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Not sure how you lot feel about this, but I thought it was worth posting...


**edit by GrayBeard**I condensed the original URL so that it wouldn't "extend" the screen.

What are the grounds for clemency in this case? I have not been paying attention to this, but the guy was convicted of something like 4 murders, so why should this guy live?

GrayBeard Wrote:What are the grounds for clemency in this case? I have not been paying attention to this, but the guy was convicted of something like 4 murders, so why should this guy live?

The basic argument, I think, is that since being imprisoned, he's changed his ways. Mainly: he was a founding member of the Crips, but now writes books about the evils and pitfalls of gang violence.

They've really run the gamut on why he should be given a new trial/clemency/a deferred judgement... the largest two, at least to my knowledge, are:

1) Facts of the case: There are allegations that the jury selection process was racist, with the lead prosecutor getting rid of all black americans on the jury. In addition, apparently there is new evidence which has not been taken into consideration

2) His 'redemption' - As the Jamie Foxx movie showed, williams sought redemption after getting on death row, by writing children's books, and helping establish a truce between the bloods and crips (two of California's more notorious gangs, that now are spreading across the country)

Personally, I think that both arguments are bunk.

Lethemeul Wrote:

GrayBeard Wrote:What are the grounds for clemency in this case? I have not been paying attention to this, but the guy was convicted of something like 4 murders, so why should this guy live?

The basic argument, I think, is that since being imprisoned, he's changed his ways. Mainly: he was a founding member of the Crips, but now writes books about the evils and pitfalls of gang violence.

Well, I'm sorry, but that doesn't change what he did. I hope his is straight with **the guy who's name can not be mentioned on this board** or what is to come for him will be much worse than his life/death.

The circus out here in California has made a lot of folks very uncomfortable. You've got a convicted (notwithstanding the inclination of some "journalists" to continue to refer to his crimes as "alleged") murderer who has had ALL repeals rejected. So at this point, really, his only shot is the redemption angle. But is that really all it takes? If so, how many other death row inmates are qualified for similar clemency? Or is Tookie MORE redeemed than they are? Is he going to help the community more with his childrens books and positive influence? These types of arguments are specious and miss the bigger picture. If you have to know Snoop and Jamie Foxx to get your argument heard, the system isn't remotely fair.

For people like me who are against the death penalty, the lionizing of Tookie is changing the language of the discussion in a tragic way. These rallies and promotions have some people talking about a convicted murderer as a hero and it makes anti death penalty advocates look incredibly soft on crime. Personally, I'd like to see the guy stay behind bars with minimal privileges for the rest of his life. I don't need him publishing any more lousy books or negotiating truces with gang members who consider him to be irrelevant. I just don't want the government killing its citizens.

I cant agree with this one either and it seems the older I become the less I am an advocate of the death penalty..maybe that has something to do with being Catholic as well. But all things considered what is going to be gained by executuing Tookie Williams, justice ? not really, not in the end. Oh I guess the families of the victims will feel as if justice has been served , but has it really.

I have no idea what I would feel like if one of the victims had been a relative of mine, maybe different , then again maybe not . If you execute someone their suffering so to speak is over, leave them in prison for the rest of their life which would be a living hell..Im just glad that I have never had to suffer the loss of a loved one due to a murder , but I have to wonder if my feelings toward the death penalty would change or what, killing someone else isnt going to bring back the others, nor is it really going to do much for those left behind. I guess some of it has to do with how we each view life , the living and the dead.

Fry the POS. He is still unrepentant of his crimes and has refused to help the police bring down the Crips. He's a thug.

A line I found especially disturbing about this is when Snoop Dogg described Tookie as the Martin Luther King of this generation.


Yet another reason why celebrities should not be allowed to speak in front of recorded media on anything relating to political affairs.




FYI: I never thought I'd see the day that I'd agree with rebelkev... :)

Move over Mumia, there appears to be a new hero.

The overall arguments against the death penalty practice are reasonable, even if one were to disagree with them. But what is particularly tiresome is the elevation of society's dregs to Sainthood by the usual suspects: Hollywood dolts, academia leftists, and Euro-preachers. I mean, he was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize, fer chrissake.

Ten Chinese citizens were killed by China's state police last week for simply protesting what they saw as eminent domain abuse. No candlelight vigils. No speeches from actors and musicians. No anger in the European press columns. No denouncements by California's professional protestors.

I guess writing childrens books is not enough for clemency He could of started by admitting guilt and apologizing for taking the four lives that we know about. No telling how many young kids from rival gangs he either killed or ordered killed.