Since the Spanish-American war, the USA has been a global power and since WW2, we've become a super power. Prior to the fall of the USSR, we had a major counterweight to the power and influence of our national ideology, as well as a counter to our military might. When the Soviet Union ceased to be, I was only 21 years old, and one of my mentors told me that we'd become ever more present in global affairs, leaving domestic problems to exacerbate. My fatalistic mentor, who was quite smart I might add, pictured the USA's might being that which determines our downfall. She said it was a pattern of world history, that all nations succumb to their own power.
I'm not quite so fatalistic. But I do think domestic problems have only become worse since the early 90s.
Here's a list (abbreviated) of important domestic problems our nation currently has. These problems are often ignored and rarely even acknowledged. How does the saying go? "Ignorance is bliss..."

1. Drugs: big time problem in more ways than one. First there's the war against illicit drugs that takes center stage in efforts to fund its wrath. Yes, illicit drugs are bad. Addiction is bad, but we are a nation of the addicted, to much more than illicit drugs. We have a multi-billion dollar pharmaceutical industry that pushes its wares onto the masses. While crystal meth heads cook their swill, soccer moms are downing Paxil and Zoloft like it's going out of style. These moms (and some dads) think that their SSRIs are so great, why not give them to little Johnny who might be only 12 or 13 years old. So now we're doping our kids because they can't or won't pay attention in algebra class. ADHD drugs are the irresponsible parent's answer to discipline these days and god help us because some day these addicted kids will be chewing on Adderalls while their fingers are on the nuclear button.
Legal or illegal drugs are a problem. The former has dollars out the wazzou thrown at it to no avail while the latter enjoys proper consumption while the insurace companies make dough hand over fist.

2. Credit: if you ain't got it, then you'll live in squallor.
Back in my parents' day, one might be able to get around in the ol USA without credit. Back in the late 60s, one could go to college, get a decent job at a decent wage, save and pay cash and actually save money for life's rainy days. Today, college grads leave the university (in debt to their ears) to work at Starbuck's while Capital One accounts are drained at the ATM to pay rent.
Credit is getting out of hand. I'm not saying eliminate it altogether, but the consumer must have options (that is, the ability to buy cars, homes, day-to-day necessities, without having to go into serious, long-term debt). If we don't or can't put some controls on credit lending agencies, then we need to at least begin educating our youth as early as the ninth grade of how evil credit can be (if not used properly).
Ah, another addiction evident in our consumerist culture

3. Education: Teachers who have degrees in education don't learn what they teach!
The national dept of ed. sucks hardcore. While at Ole Miss, I often had classes with those majoring in education. I found that these people were seriously deficient in the areas they were going to go and teach in, i.e. English education majors took only 6 English classes, history edu majors took the same. God only knows what math and science education majors take. No wonder the Japanese are kicking our arses in these areas!
While we might need controls on credit rum amok, we need controls on the national dept of ed. They run that agency like an ayatolla and something's got to give. Education is the key to a future and public education, for the most part, is failing (regardless of recent Bush projects to hold teachers accountable. I mean, if teachers don't learn their subjects in college, how the heck can they teach kids). Also, the teacher accountability standards give teachers incentive to dumb down their lessons so the kids will certainly pass the standards set by some bureaucrats in D.C.

4. Industry: We've gone from manufacturing prowess to the service industry prowess.
Looking at all the fancy high-rise buildings in Dallas last week, I wondered what all goes on in there. I came to the realization that they are chopped full of folks sucking dollars off of other businesses, the service industry tycoons!
On the other end of the service industry, some straight A college kid with a degree in English can't teach but he can serve the hell out of some lattes!
What do we produce in the good ol USA other than bombs and cigarettes? Yeah, we make cars, that is we assemble cars that are made in Canada and Mexico with their rubber tires coming from Southeast Asia (again, assembled in the USA).
What we do make are logos. We put them on everything from Tommy Hilfiger to The North Face. If you ain't got a cool logo, then you ain't shee-aht. Now go get some Polo shirts made by some Indonesian kid with your capital one card!

5. Poverty: It ain't going away!
You can't just lock up all the durn poor people, although we'll surely try. Contrary to the popular myth, poor folks aren't lazy. No one who works 40 hours a week at the Golden Arches is lazy. And they are surly to you when you order hotcakes because that is all they have to look forward to for the rest of their lives.
Poor people need opportunities. How about putting them to work producing some crap, rather than outsourcing that to the third world?

