PirateTreasureNC Wrote:There are plenty of ways to not make the baby in the first place and if you are adult enough to "make" one then you should own up and take care of it or have it adopted if you can't take care of it.

That statement angers me. Whether you like it or not, kids will have sex early and often. It cannot and won't be stopped. Condoms break. Birth control fails.

I've seen a friend get pregnant, despite a condom and birth control, and be forced to drop out of college because she couldn't do the workload anymore. She couldn't pay tuition anymore due to diapers and formula. If she doesn't get her feet up from under her, she and her kid will become a burden to society in a matter of time. All this pain, suffering, grief, and RUINING OF LIVES despite taking the proper precautions... all because some people think a woman shouldn't be able to abort ... even if "it" is not even *CLOSE* to being a human (namely, an active brain).

Furthermore, there's rape... incest... and cases where the pregnancy is of high fatal risk to child and/or mother.... and cases where the child in question is, to put it nicely, "incompatible with life as we know it".

Frankly, in the above cases I have lined out, if these women didn't have an option to abort at a reasonable time, I think they have the right to file suit against the US gov't for pain, suffering, damages, and in some cases wrongful death... because IMO it's nothing less than criminal to take away the option for them to avoid these problems at a reasonable time.

Before somebody starts screaming that I support aborting weeks before birth or something.. notice I said REASONABLE time.

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:

PirateTreasureNC Wrote:There are plenty of ways to not make the baby in the first place and if you are adult enough to "make" one then you should own up and take care of it or have it adopted if you can't take care of it.

That statement angers me. Whether you like it or not, kids will have sex early and often. It cannot and won't be stopped. Condoms break. Birth control fails.

I've seen a friend get pregnant, despite a condom and birth control, and be forced to drop out of college because she couldn't do the workload anymore. She couldn't pay tuition anymore due to diapers and formula. If she doesn't get her feet up from under her, she and her kid will become a burden to society in a matter of time. All this pain, suffering, grief, and RUINING OF LIVES despite taking the proper precautions... all because some people think a woman shouldn't be able to abort ... even if "it" is not even *CLOSE* to being a human (namely, an active brain).

Furthermore, there's rape... incest... and cases where the pregnancy is of high fatal risk to child and/or mother.... and cases where the child in question is, to put it nicely, "incompatible with life as we know it".

Frankly, in the above cases I have lined out, if these women didn't have an option to abort at a reasonable time, I think they have the right to file suit against the US gov't for pain, suffering, damages, and in some cases wrongful death... because IMO it's nothing less than criminal to take away the option for them to avoid these problems at a reasonable time.

Before somebody starts screaming that I support aborting weeks before birth or something.. notice I said REASONABLE time.

Put the baby up for adoption. Problem solved. Just because you have a baby doesn't mean you have to keep it.

JTiger Wrote:Put the baby up for adoption. Problem solved. Just because you have a baby doesn't mean you have to keep it.

Problem NOT solved......
- No guarantee it will be adopted
- Ignores children who are "incompatible with life as we know it."
- Ignores pregnancy with high fatal risk to mother/child
- Ignores rape/incest
- Having seen pregnant women in my HS, I can tell you it's mortifying to be in their position. 9 months of punishment followed by uncertainty and a problem on your hands that may force you to drop out due to time/money? All because a condom broke and birth control failed..?

That may be a solution for some; but it's CERTAINLY nowhere close to one that can cover everyone.

I for one am resentful that this has become the key topic in the alito hearings.

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:

JTiger Wrote:Put the baby up for adoption. Problem solved. Just because you have a baby doesn't mean you have to keep it.

Problem NOT solved......
- No guarantee it will be adopted
- Ignores children who are "incompatible with life as we know it."
- Ignores pregnancy with high fatal risk to mother/child
- Ignores rape/incest
- Having seen pregnant women in my HS, I can tell you it's mortifying to be in their position. 9 months of punishment followed by uncertainty and a problem on your hands that may force you to drop out due to time/money? All because a condom broke and birth control failed..?

That may be a solution for some; but it's CERTAINLY nowhere close to one that can cover everyone.

Sometimes you have to live with the consequences of your actions. If the condom breaks and you get AIDS or herpes, you live with it the rest of your life. Should it be any different here?

