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1125 Offline
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Post: #41
 
safetyeagle Wrote:free religion(or whats left of it)
Explain...
06-30-2004 10:17 PM
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safetyeagle Offline
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Post: #42
 
UCBearcats1125 Wrote:
safetyeagle Wrote:free religion(or whats left of it)
Explain...
a kid gets suspended from school coz he wears a Christian tshirt and the govt does nothing, a girl wears a head scarf to a school and the govt protects her right to wear it coz it is part of her religion(Muslim). I have no problem with the girl wearing her scarf but let the boy wear his shirt, or make both wear nothing that suggest any form of religious leanings. im sure someone will say im crying and put the little :cry: or :( emoticons up, but so be it.
freedom to express ones religion should be up to the individual not the govt or the aclu.
07-01-2004 08:02 AM
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MAKO Offline
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Post: #43
 
There is a difference between something your religion requires you to wear and something you choose to wear because of your religion.

As far as I know, there are few Christian sects that require the wear of some particular item. Once you get to the items of choice, they are no more protected in school than any other item a student chooses to wear as a means of expression. Certainly, students have some free speech rights in school but they are not as great as they would be outside of the school setting. Courts have long recognized the need of school administrators to regulate the conduct of students.

As for your particular example, I'm unaware of that and it's pretty difficult to respond intelligently when someone makes a general statement without citing to the specific circumstances.
07-01-2004 10:04 AM
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Ninerfan1 Offline
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Post: #44
 
Quote:There is a difference between something your religion requires you to wear and something you choose to wear because of your religion.

Christians are required to evangalize. They're called to spread the Gospel. So are you saying you have no problem with them doing that in school?
07-01-2004 10:29 AM
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safetyeagle Offline
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Post: #45
 
MAKO Wrote:Courts have long recognized the need of school administrators to regulate the conduct of students.
i have no problem with this, but i fail too see how wearing a religious tshirt or jewelry or etc has anything to do with bad conduct
07-01-2004 10:55 AM
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safetyeagle Offline
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Post: #46
 
MAKO Wrote:As for your particular example, I'm unaware of that and it's pretty difficult to respond intelligently when someone makes a general statement without citing to the specific circumstances.
ill get my sources for you if you require me to do so it may take a little while though.
07-01-2004 10:57 AM
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safetyeagle Offline
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Post: #47
 
<a href='http://www.wwrn.org/parse.php?idd=9659&c=55' target='_blank'>scarf article</a>
ok read the link above
07-01-2004 11:05 AM
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T-Monay820 Offline
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Post: #48
 
Its freedom of religion, not from it.
07-01-2004 12:07 PM
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rickheel Offline
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Post: #49
 
I love this Judge:

Remember the guy who got on a plane with a bomb built into his shoe and tried to light it?

Did you know his trial is over?

Did you know he was sentenced?

Did you see/hear any of the judge's comments on TV/Radio? - - -

Didn't think so. Everyone should hear what the judge had to say.

Ruling by Judge William Young U.S. District Court.

Prior to sentencing, the Judge asked the defendant if he had anything to say.

After admitting his guilt to the court for the record, Reid also admitted his "allegiance to Osama bin Laden, to Islam, and to the religion of Allah," defiantly stated "I think I ought not apologize for my actions," and told the court "I am at war with your country."

Judge Young then delivered the statement quoted below on January
30,
2003 United States vs. Reid.

Judge Young:

"Mr. Richard C. Reid, hearken now to the sentence the Court imposes upon you On counts 1, 5 and 6 the Court sentences you to life in prison in the custody of the United States Attorney General.

On counts 2, 3, 4 and 7, the Court sentences you to 20 years in prison on each count, the sentence on each count to run consecutive with the other. That's 80 years.

On count 8 the Court sentences you to the mandatory 30 years consecutive to the 80 years just imposed. The Court imposes upon you each of the eight counts a fine of $250,000 for the aggregate fine of $2 million. The Court accepts the government's recommendation with respect to restitution and orders restitution in the amount of $298.17 to Andre Bousquet and $5,784 to American Airlines. The Court imposes upon you the $800 special assessment. The Court imposes upon you five years supervised release simply because the law requires it. But the life sentences are real life sentences so I need go no further. This is the sentence that is provided for by our statutes. It is a fair and just sentence. It is a righteous sentence Let me explain this to you.

We are not afraid of you or any of your terrorist co-conspirators, Mr. Reid. We are Americans. We have been through the fire before. There is all too much war talk here. And I say that to everyone with the utmost respect. Here in this court, where we deal with individuals as individuals, and care for individuals as individuals. As human beings, we reach out for justice. You are not an enemy combatant. You are a terrorist. You are not a soldier in any war. You are a terrorist. To give you that reference, to call you a soldier, gives you far too much stature.

Whether it is the officers of government who do it, or your attorney who does it, or that happens to be your view, you are a terrorist. And we do not negotiate with terrorists. We do not treat with terrorists. We do not sign documents with terrorists. We hunt them down one by one and bring them to justice. So war talk is way out of line in this court.

