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Interesting new look at the 2nd Amendment
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T-Monay820 Offline
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Interesting new look at the 2nd Amendment
WHOSE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS? By James J. Kilpatrick

In a moment of uncharacteristic ebullience, William Gladstone described the American Constitution in 1878 as "the most wonderful work ever struck off at a given time by the brain and purpose of man." Like many contemporary commentators, the prime minister had given too little thought to the Constitution's Second Amendment.

If the Supreme Court agrees to hear a pending appeal in a New York case, that neglect may soon be addressed. The amendment reads, as every schoolboy knows:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

A Virginia lawyer, David D. Bach of Virginia Beach, has embarked upon a personal quest to clarify the murky language of our Founding Fathers. He brings impeccable credentials to a difficult task. He has served for 25 years as an officer in the Naval Reserve, including 12 years of active duty as a Navy SEAL. He returned recently from a tour of duty in Iraq. He's now attached to the Navy's Office of General Counsel.

Bach is a citizen of Virginia. He frequently drives with his wife and children to visit his parents in upstate New York. The long trip takes him through areas where brigands reasonably may be anticipated. He wants to be armed and prepared. Wholly apart from his sense of potential peril is his conviction that he has a constitutional right to bear arms. He long ago obtained a license to carry a handgun in Virginia, but when he applied for a similar permit in New York, he hit a stone wall. His repeated applications were repeatedly denied. Nine months ago, a panel of the U.S. 2nd Circuit unanimously upheld the state's unfriendly law.

Bach's appeal to the Supreme Court presents interesting questions of constitutional law. Gladstone's after-dinner encomium was mostly hooey. Our beloved Constitution is riddled with ambiguities, inchoate provisions, chameleon clauses. As a die-cut legal document, it is hardly wonderful at all. Constitutionally speaking, pray tell, what's a privilege? What's an immunity?

More to the point, what is this "right of the people to keep and bear arms"? The phrase dangles clumsily off the end of a poorly punctuated platitude. Chief Justice Warren Earl Burger once said that the amendment must be read as if it began, "Because a well-regulated militia is necessary," and so forth. Today's jurists must struggle with the relevance of the opening words.

For starters, it is unclear whether the Second Amendment applies only to federal authority and not to the separate states at all. Almost all the other original amendments to the Bill of Rights have been incorporated into the familial concept of "due process," but the Second has been an orphan at least since Presser v. Illinois in 1886. The case involved an Illinois activist, Herman Presser, who organized his own militia company of 400 armed men. When he put them on parade one September in Chicago, the mayor ordered him arrested. He claimed rights under the Second Amendment, but a unanimous Supreme Court upheld the city's ordinance.

Presser and his $10 fine are long forgotten, but the precedent lingers on. Judge Richard C. Wesley cited the case at some length in ruling against Bach in the 2nd Circuit. The 1886 opinion, he said, continues to stand for the proposition "that the right of the people to keep and bear arms, whatever else its nature, is a right only against the federal government, not against the states." He cited confirming cases in four of the 12 federal circuits. The 5th and 9th circuits have gone the other way. The 9th Circuit regards the old Presser opinion as "thoroughly discredited," but clearly it hangs on.

Judge Wesley also ruled against Bach's argument that New York's law violates the Constitution's privileges-and-immunities clause. The law does indeed discriminate against out-of-staters in their right to travel, but the state's ban supports a substantial interest in monitoring the licensing of guns. In any event, the old Presser case remains controlling. Neither the Second Amendment nor the famous P&I clause can overcome New York's power to regulate the licensing of firearms.

My own sympathies lie with David Bach, a solid citizen who poses no known risk to the people of New York. My love for "states' rights" pulls me in the other direction. New York's law may be unreasonably restrictive, but that is for New York to say.
02-08-2006 08:37 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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Funny how the court is suddenly for "states' rights" on this particular issue. They trample on that notion regularly. It's even more ironic given how clear the language is. Citizens have the right to bear arms.
02-09-2006 08:32 AM
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Tulsaman Offline
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Post: #3
 
DrTorch Wrote:Citizens have the right to bear arms.

It says the militia can bear arms. (If you take it in its strictest sense)
02-09-2006 09:24 AM
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Post: #4
 
Tulsaman Wrote:
DrTorch Wrote:Citizens have the right to bear arms.

It says the militia can bear arms. (If you take it in its strictest sense)


...and who the hell was the "militia"?
02-09-2006 09:31 AM
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Why is it that liberals ALWAYS forget the second part of both of these amendments?

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
02-09-2006 09:32 AM
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Tulsaman Offline
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RebelKev Wrote:
Tulsaman Wrote:
DrTorch Wrote:Citizens have the right to bear arms.