Well, I know I got pregnant, but I really didn't want the baby, so, I'll just kill the baby and not have to worry about it.

With the exception of rape/incest, the woman and man involved in the creation of the baby both know and consented to the risks of having sex.

Your story about the girl in college getting pregnant, although tragic, isn't any worse than a guy I went to high school with who was out drinking, drove home, got in an accident and is now paralyzed for the rest of his life. You don't think he'd like to take that night back? We all live with the desicions we make each day. Good and bad.

God doesn't make mistakes! Only people do.

uhmump95 Wrote:

PirateTreasureNC Wrote:There are plenty of ways to not make the baby in the first place and if you are adult enough to "make" one then you should own up and take care of it or have it adopted if you can't take care of it.

But shouldn't they also be adult enough to choose if they do not want to have the baby at all.

"Adult enough"? We're talking about another human being. A human being btw who has the same right to life as any of us...perhaps moreso b/c they are completely innocent.

blah Wrote:Sometimes you have to live with the consequences of your actions. If the condom breaks and you get AIDS or herpes, you live with it the rest of your life. Should it be any different here?

Well, I know I got pregnant, but I really didn't want the baby, so, I'll just kill the baby and not have to worry about it.

With the exception of rape/incest, the woman and man involved in the creation of the baby both know and consented to the risks of having sex.

Your story about the girl in college getting pregnant, although tragic, isn't any worse than a guy I went to high school with who was out drinking, drove home, got in an accident and is now paralyzed for the rest of his life. You don't think he'd like to take that night back? We all live with the desicions we make each day. Good and bad.

Bad analogy. You can find out if your partner is free of diseases before hand... you can't find out if the birth control/condom will fail before hand.

GrayBeard Wrote:God doesn't make mistakes! Only people do.

Religion directly being in this argument is as out of place as Intelligent Design in a science textbook.

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:

blah Wrote:Sometimes you have to live with the consequences of your actions. If the condom breaks and you get AIDS or herpes, you live with it the rest of your life. Should it be any different here?

Well, I know I got pregnant, but I really didn't want the baby, so, I'll just kill the baby and not have to worry about it.

With the exception of rape/incest, the woman and man involved in the creation of the baby both know and consented to the risks of having sex.

Your story about the girl in college getting pregnant, although tragic, isn't any worse than a guy I went to high school with who was out drinking, drove home, got in an accident and is now paralyzed for the rest of his life. You don't think he'd like to take that night back? We all live with the desicions we make each day. Good and bad.

Bad analogy. You can find out if your partner is free of diseases before hand... you can't find out if the birth control/condom will fail before hand.

Come on GTS...get real.

[you]May I please see your "Disease Free" card before we begin intercourse[/you]

[girl]huh? Whatever, dork![/girl]

Not to mention that most diseases take a while to show up (usually 30 days or so). Having sex with someone is like riding in a plane...99.99% of the time, nothing happens. However, every now and then something breaks. Sometimes it breaks bad and you crash. Sometimes not too bad and you land without a landing gear and you get some bumps and bruises (I've seen this happen by the way.) Either way you should live with the results of your decisions. If you aren't man enough or woman enough, don't participate in the activity.

blah Wrote:Come on GTS...get real.

[you]May I please see your "Disease Free" card before we begin intercourse[/you]

[girl]huh? Whatever, dork![/girl]

Not to mention that most diseases take a while to show up (usually 30 days or so). Having sex with someone is like riding in a plane...99.99% of the time, nothing happens. However, every now and then something breaks. Sometimes it breaks bad and you crash. Sometimes not too bad and you land without a landing gear and you get some bumps and bruises (I've seen this happen by the way.) Either way you should live with the results of your decisions. If you aren't man enough or woman enough, don't participate in the activity.

You can still find out the bill of health of your partner. Hell you can find out the bill of the health for all of the hookers at the Bunny Ranch.

Interesting analogy on the plane bit. And for those 0.01% of victims, are they told to "deal with" whatever happened? Nope. They get cut a huge check from the airline. I guess the courts don't buy into the "man enough" angle the airlines might try...

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:

blah Wrote:Come on GTS...get real.