You are a big fellow. But you are not that big. You're no warrior. I know warriors. You are a terrorist. A species of criminal guilty of multiple attempted murders. In a very real sense, State Trooper Santiago had it right when you first were taken off that plane and into custody and you wondered where the press and where the TV crews were, and he said you're no big deal. You're no big deal.

What your counsel, what your able counsel and what the equally able United States attorneys have grappled with and what I have as honestly as I know how tried to grapple with, is why you did something so horrific. What was it that led you here to this courtroom today? I have listened respectfully to what you have to say. And I ask you to search your heart and ask yourself what sort of unfathomable hate led you to do what you are guilty and admit you are guilty of doing. And I have an answer for you. It may not satisfy you. But as I search this entire record, it comes as close to understanding as I know.

It seems to me you hate the one thing that is most precious. You hate our freedom. Our individual freedom. Our individual freedom to live as we choose, to come and go as we choose, to believe or not believe as we individually choose.

Here, in this society, the very winds carry freedom. They carry it everywhere from sea to shining sea. It is because we prize individual freedom so much that you are here in this beautiful courtroom so that everyone can see, truly see that justice is administered fairly, individually, and discretely.

It is for freedom's sake that your lawyers are striving so vigorously on your behalf and have filed appeals, will go on in their representation of you before other judges.

We are about it. Because we all know that the way we treat you, Mr. Reid, is the measure of our own liberties. Make no mistake though. It is yet true that we will bear any burden, pay any price, to preserve our freedoms. Look around this courtroom. Mark it well. The world is not going to long remember what you or I say here. The day after tomorrow it will be forgotten.

But this, however, will long endure. Here in this courtroom and courtrooms all across America, the American people will gather to see that justice, individual justice. Justice, not war. Individual justice is in fact being done.

The very President of the United States through his officers will have to come into courtrooms and lay out evidence on which specific matters can be judged, and juries of citizens will gather to sit and judge that evidence democratically, to mold and shape and refine our sense of justice.

See that flag, Mr. Reid? That's the flag of the United States of America. That flag will fly there long after this is all forgotten. That flag stands for freedom. You know it always will.

Custody, Mr. Officer. Stand him down."
07-01-2004 03:14 PM
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Schadenfreude Offline
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Post: #50
 
safetyeagle Wrote:<a href='http://www.wwrn.org/parse.php?idd=9659&c=55' target='_blank'>scarf article</a>
ok read the link above
What's the problem?

Why did that poor girl have to go to court in the first place?
07-01-2004 08:03 PM
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T-Monay820 Offline
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Post: #51
 
rickheel Wrote:I love this Judge:

Remember the guy who got on a plane with a bomb built into his shoe and tried to light it?

Did you know his trial is over?

Did you know he was sentenced?

Did you see/hear any of the judge's comments on TV/Radio? - - -

Didn't think so. Everyone should hear what the judge had to say.

Ruling by Judge William Young U.S. District Court.

Prior to sentencing, the Judge asked the defendant if he had anything to say.

After admitting his guilt to the court for the record, Reid also admitted his "allegiance to Osama bin Laden, to Islam, and to the religion of Allah," defiantly stated "I think I ought not apologize for my actions," and told the court "I am at war with your country."

Judge Young then delivered the statement quoted below on January
30,
2003 United States vs. Reid.

Judge Young:

"Mr. Richard C. Reid, hearken now to the sentence the Court imposes upon you On counts 1, 5 and 6 the Court sentences you to life in prison in the custody of the United States Attorney General.

On counts 2, 3, 4 and 7, the Court sentences you to 20 years in prison on each count, the sentence on each count to run consecutive with the other. That's 80 years.

On count 8 the Court sentences you to the mandatory 30 years consecutive to the 80 years just imposed. The Court imposes upon you each of the eight counts a fine of $250,000 for the aggregate fine of $2 million. The Court accepts the government's recommendation with respect to restitution and orders restitution in the amount of $298.17 to Andre Bousquet and $5,784 to American Airlines. The Court imposes upon you the $800 special assessment. The Court imposes upon you five years supervised release simply because the law requires it. But the life sentences are real life sentences so I need go no further. This is the sentence that is provided for by our statutes. It is a fair and just sentence. It is a righteous sentence Let me explain this to you.

We are not afraid of you or any of your terrorist co-conspirators, Mr. Reid. We are Americans. We have been through the fire before. There is all too much war talk here. And I say that to everyone with the utmost respect. Here in this court, where we deal with individuals as individuals, and care for individuals as individuals. As human beings, we reach out for justice. You are not an enemy combatant. You are a terrorist. You are not a soldier in any war. You are a terrorist. To give you that reference, to call you a soldier, gives you far too much stature.

Whether it is the officers of government who do it, or your attorney who does it, or that happens to be your view, you are a terrorist. And we do not negotiate with terrorists. We do not treat with terrorists. We do not sign documents with terrorists. We hunt them down one by one and bring them to justice. So war talk is way out of line in this court.

You are a big fellow. But you are not that big. You're no warrior. I know warriors. You are a terrorist. A species of criminal guilty of multiple attempted murders. In a very real sense, State Trooper Santiago had it right when you first were taken off that plane and into custody and you wondered where the press and where the TV crews were, and he said you're no big deal. You're no big deal.

