cbfranchise3 Wrote:Bagwell had 39 HR and 100 RBI last season, and is in the best shape he has been in in three years. And while Berkman wasn't a top five OF last year, he had 25 HR and 93 RBI, not a bad season at all. I just use that as his expected stats, we all know he is capable of more. .

How can you say Bagwell is in the best shape he's been in, in 3 years. In the last 4 seasons his numbers have been steadily declining.

As for berkman, how do we know he's capable of more? He had one big year, every other season he's done exactly the same thing. it looks like 2001 was a fluke.

you said Villone was bad because he was forced to go deeper into games. Could the reason he was bad be that he sucks? His career ERA is around 5.00. he's never been any good.

My point is about that Saarloos, Redding, Robertson, and Villone were all intended to be relievers when brought into the Astros organization, and had to start last season due to the Astros not having any starting pitchers.

Your sources are probably different from mine, meaning you have not heard the Wells for Blum trade.

Bagwell said himself that last year he was in the best shape he has been in in three years, and even if Berkman doesn't hit 2001 form, i will take 25 and 93.

Christiansen? Eyre? and Nen didn't play last year means Nenn didn't play and I was questioning you saying Christiansen and Eyre being very effective pitchers last year.

It is clear our arguments are getting more opinionated. You would take the Giants heading into next season and I would take the Astros. I am getting the feeling neither of us will change each others minds. My only point is that if you compare stats last year with the Astros current players, that in no way tells the story.

where did you get the idea that Eyre wasn't very effective? He was better than Ricky stone.

Saarloos, Robertson and villone weren't meant to be relievers, they were supposed to be starters. The Astros brought up Robertson because he was awesome in AAA.

Show me where there's a rumor about wells for blum. Earlier you said talks have heated up, so surely i'd see something, considering i've checked every baseball site imaginable, to find out about that rumor.

Ricky Stone and Scott Eyre are designed to be very similar players that pitch about 50 innings per year and are brought in in special situations. Last year, Eyre was right around 50, while Stone was around 80. Still, they put up very similar numbers despite Stone being overused. I would easily take Stone.

Despite what many people think, not everything can be found on ESPN or the internet. There are other sources besides these. I will give you three names that will probably mean nothing to you. Brandon Smith, Charles Wright, and Mark Sftoriun. If you can talk to them, you have your men.

I was wrong about Villone, after talking to some people he was actually supposed to be an emergency starter, my mistake. But Robertson, Saarloos, and Redding were signed by Houston and told they were to be relievers. They had to start in the minors and the majors out of necesity, and are obviously not designed to go deep into games.

first thing, eyre and stone aren't similar, eyre is a lefty specialist, and regardless who you compare him to, he was very effective. Robertson and Saarloos wreen't signed, they were drafted or else signed very low in the minors, and they were starters. Saarloos started 17 games in 2002. Robertson was a starter throughout his whole career in the minors. Redding was a SP prospect in the minors, no0t a reliever.

If you're going to trust your old friends for rumors, then maybe the Astros will get Vlad, Tejada and Petitte, and still keep Hidalgo. When a city gets excited about their team, rumors are created. If the rumor were that hot, surely an analyst would have mentioned it, or maybe the stupid announcers the 'stros have would've mentioned it, but they didn't.

i know the pirates are morons but no team would trade a proven young pitcher with a large upside who makes $370,000/year and is 27 years old, for a 31 year old platoon player who makes $1.5 million. No team in there right mind would do that.

Just because a person has started his entire young career doesn't mean he is meant to be a starter. The Astros have said Saarloos and Robertson were designed to come out of the bullpen, so all I am doing is trusting the Astros coaches over you. Stone is also a designer pitcher, but as I said was overused.

If you think all important rumors are reported by experts, you are not even close. Half of them are not. A team may have its reasons for not disclosing rumors to the media. You are right, it would be a idiotic trade for the Pirates, but it is a rumor.

where would people hear rumors if the rumors weren't from the media?

The Astros said Saarloos was a starter. I don't know about Robertson.

We were arguing who had the better bullpen, and who has the better bullpen now, not if saarloos and robertson were relievers or starters.

I don't know who ypur talking to, but Saarloos was told in his first practices in the minors he would be a reliever if he went to the majors.

Media v. Sources. Learn the difference.

Its impossible to argue about bullpens now, because we don't know who will be starters or relievers, or what moves will be made.

cbfranchise3 Wrote:I don't know who ypur talking to, but Saarloos was told in his first practices in the minors he would be a reliever if he went to the majors.

Media v. Sources. Learn the difference.

Its impossible to argue about bullpens now, because we don't know who will be starters or relievers, or what moves will be made.

Saarloos was drafted as a starting pitcher. maybe he was going to be worked into the rotation through the bullpen, but there is no way he was going to be a reliever.

What other source could you have besides the media? Unless you know somebody who works for the team. If you don't know anyone who works for the team than the only place you can get info is the media.

"Media v. Sources. Learn the difference"
-The media is a source.

The media is a collection of sources. ESPN is a collection of sources. ESPN sends out sources to get the info. It doesn't just appear.

cbfranchise3 Wrote:The media is a collection of sources. ESPN is a collection of sources. ESPN sends out sources to get the info. It doesn't just appear.

are you telling me the media necer starts any rumors? Usually the media hears one word about a player and they manipulate it into a rumor.

So are you telling me, the people you named before got their info from the media? If they did, which is what it sounds like, then how come i didn't hear it, considering i went to all the sports sites, i watched ESPN, and i read the Houston newspapers.

What do you mean "ESPN sends out sources to get the info"?

"Usually the media hears one word from a person..."

Exactly. They have to hear something from a source before they can report it. ESPN experts are sources, but ESPN is not a source, it is a media outlet.

ESPN is not the most reliable source around. Not everybody has access to every source. I have access to sources you don't, as you have access to sources I don't.

would care to enlighten me on the sources you have?

By the way, i've been reading the Houston newspapers, and they haven't mentioned any rumors at all, except for the Astros signing petitte. The papers not having any rumors is pretty telling about your "trade." I know in NY if the yanks or mets breathed a word about any player, the Post would immediately say the yankees were getting that player.

I haven't even heard of the Astros signing Pettite, it must be one of those "media" rumors. I hope its true though. That would be awesome for the Astros, getting back to the original topic of this thread.

how can you not hear about the 'stros signing Petitte? it's been all over the houston papers, the NY papers and the Astros web page on ESPN.com. Surely your friends have heard about that rumor, considering petitte is from somewhere in Texas decently close to the Astros.