Coach Doh Wrote:If it wasn't for that I guess you right wing, moral majority neo con guys could tar and feather that ol' stinker Moore.

But there's always something trivial like the United States Constitution in the way isn't there?

doh

That's a precious sentiment but I know I don't have a problem with him making the movie or it being shown. My problem is it's a fabrication and an outright lie, and you liberals who claim to value truth so much don't care.

Ninerfan1 Wrote:My problem is it's a fabrication and an outright lie, and you liberals who claim to value truth so much don't care.

What are the fabrications and lies......exactly?

doh

<a href='http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723' target='_blank'>Unfairenheit 9/11</a> I wouldn't call it lies, just distortion.

<a href='http://mooreorpig.com/' target='_blank'>Moore or Pig</a>

Coach Doh Wrote:What are the fabrications and lies......exactly?

doh

Read the slate article linked a few posts up. Hitches outlines them nicely.

Quote:I think George W. Bush is a pathetic, sorry excuse for a national leader. He's a boob. And his reaction to the second plane striking the twin towers is just one of a 1,000 examples of that.

Don't get me wrong, there are things that Bush has done that I don't agree with BUT at least he had the stones to go into Afghanistan IMMEDIATELY. While he may have taken a few minutes to collect his thoughts while reading to school children he approved military action IMMEDIATELY.

If you want to cast stones at someone throw them at Clinton. He's the President that had the opportunity to take out OBL but was too busy getting a blow job from a fat intern to give the order.

Had Clinton taken out OBL when we had the clear shot we may not be arguing that Bush took a few minutes to gather his thoughts and keep his composure while the single largest attack on US soil since Pearl Harbor was taking place.

You are the weakest link.

Ninerfan1 Wrote:

Coach Doh Wrote:What are the fabrications and lies......exactly?

doh

Read the slate article linked a few posts up. Hitches outlines them nicely.

Nice review of the movie by Mr. Hitchins and his credentials are supposedly better than Moore's??......but now about those lies and fabrications.......exactly???

doh

Coach Doh Wrote:Nice review of the movie by Mr. Hitchins and his credentials are supposedly better than Moore's??......but now about those lies and fabrications.......exactly???

doh

Did you not read the article? Would you like me to hold your hand and relist them?

Hitchens is no conservative. If you don't believe me read his piece on Reagan a few weeks ago.

Moore deliberately leaves out information, uses creative editing to portray events inaccurately and has no regard for the context of many situations. That's lying, that's fabrication.

If a fellow Liberal is saying your movie is filled with lies and fabrications, then there must be something to it. At least Hitches is intellectually honest. Too bad more of you aren't.

Ninerfan1 Wrote:

HuskieDan Wrote:But Georgie would always rather read kindergarten books, now wouldn't he.  They're a lot easier to understand than those darn newspaper articles. &nbsp; :rolleyes:

I'm curious, what's it like to be so consumed with hatred toward one human being that all objectivity and ability for rational thought leaves you and is substituted with personal attacks and complete disregard for facts? I'm genuinely interested.

9/11 was completely chaotic. No one knew at the time if it was a terrorist attack or an accident. There wasn't a reliable flow of information. If Bush were to have gotten up and run out of the room it would have caused a complete panic in a room fool of children.

So out of curiosity, what could Bush have done in that 7 minutes he stayed to read to those kids that could have helped? What could have been prevented? Could one life have been saved by him leaving immediately? Would one of the buildings not have fallen?

No one was prepared for 9/11, and having received the news he just did it doesn't surprise me he gathered his thoughts for a moment. Only people consumed with abject hatred would assert it was some kind of character flaw. These are also the same people who would, had he jumped from his seat, left the school and went to air force one would have called him a coward who left a bunch of frightend school children in a room to wonder what was going on.:rolleyes:

You have the benefit of hindsight and the wonderful position of never having to be in the position that Bush was in. You're safe and secure in the cheap seats. Lucky for all of us to be sure.

People like you are why there is no longer any honest political debate in this country. You're motivated by hatred, not facts or reason. And that is truly sad. You'll sacrifice everything for just one last dig at the President of our country.

Pathetic. :rolleyes:

You got "hate" out of that? Hmmm, I was going for "reasonable" first, then "cynical" in the second paragraph. Perhaps I need to work on my posting skills. :rolleyes:

I don't think it is unreasonable to expect the President of the United States to understand the gravity of the situation that had just occurred, whether it was due to terrorism or lousy air traffic controllers. Stand up and walk out of the room and get to work. Don't run around the school screaming "HOLY CRAP, WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!", but go get to work.

