GDawgs88 Wrote:

cbfranchise3 Wrote:20 games=ace.  Period.

Exactly. End of discussion. You can't penalize someone for having a good lineup behind him.

i would hardly say i'm penalizing him. He's a very good, not an ace. Don't even listen to CBF, he doesn't even believe in what he's saying.

flyingswoosh Wrote:

cbfranchise3 Wrote:20 games is the mark.  If you win 20 games, you are an ace that season.  I don't care if the ERA is 79.

Mike Krukow
Steve Stone
Ron Bryant
Mike Flanagan
Andy Pettitte
Mike Moore
Denny Neagle
and many others
all won 20 games in a season. None of those guys are aces. Yea, 20 wins is some mark. If you can tell me that these guys are aces, then you obviously aren't being rational. These guys were mediocre to very good pitchers, not aces. 20 wins isn't the benchmark for an ace.

That's a good point. But a lot of those guys had one fluke year and were pretty average other than that. Ortiz has been I think the 5th winningest pitcher in baseball since '99. He may be even higher than that.

again, ortiz is very good, but 20 wins was kind of a fluke. He's been pretty consistent throughout his career, as have other guys.

As for the people i named;
flanagan-career ERA of 3.90
stone-career ERA of 3.97
krukow-3.90

Ortiz career ERA is 3.97. So while you could say these guys had one career year, don't forget that a few of them have better lifetime ERA's than Ortiz.

[quote="flyingswoosh"] [quote="GDawgs88"] [quote="cbfranchise3"] 20 games=ace.

flyingswoosh Wrote:As for the people i named;
flanagan-career ERA of 3.90
stone-career ERA of 3.97
krukow-3.90

Ortiz career ERA is 3.97. So while you could say these guys had one career year, don't forget that a few of them have better lifetime ERA's than Ortiz.

Yeah, but there wasn't this much offense when those guys pitched.

GDawgs88 Wrote:

flyingswoosh Wrote:As for the people i named;
flanagan-career ERA of 3.90
stone-career ERA of 3.97
krukow-3.90

Ortiz career ERA is 3.97.  So while you could say these guys had one career year, don't forget that a few of them have better lifetime ERA's than Ortiz.

Yeah, but there wasn't this much offense when those guys pitched.

that's true, but it's hard to compare two different eras. Ortiz's 3.81 ERA was good, but even in today's era, a high 3 ERA isn't great.

[quote="cbfranchise3"] [quote="flyingswoosh"] [quote="GDawgs88"] [quote="cbfranchise3"] 20 games=ace.

[quote="cbfranchise3"] [quote="flyingswoosh"] [quote="GDawgs88"] [quote="cbfranchise3"] 20 games=ace.

[quote="flyingswoosh"] [quote="cbfranchise3"] [quote="flyingswoosh"] [quote="GDawgs88"] [quote="cbfranchise3"] 20 games=ace.