revelations". So some books were included/excluded by narrow votes. Then those various languages have to be translated, a tricky job at best. Some people believe only the King James Version is God-inspired, the rest...., well, not.
Now lets interpret those words using a 2005 dictionary. Then let's tell everyone this is the absolute truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, etc., as we have interpreted it. I don't buy it.

I find it hard to have faith in the Bible. I find it easy to have faith in God. Which God? well, for sure not the God of Islam. The God I believe in wouldn't condone the murder of small children through bus bombings.

I have been Church of Christ, atheist, agnostic, Disciples of Christ, Methodist, and a deacon. I have looked into Buddism and Islam. I have no idea what will happen when I die, and neither do you.

It is obvious that you do not have a relationship with God. The Bible is God Breathed, and as such, it doesn't matter what earthly hand was holding the pen because God was what was guiding it. I don't worship the Bible, but I do worship the God of the Bible and thus we come to this...

Quote:John 1: 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.

Hmmm...Kind of ties it all together.

so the Bible is the Word of God because the Bible says so? I have a document right here that says I am the next prophet. Good enough for you?

I can see why you would be skeptical, but if you had ever experienced God, you would understand why I beleive that way. God is trying to get your attention now! Listen to him.

lLet's see here. I don't see it your way, so I don't have a relationship with God, because if I did, I would see it your way. You might as well just call me an unbeliever, an infidel, and cut off my head.

You must believe inthe power of prayer. It's easy - either you get what you want or God says "no". 100% results by definition.

Explain this to me: a few years ago the son of a friend was riding in a car with five other teenagers. The car left the road and caught fire. Only my friends son (call him Joe) got out, by crawling through the shattered real window. Four kids died in the fire, one died in agoany 5 weeks later. Only Joe survived. My friend told me that he believed that God reached into the car and pulled Joe to safety. I wondered (not out loud, of course), well if that is true why did God leave the other five? If he wanted them dead, why give them such a horrible death? Why make one last five weeks in agony? You have the answers. Tell me.

Quote: Explain this to me: a few years ago the son of a friend was riding in a car with five other teenagers. The car left the road and caught fire. Only my friends son (call him Joe) got out, by crawling through the shattered real window. Four kids died in the fire, one died in agoany 5 weeks later. Only Joe survived. My friend told me that he believed that God reached into the car and pulled Joe to safety. I wondered (not out loud, of course), well if that is true why did God leave the other five? If he wanted them dead, why give them such a horrible death? Why make one last five weeks in agony? You have the answers. Tell me.

The crux of the question is of course why do bad things happen to good people. My answer would be I don

OptimisticOwl Wrote:lLet's see here. I don't see it your way, so I don't have a relationship with God, because if I did, I would see it your way. You might as well just call me an unbeliever, an infidel, and cut off my head.

You must believe inthe power of prayer. It's easy - either you get what you want or God says "no". 100% results by definition.

Explain this to me: a few years ago the son of a friend was riding in a car with five other teenagers. The car left the road and caught fire. Only my friends son (call him Joe) got out, by crawling through the shattered real window. Four kids died in the fire, one died in agoany 5 weeks later. Only Joe survived. My friend told me that he believed that God reached into the car and pulled Joe to safety. I wondered (not out loud, of course), well if that is true why did God leave the other five? If he wanted them dead, why give them such a horrible death? Why make one last five weeks in agony? You have the answers. Tell me.

The "You don't have a relationship with God" comment was based on you bouncing around between different religions, not because you don't believe in what I beleive in. I do get the feeling that you are searching, or you were searching. I pray that one day you see God for who he is and what he did for you.

It is not for me to explain or understand the ways of God. I do not know if God saved your friend's son from death. If he did, then God would have a reason for doing that.

Hewbrews 9:27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Everyone is destined to die. The time and place is not of our choosing. Some people die a painful and miserable death, and some spend eternity in misery. It is our choice as to where we go for eternity.

Quote:Just look at the new scripts found recently that tell a completely different tale of Jesus's relationship with Judas.

Who could have written that? Couldn't be Judas. He was dead when Jesus rose, and the scriptures fulfilled. It's not like Judas could have had disciples that learned directly from him.