[you]May I please see your "Disease Free" card before we begin intercourse[/you]

[girl]huh? Whatever, dork![/girl]

Not to mention that most diseases take a while to show up (usually 30 days or so). Having sex with someone is like riding in a plane...99.99% of the time, nothing happens. However, every now and then something breaks. Sometimes it breaks bad and you crash. Sometimes not too bad and you land without a landing gear and you get some bumps and bruises (I've seen this happen by the way.) Either way you should live with the results of your decisions. If you aren't man enough or woman enough, don't participate in the activity.

You can still find out the bill of health of your partner. Hell you can find out the bill of the health for all of the hookers at the Bunny Ranch.

Interesting analogy on the plane bit. And for those 0.01% of victims, are they told to "deal with" whatever happened? Nope. They get cut a huge check from the airline. I guess the courts don't buy into the "man enough" angle the airlines might try...

You may have heard of "child support." It works much the same way as the airlines paying for a crash. The man or woman (if the child lives with the man) admits responsibility for a child who is born and then pays until that child reaches adulthood. Sounds the same to me. The funny part to me is that today, the woman gets to choose if she wants the child or not, however, the man has no choice in whether he wants to pay child support.

DrTorch Wrote:

uhmump95 Wrote:

PirateTreasureNC Wrote:There are plenty of ways to not make the baby in the first place and if you are adult enough to "make" one then you should own up and take care of it or have it adopted if you can't take care of it.

But shouldn't they also be adult enough to choose if they do not want to have the baby at all.

"Adult enough"? We're talking about another human being. A human being btw who has the same right to life as any of us...perhaps moreso b/c they are completely innocent.

We have had this discussion before. Innocence does not mean sh!t about sh!t.

The point is you have a choice. You can rather or not to have sex. If you get pregnant, you can choose rather or not to have the baby.

For all you religious types remember, God does not take away from your ability to choose. He allows you to choose and then you deal with the consequences of your good or bad decisions. It should be the same for abortion.

blah Wrote:You may have heard of "child support." It works much the same way as the airlines paying for a crash. The man or woman (if the child lives with the man) admits responsibility for a child who is born and then pays until that child reaches adulthood. Sounds the same to me. The funny part to me is that today, the woman gets to choose if she wants the child or not, however, the man has no choice in whether he wants to pay child support.

Yet still another bad analogy.

The couple engages in a act which should come of no ill effect... but the condom and birth control fail. So the man pays "damages" to the mother?

The couple engages in a act which should come of no ill effect (flying).... but the plane and pilots fail. .... So the guy's parents pay "damages" to the girl's parents?

Hmmmmmm.....

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:

blah Wrote:You may have heard of "child support." It works much the same way as the airlines paying for a crash. The man or woman (if the child lives with the man) admits responsibility for a child who is born and then pays until that child reaches adulthood. Sounds the same to me. The funny part to me is that today, the woman gets to choose if she wants the child or not, however, the man has no choice in whether he wants to pay child support.

Yet still another bad analogy.

The couple engages in a act which should come of no ill effect... but the condom and birth control fail. So the man pays "damages" to the mother?

The couple engages in a act which should come of no ill effect (flying).... but the plane and pilots fail. .... So the guy's parents pay "damages" to the girl's parents?

Hmmmmmm.....

I wasn't considering it from the point of view that the condom/birth control failed. Just that a couple got pregnant. I see your point there, but that kind of gets us off topic (btw, I don't see why the couple couldn't sue the birth control manufacturer if a manufacturing flaw was found.)

If you look at it from the pure pregnancy perspective, you have to admit that it is rather odd that the woman has all the decision making power. She can choose to abort, without consent from the father or she can choose to have the baby and hold the father liable for child support. He had a hand in creating the baby, why should he not get a vote in its future?

[quote="fsquid"][quote="ccs178"]This is one of my favorite op/ed pieces about abortion. Enjoy.

[quote]The Empty Cradle Will Rock
How abortion is costing the Democrats voters--literally.