As for the jab, he fully deserves it. He proudly claims to not read newspapers. I think that is unbelievable dense, and I happen to think he presents himself as a dimwit. I'm not particularly proud of having a dimwit for a president. A sax playing' dude that 25 year old chicks can't resist -that's my idea of a President. :D

Quote:So out of curiosity, what could Bush have done in that 7 minutes he stayed to read to those kids that could have helped?&nbsp; What could have been prevented?&nbsp; Could one life have been saved by him leaving immediately?&nbsp; Would one of the buildings not have fallen?

Now, if you're off your self-righteous soapbox, perhaps you can let me know why you think that the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES should consider that dealing with the worst terrorist attack on U.S. soil can wait for these kindergarteners' reading session. I'll buy the shock, but you're suggesting that dealing with the situation could wait.

And before you rail on liberals for destroying political debate in this country and being consumed by hatred, keep in mind that it was the pubs that spent over $70mil to impeach our President over his sexual relations. Talk about obsessed. :rolleyes:

Ninerfan1 Wrote:

Coach Doh Wrote:Nice review of the movie by Mr. Hitchins and his credentials are supposedly better than Moore's??......but now about those lies and fabrications.......exactly???

doh

Moore deliberately leaves out information, uses creative editing to portray events inaccurately and has no regard for the context of many situations. That's lying, that's fabrication.

The same could be said for the Bush adminstration.

let's look at Mr. Hitchin's allegations of lies.


Fahrenheit 9/11 makes the following points about Bin Laden and about Afghanistan, and makes them in this order:

1) The Bin Laden family (if not exactly Osama himself) had a close if convoluted business relationship with the Bush family, through the Carlyle Group.

"Through this investment and its ties to Saudi royalty, the bin Laden family has become acquainted with some of the biggest names in the Republican Party. In recent years, former President Bush, ex-Secretary of State James Baker and ex-Secretary of Defense Frank Carlucci have made the pilgrimage to the bin Laden family's headquarters in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. Mr. Bush makes speeches on behalf of Carlyle Group and is senior adviser to its Asian Partners fund, while Mr. Baker is its senior counselor. Mr. Carlucci is the group's chairman."

Wall Street Journal



2) Saudi capital in general is a very large element of foreign investment in the United States.

"The Financial Times report, which quoted analysts, said the level of Saudi investment in the United States was $400-600 billion. Some other bankers estimate total Saudi overseas investment at between $500-700 billion, but official figures for the scale of foreign Saudi investment are not available." That ain't chicken feed



3) The Unocal company in Texas had been willing to discuss a gas pipeline across Afghanistan with the Taliban, as had other vested interests.

" The proposed natural gas pipeline would stretch from the Turkmenistan/Afghanistan border in southeastern Turkmenistan to Multan, Pakistan (790 miles, 1,271 kilometers), with a 400-mile (640-kilometer) extension to India under consideration. Estimated cost of the project is US$1.9 billion for the segment to Pakistan and an additional US$600 million for the extension to India."
Unocal.com. Who do you think they're talking to?

4) The Bush administration sent far too few ground troops to Afghanistan and thus allowed far too many Taliban and al-Qaida members to escape.

"U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, fresh off a trip to central Asia, said he wants to see more American ground troops in Afghanistan." Yeah I know it's Rummy, but he said it.

5) The Afghan government, in supporting the coalition in Iraq, was purely risible in that its non-army was purely American.

Do you think they are stupid enough to bite the hand that feeds them?

6) The American lives lost in Afghanistan have been wasted. (This I divine from the fact that this supposedly "antiwar" film is dedicated ruefully to all those killed there, as well as in Iraq.)

I don't know how or why he makes this assumption. This could only be his opinion. I don't think any lives are wasted in service of the country.

You don't REALLY want to hold my hand......do you?

doh

Quote:I don't think it is unreasonable to expect the President of the United States to understand the gravity of the situation that had just occurred, whether it was due to terrorism or lousy air traffic controllers.

You have no basis for thinking he didn't. The president does not run this country alone. People are in place to do the research and funnel him the information. Him leaving then, or waiting in an effort not to panic a bunch of kids, wouldn't have made a bit of difference and you know it.

Quote:Stand up and walk out of the room and get to work.

Why don't you enlighten us on what he should have done. What could he have done that wasn't already being done. Since you clearly have intimate knowledge of what was being done during the 30 or so minutes during and after the attacks, I'm sure you can tell us what that ONE man could have done.

Quote:I'm not particularly proud of having a dimwit for a president.

That's your opinion, it's not a fact. You don't get a MBA from Harvard and a Bachelors from Yale by being stupid. My guess is he could out think, out lead and out shine someone like you without even making an effort of it.