St Iranaeus of Lyons in 180 wrote:

Quote:Adversus Haereses (Book I, Chapter 31)

Doctrines of the Cainites

1. Others again declare that Cain derived his being from the Power above, and acknowledge that Esau, Korah, the Sodomites, and all such persons, are related to themselves. On this account, they add, they have been assailed by the Creator, yet no one of them has suffered injury. For Sophia was in the habit of carrying off that which belonged to her from them to herself. They declare that Judas the traitor was thoroughly acquainted with these things, and that he alone, knowing the truth as no others did, accomplished the mystery of the betrayal; by him all things, both earthly and heavenly, were thus thrown into confusion. They produce a fictitious history of this kind, which they style the Gospel of Judas.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103131.htm


The "gospel of Judas" is not new, and is Christian as the other Gnostic gospels.

Christianity was MUCH more diverse in Iranaeus's time than it is now. It was soon thereafter that many Christians were put to death by other Christians because they believed a different "flavour" of Christianity. You know, kind of like the Shiites and the Sunnis. But I digress...

If you pick up the scriptures found at Nag Hammadi, you'll find a selection of several scriptures which were branded "heresy" by Ireanaeus and those who came after him. Does that make them false? Well, Martin Luther was a heretic. Does that make all protestant paths false?

Again, it goes back to all of us losing the ARROGANCE of religion (yes, I'm talking to you, Grey Beard) and acknowledging that WE DO NOT KNOW.

We have ideas. We have faith. But we don't know for certain, and we shouldn't be fighting and killing each other over it.

Oh, and for the anti-Muslim comments here: How is what they're doing now any different from Christians condoning slavery; instigating witch hunts, trials, burnings and hangings; Crusades; Fred Phelps; and the Klan?

The answer is simple: One looks like us and is on "our side" and the other doesn't and isn't.

Sophandros Wrote:Christianity was MUCH more diverse in Iranaeus's time than it is now. It was soon thereafter that many Christians were put to death by other Christians because they believed a different "flavour" of Christianity. You know, kind of like the Shiites and the Sunnis. But I digress...

If you pick up the scriptures found at Nag Hammadi, you'll find a selection of several scriptures which were branded "heresy" by Ireanaeus and those who came after him. Does that make them false? Well, Martin Luther was a heretic. Does that make all protestant paths false?

Again, it goes back to all of us losing the ARROGANCE of religion (yes, I'm talking to you, Grey Beard) and acknowledging that WE DO NOT KNOW.

We have ideas. We have faith. But we don't know for certain, and we shouldn't be fighting and killing each other over it.

Oh, and for the anti-Muslim comments here: How is what they're doing now any different from Christians condoning slavery; instigating witch hunts, trials, burnings and hangings; Crusades; Fred Phelps; and the Klan?

The answer is simple: One looks like us and is on "our side" and the other doesn't and isn't.

Many of the things that you bring up are not the acts of Christianity, but the perversion of Christianity. There is the difference, but I don't expect a militant like yourself to even think about that. You would rather blame all Christians for things that have happened, just as you blame all white men for slavery and racism.

I know for certain what is going to happen to me upon death because I have complete faith in the One True God. You may be uncertain, but I am not.

Sophandros Wrote:If you pick up the scriptures found at Nag Hammadi, you'll find a selection of several scriptures which were branded "heresy" by Ireanaeus and those who came after him. Does that make them false? Well, Martin Luther was a heretic. Does that make all protestant paths false?

I had a typo, I meant to say:

The "gospel of Judas" is not new, and is AS Christian as the other Gnostic gospels.

Meaning, they're not.

Well, guys, the arguements of skeptics and men of faith are doomed to fail, it is as if they are speaking different languages.

The tale of Joe was told because his father KNEW that God saved his son. That was his faith, his relationship with God, but did it have any validity? I think not. I wonder what Joe's Dad would have said if Lisa was saved and Joe died.

I respect your faith(s), just not the Biblical basis for them. I do have a realtionship with God, it is just not one that you guys would recognize. I have made the best sense I can of the world and God.

If indeed there is one way to Heaven and all others go to eternal torment, somebody who is positive they have the answers will be surprised on judgement day.

Now to close with a little humor, which I hope will offend nobody. The Pope's secretary comes to him and says, "I have good news and bad news, your Holiness". The Pope says give me the news news first. "Jesus Christ has returned and is on the telephone wanting to speak with you". The Pope says, "That is great news, what could be better? Tell me, what is the bad news?" "He's calling from Salt Lake City."