BY LARRY L. EASTLAND
Monday, June 28, 2004 12:01 a.m. EDT

More than 40 million legal abortions have been performed and documented in the 30 years since the U.S. Supreme Court declared abortion legal. The debate remains focused on the legality and morality of abortion. What's largely ignored is a factual analysis of the political consequences of 40 million abortions. Consider:

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:

GrayBeard Wrote:God doesn't make mistakes! Only people do.

Religion directly being in this argument is as out of place as Intelligent Design in a science textbook.

If having a ***** doesn't preclude you from having an opinion, then having religion doesn't preclude anybody else from having one either.

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:

JTiger Wrote:Put the baby up for adoption. Problem solved. Just because you have a baby doesn't mean you have to keep it.

Problem NOT solved......
- No guarantee it will be adopted
- Ignores children who are "incompatible with life as we know it."
- Ignores pregnancy with high fatal risk to mother/child
- Ignores rape/incest
- Having seen pregnant women in my HS, I can tell you it's mortifying to be in their position. 9 months of punishment followed by uncertainty and a problem on your hands that may force you to drop out due to time/money? All because a condom broke and birth control failed..?

That may be a solution for some; but it's CERTAINLY nowhere close to one that can cover everyone.

Abortion Statistics - Decisions to Have an Abortion (U.S.) 2001

25.5% of women deciding to have an abortion want to postpone childbearing.
21.3% of women cannot afford a baby.
14.1% of women have a relationship issue or their partner does not want a child.
12.2% of women are too young (their parents or others object to the pregnancy.)
10.8% of women feel a child will disrupt their education or career.
7.9% of women want no (more) children.
3.3% of women have an abortion due to a risk to fetal health.
2.8% of women have an abortion due to a risk to maternal health.

The Alan Guttmacher Institute.

The kids who don't want to have kids should just play it safe and stick to oral sex. Plus I think they'd be better off with some horrible growth on their face from an STD, than a child they don't want.

For the guys:
If you are stupid enough to just go and have sex with any old girl who lets you in her pants, you deserve whatever disease she has. Plus you deserve to have to take care of a child if she decides to have it. You had your choice when you blew your load.

Girls:
Please, you know what is at risk. It's not like people are out there saying that condoms work all the time. Is it really worth pleasuring some guy who may or may not call you back next week? You probably won't even have an orgasm anyway, cause he just wants what he wants. So go ahead and risk the next 18 years and 9 months of your life.

That said, I support the right a woman to have an abortion (I originally typed "orgasm" lmfao ). I just think it's a sad statement on the person who's getting it. It's basically an utter lack of responsibility to get yourself into that situation a good chunk of the time. I'm not talking about being raped or incest or cases where the mother's life is in danger; those are obviously extreme cases. But here's my question. Why don't they take the embryos, fetuses, zygotes, little people, or whatever and use them for stem cell research? I mean they're killing them anyway, right? Anyone with me on this?

uhmump95 Wrote:

DrTorch Wrote:

uhmump95 Wrote:

PirateTreasureNC Wrote:There are plenty of ways to not make the baby in the first place and if you are adult enough to "make" one then you should own up and take care of it or have it adopted if you can't take care of it.

But shouldn't they also be adult enough to choose if they do not want to have the baby at all.

"Adult enough"? We're talking about another human being. A human being btw who has the same right to life as any of us...perhaps moreso b/c they are completely innocent.

We have had this discussion before. Innocence does not mean sh!t about sh!t.

Actually it does, but we can ignore that point if you'd stick to the real one.

Quote:The point is you have a choice. You can rather or not to have sex.

Ok, we agree here.

Quote:If you get pregnant, you can choose rather or not to have the baby.

Yes you can. However that's not the discussion (try to stick with us here) . The question is in fact, "Is that right or just?" And while you can use a euphamism about "having the baby", the question you are asking is, "Will you choose to kill the baby?"

This isn't about "can you kill the baby?" That's obviously 'yes'. So stop bothering with that red-herring.

I don't see anyone offering any reason why the baby should be killed, or even why it's a legitimate thing to do. I'm waiting. I've been waiting for decades to see such an answer.

Quote: you religious types remember, God does not take away from your ability to choose. He allows you to choose and then you deal with the consequences of your good or bad decisions. It should be the same for abortion.

Ever hear of the "legal system"? This has nothing to do w/ God. It has everything to do with the man-made laws.