What your counsel, what your able counsel and what the equally able United States attorneys have grappled with and what I have as honestly as I know how tried to grapple with, is why you did something so horrific. What was it that led you here to this courtroom today? I have listened respectfully to what you have to say. And I ask you to search your heart and ask yourself what sort of unfathomable hate led you to do what you are guilty and admit you are guilty of doing. And I have an answer for you. It may not satisfy you. But as I search this entire record, it comes as close to understanding as I know.

It seems to me you hate the one thing that is most precious. You hate our freedom. Our individual freedom. Our individual freedom to live as we choose, to come and go as we choose, to believe or not believe as we individually choose.

Here, in this society, the very winds carry freedom. They carry it everywhere from sea to shining sea. It is because we prize individual freedom so much that you are here in this beautiful courtroom so that everyone can see, truly see that justice is administered fairly, individually, and discretely.

It is for freedom's sake that your lawyers are striving so vigorously on your behalf and have filed appeals, will go on in their representation of you before other judges.

We are about it. Because we all know that the way we treat you, Mr. Reid, is the measure of our own liberties. Make no mistake though. It is yet true that we will bear any burden, pay any price, to preserve our freedoms. Look around this courtroom. Mark it well. The world is not going to long remember what you or I say here. The day after tomorrow it will be forgotten.

But this, however, will long endure. Here in this courtroom and courtrooms all across America, the American people will gather to see that justice, individual justice. Justice, not war. Individual justice is in fact being done.

The very President of the United States through his officers will have to come into courtrooms and lay out evidence on which specific matters can be judged, and juries of citizens will gather to sit and judge that evidence democratically, to mold and shape and refine our sense of justice.

See that flag, Mr. Reid? That's the flag of the United States of America. That flag will fly there long after this is all forgotten. That flag stands for freedom. You know it always will.

Custody, Mr. Officer. Stand him down."
Brilliant speech that directly goes to the heart of the "War on Terror".

(Speaking about text in bold) I never would have thought of saying something like this. Its so true. They are not soldiers, but straight up murderers. 04-bow
07-01-2004 11:44 PM
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MAKO Offline
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Post: #52
 
It would mean a whole lot more if Dubya and the neo-cons didn't demonstrate their continuing contempt for the principles set forth in our Constitution regarding treatment of the accused. This judge rightly recognized that our system requires that people be charged, given adequate representation, and brought to trial. Dubya thinks he can hold anyone he wants, for any length of time, without counsel, and without a trial.

Fortunately, the Supreme Court, by an 8-1 margin, disagreed.
07-02-2004 08:53 AM
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Fanatical Offline
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Post: #53
 
safetyeagle Wrote:<a href='http://www.wwrn.org/parse.php?idd=9659&c=55' target='_blank'>scarf article</a>
ok read the link above
"School officials said her clothing violated a dress code banning hats and other head coverings."

I don't really have a problem with head scarves, but if this was the school code then shouldn't it be enforced? If they were unhappy look for a different school or home school. Otherwise everyone should be able to wear headgear and the school code changed to allow all headgear.
07-02-2004 09:11 AM
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Rebel
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Post: #54
 
MAKO Wrote:There is a difference between something your religion requires you to wear and something you choose to wear because of your religion.&nbsp;

As far as I know, there are few Christian sects that require the wear of some particular item.&nbsp; Once you get to the items of choice, they are no more protected in school than any other item a student chooses to wear as a means of expression.&nbsp; Certainly, students have some free speech rights in school but they are not as great as they would be outside of the school setting.&nbsp; Courts have long recognized the need of school administrators to regulate the conduct of students.

As for your particular example, I'm unaware of that and it's pretty difficult to respond intelligently when someone makes a general statement without citing to the specific circumstances.
Ohhhhh My......God......I cannot BELIEVE you just said that. I also guess you are against the United States Constitution. That damn shirt, or whatever she wore, was for her. If it offended someone, who GIVE'S a rat's arse. She is an INDIVIDUAL. It is her RIGHT to express her religion. What you liberals apparently FAIL to realize with your obtuseness of the 1st amendment is this:

Quote:Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Read the ENTIRE Constitution and it's amendments. NOT just what fits YOUR agenda. The 10 amendments limits government, NOT citizens. I have also read about a student getting their Bible taken away. Violation of the 1st Amendment. Funny, Liberals talk about "rights" and everything yet fail to realize one of the main ones. Be consistent for pete's sake.
07-05-2004 10:38 PM
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safetyeagle Offline
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Post: #55
 
Schadenfreude Wrote:
safetyeagle Wrote:<a href='http://www.wwrn.org/parse.php?idd=9659&c=55' target='_blank'>scarf article</a>
ok read the link above
What's the problem?

Why did that poor girl have to go to court in the first place?
no problem at all. i say let her wear what she wants too if it is part of her religion,culture,etc. but if the schools are going to exclude Christain apparel then they need to do the same too all. thats all im saying. the girl in my opinion should have never wound up in court period, she should have been allowed to wear her scarf with no questions asked.
07-07-2004 09:50 AM
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