Quote:Now, if you're off your self-righteous soapbox, perhaps you can let me know why you think that the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES should consider that dealing with the worst terrorist attack on U.S. soil can wait for these kindergarteners' reading session.

And again I'll ask, can you enlighten us on what he should have been doing that wasn't already being done?

Quote: I'll buy the shock, but you're suggesting that dealing with the situation could wait.

What damage did waiting cause? What wasn't prevented that could have been, by HIM ALONE, during those few minutes?

Quote:And before you rail on liberals for destroying political debate in this country and being consumed by hatred, keep in mind that it was the pubs that spent over $70mil to impeach our President over his sexual relations.

I know lying under oath and formulating a cover up isn't something that is wrong in your mind, but for other's it's kind of a big deal. People like you make it about sex, rational people make it about the law, which is what it was about.

You still don't get it.

Moore tries to portray the Bush family as being in league with, and huge friends with, the bin Laden family. That exerpt you posted doesn't give that impression at all. They are acquainted with the through a business relationship. Moore tries to portray the relationship as some kind great friendship.

The fact that the Saudi's contribute to the economy is not was is taken issue with. Like Moore, you have no regard for the context of what Hitchens is saying. Moore presents this information in a deliberate and orchestrated way as to paint a picture of Bush being huge friends with bin Laden, going to Afghanistan strictly for a pipeline and deliberately sending too few ground troops to Afghanistan so that the Taliban and al queda could escape.

He's using far strung facts and putting them in an order as to paint the type of picture he wants. Vintage propoganda techniques. Tried and true.

Quote:You don't REALLY want to hold my hand......do you?

Definently not. Unless you need me to when you cross the street, I know your parents don't let you without an adult.

Quote:You have no basis for thinking he didn't. The president does not run this country alone. People are in place to do the research and funnel him the information. Him leaving then, or waiting in an effort not to panic a bunch of kids, wouldn't have made a bit of difference and you know it.

Why don't you enlighten us on what he should have done. What could he have done that wasn't already being done. Since you clearly have intimate knowledge of what was being done during the 30 or so minutes during and after the attacks, I'm sure you can tell us what that ONE man could have done.

It is asinine to suggest that cutting short reading to kindergarteners would 1) panic the little buggers, or 2) even be a consideration.

As for the rest of these statements, they do lend a lot of credence to the opinion that Dubya is nothing more than a figurehead and Cheney, Rove and their cronies are actually the true people in charge. I mean, what could one person do, even if he is only supposedly the most powerful man in the world. :rolleyes:

When FDR finally got word about Pearl Harbor, I'm willing to bet that he didn't continue watching the Charlie Chaplin movie he was viewing.

Quote:It is asinine to suggest that cutting short reading to kindergarteners would 1) panic the little buggers, or 2) even be a consideration.

So what you're saying is you have no freakin clue what him leaving at that moment could have done to help the situation or prevented from occuring. You have no basis for saying he should have left then, because you can't offer anything that would have been different if he had. Thanks for proving my point.

Quote:As for the rest of these statements, they do lend a lot of credence to the opinion that Dubya is nothing more than a figurehead and Cheney, Rove and their cronies are actually the true people in charge.

Ah an oldie but goodie from the haters on the left. I've got news for you fella. Every president has advisors. No president knows everything about everything. Running this country takes a lot of people. Most reasonable people understand this. Make no mistake, Bush makes the calls.

Quote:I mean, what could one person do, even if he is only supposedly the most powerful man in the world.

This statement shows the scope of your ignorance. I'll ask one more time, what could he have done had he left at that moment? What could ANY president have done? The answer is nothing. 9/11 was chaotic for going on an hour. There was no target for us to strike back at, no evidence as of yet as to who was to blame. There was nothing that could be done accept gather information. That's what his advisors are for.

Quote:When FDR finally got word about Pearl Harbor, I'm willing to bet that he didn't continue watching the Charlie Chaplin movie he was viewing.

Cute but moronic. I gurantee you what FDR did is the same as Bush. Waited for information to come in. He also spent the rest of the day conferring with military and congressional leaders. The same thing Bush did after leaving the school.

This is the problem when politics becomes personal like it has with people like you. Logic and reasonable thought are an impossibility. They are replaced with moronic statements and lame personal attacks.

Quote:When FDR finally got word about Pearl Harbor, I'm willing to bet that he didn't continue watching the Charlie Chaplin movie he was viewing

I'm willing to bet that FDR wasn't in a delicate public forum such as Bush was.

You still dodge the question that has been asked....What could Bush have possibly done in those extra 1 or 2 minutes?