6. Crime: most criminals have committed moral offenses!
If you smoke ganga, we'll lock you up, but have some Prozac! That makes sense. You can only legally use the drugs your doctor gives you and you need insurance to get that stuff!
I would venture to say that 75% of all crime in the USA is in some way related to legal and illegal use of drugs. Just locking people up won't make it all go away, it'll just make us spend more and more dough to house prisoners. But, out of sight, out of mind.
Think on this: if the only opportunity to get ahead in the ghettos and barrios of the U.S. (for those who don't or cannot have credit) is to sell some substance on the streets where they can make $400-$500 a day, rather than working at the Golden Arches, what do you think folks would do.
Again, tied into opportunities. Those with little or no choices on what to do in life will end up being pushers and entreprenuers in our vast 'shadow' economy!

7. Inefficient government: Elect me so I can continue raising money for reelection!
That's it in a nutshell. Our system is so convoluted that is what we get, somebody who wants to stay in office forever. If a term limit approaches, they'll use name recognition to run for another office of some sort. And why the heck does it cost so friggen much to elect some joker who'll just spend his time organizing particular lobby groups to throw cash at him and his/her cronies?
I've said this before, our government does not govern, they raise money to throw at service industries during campaigns!

8. Divisions among Americans: Fear drives the majority in this nation.
We are so scared of one another that people are building elaborate "getaway" communities so they can get the hell away from other Americans. What ever happened to our sense of community? Can't we get along on somethings?
No we can't. We hate our fellow Americans but we won't admit it. We drive around with 'support our troops' bumper stickers, but that 19 year old kid with an M16 is too unworthy to live in the gated districts. The only thing that kid is worthy enough to do is go off to some god-awful country and get shot at!

Driving to Dallas for the Cotton Bowl, I thought of how durn good I got it. To be able to take off for four days and go to some gigantic city so I can swim in an ocean of beer while gulping down copious amounts of food is indeed a priviledge. I saw many other priviledged Americans doing the same. In the meantime, American youths are coming home in bags yet we still go about our annual holiday routines. We don't even notice the little injustices right under our own eyes. A kid flips burgers at the golden arches or another pushes buggies at Wal-Mart when the only real dream of making it is to be able to run, slide, jump, slam a dunk, or hit .375. If they fail on this, or injure themselves in the process, then all they have to get ahead is resort to cooking up meth in a trailer park.

This might be "over-the-top" and it is definitely cynical. But things are amiss in my country and it's high time some other folks take notice because problems, if left ignored, don't go away. They fester and become cancerous.

If America is truly the greatest, then certainly we can find time and ability to bomb brown folks (if that is what truly makes us great) while fixing domestic problems as well!

So, for all of you out there who think I don't give a rats arse about some poor oppressed kids in the middle east, well I say hell yeah, I don't give a rats arse about them. I care about Americans first and we need to "promote the general welfare" of our own people before galavantin around the globe acting like our shee-aht don't stink!

KlutzDio I Wrote:Since the Spanish-American war, the USA has been a global power and since WW2, we've become a super power. Prior to the fall of the USSR, we had a major counterweight to the power and influence of our national ideology, as well as a counter to our military might. When the Soviet Union ceased to be, I was only 21 years old, and one of my mentors told me that we'd become ever more present in global affairs, leaving domestic problems to exacerbate. My fatalistic mentor, who was quite smart I might add, pictured the USA's might being that which determines our downfall. She said it was a pattern of world history, that all nations succumb to their own power.
I'm not quite so fatalistic. But I do think domestic problems have only become worse since the early 90s.
Here's a list (abbreviated) of important domestic problems our nation currently has. These problems are often ignored and rarely even acknowledged. How does the saying go? "Ignorance is bliss..."

1. Drugs: big time problem in more ways than one. First there's the war against illicit drugs that takes center stage in efforts to fund its wrath. Yes, illicit drugs are bad. Addiction is bad, but we are a nation of the addicted, to much more than illicit drugs. We have a multi-billion dollar pharmaceutical industry that pushes its wares onto the masses. While crystal meth heads cook their swill, soccer moms are downing Paxil and Zoloft like it's going out of style. These moms (and some dads) think that their SSRIs are so great, why not give them to little Johnny who might be only 12 or 13 years old. So now we're doping our kids because they can't or won't pay attention in algebra class. ADHD drugs are the irresponsible parent's answer to discipline these days and god help us because some day these addicted kids will be chewing on Adderalls while their fingers are on the nuclear button.
Legal or illegal drugs are a problem. The former has dollars out the wazzou thrown at it to no avail while the latter enjoys proper consumption while the insurace companies make dough hand over fist.