OptimisticOwl Wrote:Now to close with a little humor, which I hope will offend nobody. The Pope's secretary comes to him and says, "I have good news and bad news, your Holiness". The Pope says give me the news news first. "Jesus Christ has returned and is on the telephone wanting to speak with you". The Pope says, "That is great news, what could be better? Tell me, what is the bad news?" "He's calling from Salt Lake City."

lmfao Good One! lmfao

How did Joe's dad KNOW that God saved his son? Did God tell him, or did he just assume that since everyone else was killed that it must have been God that saved his son?

(On other thread yeah i'm having some problems with the site too)

Tulsaman Wrote:(On other thread yeah i'm having some problems with the site too)

I can't open any new threads. I get a server error every time, and if I hit the back button, my computer locks up.

A man dies and goes up to Heaven. When he arrives St. Peter welcomes him and starts to show him around. As they

GrayBeard Wrote:I can't open any new threads. I get a server error every time, and if I hit the back button, my computer locks up.

Maybe Somebody is angry with you for starting this thread...

OwlJacket Wrote:

GrayBeard Wrote:I can't open any new threads. I get a server error every time, and if I hit the back button, my computer locks up.

Maybe Somebody is angry with you for starting this thread...

And who might that Somebody be? GTS?

GrayBeard Wrote:And who might that Somebody be? GTS?

Maybe Somebody who didn't preach intolerance? GTS is another possibility...

All this computer stuff and server malfunctioning is way too complex for me to understand - therefore it must be orchestrated by a higher power. It's my Intelligent Design Theory of Computer Repair.

OwlJacket Wrote:

GrayBeard Wrote:And who might that Somebody be? GTS?

Maybe Somebody who didn't preach intolerance? GTS is another possibility...

All this computer stuff and server malfunctioning is way too complex for me to understand - therefore it must be orchestrated by a higher power. It's my Intelligent Design Theory of Computer Repair.

Trying to change the subject of the thread? If you want to start an evolution thread, be my guest.

Sophandros Wrote:Oh, and for the anti-Muslim comments here: How is what they're doing now any different from Christians condoning slavery; instigating witch hunts, trials, burnings and hangings; Crusades; Fred Phelps; and the Klan?

One big difference: the Muslims are doing most of this stuff NOW, the Christians did it long ago. If religions evolve, I would say that Islam is about 600 years behind Christianity. Compare what Christianity was doing 600 years ago.

Remember, the Muslims had their own forcible expansion, into Spain, for example. And they were slave traders too - see history of Zanzibar,

GrayBeard Wrote:

OptimisticOwl Wrote:Now to close with a little humor, which I hope will offend nobody. The Pope's secretary comes to him and says, "I have good news and bad news, your Holiness". The Pope says give me the news news first. "Jesus Christ has returned and is on the telephone wanting to speak with you". The Pope says, "That is great news, what could be better? Tell me, what is the bad news?" "He's calling from Salt Lake City."

lmfao Good One! lmfao

How did Joe's dad KNOW that God saved his son? Did God tell him, or did he just assume that since everyone else was killed that it must have been God that saved his son?

I guess the same way some people KNOW they are going to Heaven, or some people KNOW the Bible is inerrant: he had faith that it was God's hand.

Ninerfan1 Wrote:[quote="Sophandros"]If you look at religion as man's attempt to get closer to God (for ease of conversation, I'll use this term), then by definition, all must have validity.

I would disagree with this because it doesn't account for the view that God has given us the way in which we can do that. For Christians it's the Bible, for Muslims the Quran, for Jews the Torah and so on. If you read each of these they outline how one can be closer to God, and all are different in how that occurs. Each believe their "word" is from God, and because they are so different, they can't all be valid.

The Christian says Christ is the only way to heaven
The Muslim says you have to be Muslim
Judiasm varies depending on what sect you look at, conservative would say you must be Jewish, more liberal would say it's open and you can be something else.

All can't be right.

Quote:If God is omnipotent and omniscient, then it stands to reason that God speaks to all of us differently.

I would agree. However if you continue forward with your line of reasoning in those communications God wouldn