Also, how do you know that he wasn't advised to keep doing what he was doing so the Secret Service could make sure that the school he was at was completely secure? How do you know that he wasn't advised to continue reading and not to panic?

You are a tool if you are making such an issue over President Bush sitting there for a minute. Hell, it's not like he was watching a basketball game or was in the middle of playing Halo on his X-Box.

STLouis Blazer Wrote:

Quote:When FDR finally got word about Pearl Harbor, I'm willing to bet that he didn't continue watching the Charlie Chaplin movie he was viewing

I'm willing to bet that FDR wasn't in a delicate public forum such as Bush was.

You still dodge the question that has been asked....What could Bush have possibly done in those extra 1 or 2 minutes?

Also, how do you know that he wasn't advised to keep doing what he was doing so the Secret Service could make sure that the school he was at was completely secure? How do you know that he wasn't advised to continue reading and not to panic?

You are a tool if you are making such an issue over President Bush sitting there for a minute. Hell, it's not like he was watching a basketball game or was in the middle of playing Halo on his X-Box.

Stop spinning it.

Clearly Bush could have:
- Captured OBL, Saddam, and all terrorist networks
- Quadrupled development in the third world
- Cured AIDS, Cancer, and other diseases
- Used his super secret time machine to turn back time and personally shoot down the planes taken over
- Used an intern as an ashtray

You guys have turned me. Because I obviously have never been privy to presidential security briefings and would thus have no idea what kind of decisions a President could actually make while our country is under seige, I'd much rather he sit with his thumb up his *** in a Florida schoolroom. After all, he was simply doing his part to see through his No Child Left Behind initiative. :rolleyes:

Considering there was still time from when the second plane hit the WTC until the planes hit the Pentagon and crashed in Pennsylvania, I think we can say that there were still direct, immediate decisions that could have been made or at least more quickly evaluated. Or have you pubs forgotten that NYC was not the only spot affected by these attacks? After all, at the time we didn't know that there would be only 2 or 18 hijacked planes. The whole point is that there were more important things to be doing at the time, and in the end I don't really place that much emphasis on those 5-10 minutes - I just find his reactions to be in line with the slow thinker that he is.

Quote:Because I obviously have never been privy to presidential security briefings and would thus have no idea what kind of decisions a President could actually make while our country is under seige, I'd much rather he sit with his thumb up his *** in a Florida schoolroom.&nbsp; After all, he was simply doing his part to see through his No Child Left Behind initiative.

This is the picuture perfect example of why you have exactly zero credibility in any of your criticisms. The gist of this is you say, "He should have left immediately and got to work." "Work doing what?" "I don't know, but he's a moron for not leaving and doing what he should of been." "What should he have been doing that wasn't already being done?" "I don't know but I hate the guy so I'm going to say whatever it takes to illustrate that point.":rolleyes:

Quote:Considering there was still time from when the second plane hit the WTC until the planes hit the Pentagon and crashed in Pennsylvania, I think we can say that there were still direct, immediate decisions that could have been made or at least more quickly evaluated.

There was a period of 16 minutes between the time the first plane hit the first tower and when the second tower was hit. Only in your world is that enough time to make a decision that could prevented the second from happening. :rolleyes:

Ideally yes, we would have been able to react quicker. But you seem, conveniently, to forget that 9/11 was utter CHAOS! We weren't prepared. The mechanisms to get the necessary information gathered weren't there or weren't working. Leaders don't make decisions without information and facts, that's your job. And in short time Bush spent in that room information was being gathered.

Quote:After all, at the time we didn't know that there would be only 2 or 18 hijacked planes.

Exactly junior. So enlighten us one what key decisions Bush could have been making WITHOUT the necessary info? And did you expect him to rush out and start making phone calls to everyone trying to get info? Do you honestly believe the Secret Service, FBI, CIA, Bush's national security advisors and other aids weren't already trying to gather that info and that the President leaving a few minutes early would change the speed at which that information came in?

Quote:The whole point is that there were more important things to be doing at the time,

Quote:and in the end I don't really place that much emphasis on those 5-10 minutes - I just find his reactions to be in line with the slow thinker that he is.

Way to totally contradict yourself. There were more important things for him to be doing, but you don't know what. But you really don't place that much emphasis on those 10 or so minutes, you just want to talk about it because you think Bush is a stupid head.:rolleyes:

Welcome to the moronic world of the left's version of political debate.:rolleyes:

Ninerfan1 Wrote:

Quote:No. Actually, there is a long, long list of things I've been bashing Bush on. I'd simply be more focused on other areas of that long list.