It says the militia can bear arms. (If you take it in its strictest sense)


...and who the hell was the "militia"?

the non professional militaries of the states.
02-09-2006 09:38 AM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #7
 
Tulsaman Wrote:
DrTorch Wrote:Citizens have the right to bear arms.

It says the militia can bear arms. (If you take it in its strictest sense)

No, in its strictest sense it says "the right of the people to bear arms".

Frankly this isn't as complicated as the author wants it to be. The people have the right to bear arms to maintain a free state, that is to protect themselves from traditional foes, AND from a tyrant who claims office and then uses the state militia to enforce tyranny.
02-09-2006 09:44 AM
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Tulsaman Wrote:the non professional militaries of the states.

Ok, let me expound further, who COMPRISES the militia? Read the amendment.
02-09-2006 09:44 AM
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By the way, as Torch says, it's not that complicated. The right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. The REASON is a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state.

It can't be interpreted any other way, well, intelligently that is.
02-09-2006 09:47 AM
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Tulsaman Offline
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RebelKev Wrote:
Tulsaman Wrote:the non professional militaries of the states.

Ok, let me expound further, who COMPRISES the militia? Read the amendment.

i know what you mean. i was just seeing how far you'd go with it.
02-09-2006 09:52 AM
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RebelKev Wrote:intelligently

thats the key. Intelligence is damn hard word to define.
02-09-2006 09:53 AM
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Obviously, I am pretty far on the right side on most issues, but I can see the view of NY here. No one is telling this guy he can't have or bear arms. NY is just telling him he can't bring it with him while travelling for regulation purposes. I'm pretty sure if he moved to NY he could get a permit for that state.

On the other hand, I also see this gentleman's point. If his home state awarded him a concealed weapons permit, why should NY State not honor it as well?

If upheld, I don't know that it is that big of a precedent. However, if overturned, it could be a huge win for 2nd amendment and NRA-type proponents.
02-09-2006 09:58 AM
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OK, I guess this is the time/place to get some answers to a question I have always wondered about.

Why is it always assumed that arms always means only guns? We have arms races, arms treaties, arms dealers, and sometimes arms means atomic weapons, missiles, machine guns, grenades, submarines, fighter aircraft, etc.
Do Americans have the right to buy Stinger missiles? Do they have the right to own landmines? No. Are these arms? You tell me. And if they are, how are they different form a gun, under the Second Amendment? And if not, why not?

BTW, I am not anti-gun, or pro-gun, just wondering about the legal definition of arms.
02-09-2006 04:00 PM
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OptimisticOwl Wrote:OK, I guess this is the time/place to get some answers to a question I have always wondered about.

Why is it always assumed that arms always means only guns? We have arms races, arms treaties, arms dealers, and sometimes arms means atomic weapons, missiles, machine guns, grenades, submarines, fighter aircraft, etc.
Do Americans have the right to buy Stinger missiles? Do they have the right to own landmines? No. Are these arms? You tell me. And if they are, how are they different form a gun, under the Second Amendment? And if not, why not?

BTW, I am not anti-gun, or pro-gun, just wondering about the legal definition of arms.

I think that is a valid question and is the argument the NRA uses for their interpretation that it is OK to own assault rifles. Although not ecomonically feasible for most citizens, it would be pretty funny for Bill Gates to have a Nuclear Missle or two stashed at his house....Cue GTS rant... 05-stirthepot
02-09-2006 04:13 PM
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I think its illegal to own a gun in Chicago. That's GOT to be unconstitutional!


:ninja: shhhhh.... don't tell anyone I have one, I could go to jail
02-09-2006 11:43 PM
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Fanatical Wrote:I think its illegal to own a gun in Chicago. That's GOT to be unconstitutional!


:ninja: shhhhh.... don't tell anyone I have one, I could go to jail


I KNOW NUZZZZING!!!! NUZZZZING!!!!!
02-09-2006 11:58 PM
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OptimisticOwl Wrote:OK, I guess this is the time/place to get some answers to a question I have always wondered about.

Why is it always assumed that arms always means only guns? We have arms races, arms treaties, arms dealers, and sometimes arms means atomic weapons, missiles, machine guns, grenades, submarines, fighter aircraft, etc.
Do Americans have the right to buy Stinger missiles? Do they have the right to own landmines? No. Are these arms? You tell me. And if they are, how are they different form a gun, under the Second Amendment? And if not, why not?

BTW, I am not anti-gun, or pro-gun, just wondering about the legal definition of arms.

Good question. Obviously the original intent had to stop at the technology available. But, since the founding fathers probably weren't against bayonettes, pikes, etc, it is unclear if they wanted to draw the line with future technology.

That's especially true if you buy into my perspective that the people need to defend themselves from a state-controlling tyrant. If he has an arsenal of weapons, don't the people need the same selection?

I'd never thought of this before. Thanks for the provocative question.
02-10-2006 08:27 AM
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