2. Credit: if you ain't got it, then you'll live in squallor.
Back in my parents' day, one might be able to get around in the ol USA without credit. Back in the late 60s, one could go to college, get a decent job at a decent wage, save and pay cash and actually save money for life's rainy days. Today, college grads leave the university (in debt to their ears) to work at Starbuck's while Capital One accounts are drained at the ATM to pay rent.
Credit is getting out of hand. I'm not saying eliminate it altogether, but the consumer must have options (that is, the ability to buy cars, homes, day-to-day necessities, without having to go into serious, long-term debt). If we don't or can't put some controls on credit lending agencies, then we need to at least begin educating our youth as early as the ninth grade of how evil credit can be (if not used properly).
Ah, another addiction evident in our consumerist culture

3. Education: Teachers who have degrees in education don't learn what they teach!
The national dept of ed. sucks hardcore. While at Ole Miss, I often had classes with those majoring in education. I found that these people were seriously deficient in the areas they were going to go and teach in, i.e. English education majors took only 6 English classes, history edu majors took the same. God only knows what math and science education majors take. No wonder the Japanese are kicking our arses in these areas!
While we might need controls on credit rum amok, we need controls on the national dept of ed. They run that agency like an ayatolla and something's got to give. Education is the key to a future and public education, for the most part, is failing (regardless of recent Bush projects to hold teachers accountable. I mean, if teachers don't learn their subjects in college, how the heck can they teach kids). Also, the teacher accountability standards give teachers incentive to dumb down their lessons so the kids will certainly pass the standards set by some bureaucrats in D.C.

4. Industry: We've gone from manufacturing prowess to the service industry prowess.
Looking at all the fancy high-rise buildings in Dallas last week, I wondered what all goes on in there. I came to the realization that they are chopped full of folks sucking dollars off of other businesses, the service industry tycoons!
On the other end of the service industry, some straight A college kid with a degree in English can't teach but he can serve the hell out of some lattes!
What do we produce in the good ol USA other than bombs and cigarettes? Yeah, we make cars, that is we assemble cars that are made in Canada and Mexico with their rubber tires coming from Southeast Asia (again, assembled in the USA).
What we do make are logos. We put them on everything from Tommy Hilfiger to The North Face. If you ain't got a cool logo, then you ain't shee-aht. Now go get some Polo shirts made by some Indonesian kid with your capital one card!

5. Poverty: It ain't going away!
You can't just lock up all the durn poor people, although we'll surely try. Contrary to the popular myth, poor folks aren't lazy. No one who works 40 hours a week at the Golden Arches is lazy. And they are surly to you when you order hotcakes because that is all they have to look forward to for the rest of their lives.
Poor people need opportunities. How about putting them to work producing some crap, rather than outsourcing that to the third world?

6. Crime: most criminals have committed moral offenses!
If you smoke ganga, we'll lock you up, but have some Prozac! That makes sense. You can only legally use the drugs your doctor gives you and you need insurance to get that stuff!
I would venture to say that 75% of all crime in the USA is in some way related to legal and illegal use of drugs. Just locking people up won't make it all go away, it'll just make us spend more and more dough to house prisoners. But, out of sight, out of mind.
Think on this: if the only opportunity to get ahead in the ghettos and barrios of the U.S. (for those who don't or cannot have credit) is to sell some substance on the streets where they can make $400-$500 a day, rather than working at the Golden Arches, what do you think folks would do.
Again, tied into opportunities. Those with little or no choices on what to do in life will end up being pushers and entreprenuers in our vast 'shadow' economy!

7. Inefficient government: Elect me so I can continue raising money for reelection!
That's it in a nutshell. Our system is so convoluted that is what we get, somebody who wants to stay in office forever. If a term limit approaches, they'll use name recognition to run for another office of some sort. And why the heck does it cost so friggen much to elect some joker who'll just spend his time organizing particular lobby groups to throw cash at him and his/her cronies?
I've said this before, our government does not govern, they raise money to throw at service industries during campaigns!

8. Divisions among Americans: Fear drives the majority in this nation.
We are so scared of one another that people are building elaborate "getaway" communities so they can get the hell away from other Americans. What ever happened to our sense of community? Can't we get along on somethings?
No we can't. We hate our fellow Americans but we won't admit it. We drive around with 'support our troops' bumper stickers, but that 19 year old kid with an M16 is too unworthy to live in the gated districts. The only thing that kid is worthy enough to do is go off to some god-awful country and get shot at!