Sure you would.:rolleyes:

Quote:I'm not ticked.  What baffles me is how one person, you, can be so consumed with hate for another person that you'll say the things you do.  I don't care if people disagree with me. I love the fact that they do.  What I can't stand is people who do it based on no logic or reason, just simply hate.

I could bore you with the enormous list of public policy questions on which George W. Bush and I disagree. It's a long list. It covers just about every facet of American life. We disagree on a lot. And reasonable minds can disagree without hating each other.

I disagreed with George H.W. Bush on quite a bit, but I found things I could admire about him. I certainly didn't hate him.

I admire the way Bush I handled the first Persian Gulf War. I admire the way Bush I started the hard work of closing the huge budget deficits Reagan had left for him (and all of us).

In contrast, I find very, very little to admire in his son.

And I *hate* being being lied to.

Bush lied to us about Iraq. He intentionally misled most Americans into believing al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein were practically joined at the hip. He intentionally misled Americans into believing that Saddam Hussein bore some responsibility for the 9/11 massacre.

(Granted, Bush never actually *said* there was a Saddam-9/11 connection. But he knew damn well his words would lead people there. There is a reason most Americans still think there is a Saddam-9/11 connection. That reason is George W. Bush).

Republicans like to talk about "playing politics with national security." When it comes to Iraq, Bush has done that again, and again, and again.

So **** him.

I personally don't think George W. Bush's financial relationship with the bin Laden family relevant is any more relevant than the supposed "ties" between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda that Bush has been emphsizing for years.

But if Michael Moore wants to make hay with the Bush-bin Laden connection, I'm all for it. Bush has been making the same hay with the American people for years.

Bush deserves what is coming with this movie.

And it could be worse. It isn't as if Moore is accusing Bush of peddling drugs and having disloyal members of his staff killed. (You know, like Jerry Falwell's video).

Quote:

Quote:When the second plane hit, everyone in America knew this was no accident. Everyone in America knew it was a coordinated attack of some kind.

Knew and guessed are two different things. Like I said, you have the benefit of hind sight and as such you are incapable, and unwilling, to make an objective observation on the matter. I figured it was a coordinated attack, as I'm sure Bush did. But him bolting wouldn't have changed anything.

This is a ridiculous argument, but let us string it out:

Since we could only "guess" :rolleyes: the second plane striking the second tower was a coordinated attack upon America, should George W. Bush have hit a restaurant for a ncie leisurely lunch after reading his children's book?

Maybe he could have worked in some yoga or headed out for a nice jog after that.

After all, we could only "guess" the 9/11 massacre was a coordinated attack. I'm sure much smarter people that George W. Bush were working very hard to figure out whether or not it was actually a coordiated attack. Wouldn't want to jump to conclusions about this sort of thing. :rolleyes:

Maybe, after a jog, Bush could have taken a nap.

Do you see how absurd this is?

Quote:

Quote:We didn't know who was attacking. We didn't know if it was foreign terrorism, an attack from a foreign government or the work of American right wing wackos.

Right wing wackos? You really are out to lunch aren't you? Sorry to burst your bubble but the targets were the World Trade center, a symbol of capitalism and freedom, and the Pentagon, a symbol of military might. Only you left wing communist pacifists would target those places. So it was far more likely it was you and your moveon.org crowd behind it than any right wing group. If they'd flown a plane into an abortion clinic, they you might have a case.:rolleyes:

Are you suggesting that the Alfred P. Murrah Building is a symbol of, uh, "left wing communist pacificism?"

I've got news for you: Al Qaeda is very much a right-wing organization.

Quote:

Quote:First of all, the video of George W. Bush reading a children's book after being told a second plane struck the twin towers is not a lie.

No, the way in which Moore and you portray it is the lie.

How?

It happened.

O little ray of Niner sunshine, thanks ever so much for coming into our lives and brightening the outlook. With your absolute certainty, you once again show us the wisdom of this administration and those who support it when they say, "How dare you question us?"

Fire chiefs didn't sit in their station houses for seven minutes after the planes started hitting, telling their boys, "Advise me if this thing looks bad enough, and I'll be down to lead you." Rudy Guiliani didn't just sit in his office. Neither did Pataki. Most Americans who heard what was going on did what we do instinctively -- headed straight to our TVs, radios or computers to find out what was going on.

So no one should question why our commander-in-chief sat there ignorant of what was going as his country was being attacked for seven minutes? Why he was potentially a sitting duck himself and endangering the school full of kids around him?

That's the real problem -- that you and they don't even think their leadership should be subject to this kind of questioning. It's sheer arrogance, un-American, and, to borrow your favorite word, pathetic.