Driving to Dallas for the Cotton Bowl, I thought of how durn good I got it. To be able to take off for four days and go to some gigantic city so I can swim in an ocean of beer while gulping down copious amounts of food is indeed a priviledge. I saw many other priviledged Americans doing the same. In the meantime, American youths are coming home in bags yet we still go about our annual holiday routines. We don't even notice the little injustices right under our own eyes. A kid flips burgers at the golden arches or another pushes buggies at Wal-Mart when the only real dream of making it is to be able to run, slide, jump, slam a dunk, or hit .375. If they fail on this, or injure themselves in the process, then all they have to get ahead is resort to cooking up meth in a trailer park.

This might be "over-the-top" and it is definitely cynical. But things are amiss in my country and it's high time some other folks take notice because problems, if left ignored, don't go away. They fester and become cancerous.

If America is truly the greatest, then certainly we can find time and ability to bomb brown folks (if that is what truly makes us great) while fixing domestic problems as well!

So, for all of you out there who think I don't give a rats arse about some poor oppressed kids in the middle east, well I say hell yeah, I don't give a rats arse about them. I care about Americans first and we need to "promote the general welfare" of our own people before galavantin around the globe acting like our shee-aht don't stink!

i didn't think i'd be agreeing with you at all, but surprisingly i can see where you're coming from. You don't seem to like the no child left behind act, but it creates competition among schools, which is the only way to improve them (free market). the teachers' unions should take a lot of blame. They're corrupt and criminals for that matter.

Credit: You seem to think it's everyone's fault, except the people with the credit cards. Being a Libertarian, i believe in personal responsibility.

Poverty: Actually most of these people are lazy. They're like that because welfare is stupid and has made them dependant. You act as if people will never get promoted in 40 years of working, when in fact i know many people at McDonalds who've worked for 1-2 years and have gotten 2 raises each and a handful of promotions. These people also say it's easy to move up the ladder in these chains or franchises.

Crime: this is always a problem, but again, as a libertarian i believe all drugs should be legalized. Where is the freakin personal responsibility. just because selling drugs is one of the few ways to make money, doesn't mean you should do it. If parents cared about their children's education, the children wouldn't grow up to sell drugs.
read this: <a href='http://www.lp.org/issues/program/vcd.html' target='_blank'>http://www.lp.org/issues/program/vcd.html</a>

Overall, you don't seem to understand that their is much class mobility. You should read "the millionaire next door." the people who are in the lowest income bracket now, won't be there in 5 years.

You don't want these companies to send jobs overseas, but what would you do if you could hire people who are more efficient, and cheaper?

Thanks for your response.

1. People who work at the golden arches aren't lazy because the food service industry requires hard work. People who can stick with such a sh*t job move up because of turnover which is quite rapid in those kinds of businesses. Lazy people don't move up in that line of work. Lazy people are priviledged kids (C students in college) straight out of college who look toward mommy and daddy for help (and get it).
And, most golden arches managers make around $31,000 a year for about 60-75 hours a week, which is still pretty crummy considering all the bullcrap they have to deal with. The big difference between them and the burger flippers is the managers probably get some high-priced insurance benefits and guaranteed vacation time.
2. If parents have only one choice in schooling opps. for their kids and the only choice is a bad school with bad teachers then the kids don't benefit from the system. This goes back to the whole thing about the national dept of ed. and how they are facists in that department. Liberal fascists that is. They seem to believe that the only qualified teachers are those who majored in education, which is about 78 hours of psychology and classroom management classes.
Improving schools should start at the colleges that offer education degrees. Teachers in training should be properly trained to teach kids, not to evaluate them pyschologically and figure out which ones need ADHD or SSRI meds.
I, for one, am qualified to teach several high school subjects (civics, history, speech and English) but I don't have a degree in education. therefore, I'll need to go back to school on my dime (no fin aid for those not seeking another degree, or I could take one of those crash courses toward licensure at $5700) and take at least 18 hours of psychogarbled education classes (that are built around common sense). To be licensed as a teacher, I'd have to pay a bunch of other money to the state to get licensed, e.g. taking a series of tests at $120 a pop. Now I have money and could do this if I choose. I could leave my job now, making over $26 large a year, and spend money to get licensed as a teacher to make $23,500 teaching in my state. For a kid right out of college, this is certainly difficult especially considering their credit is already maxed out. Even if they did want to teach, without an education degree, what on earth would compel them to do it?
Bottom line, teachers (those with edu degrees) don't know how to teach. If I had kids, I'd home school or go parochial!
3. I believe drugs should be legalized as well. Kids are receiving inconsistent messages from adults in relation to drug use. Some drugs are okay because they manage your behavior while other drugs are bad because certain powers deemed them so.
For a society so tolerant of pharmaceuticals, booze and cigarettes, why the heck is marijuana illegal?
4. Credit: it is an addiction and should be treated as so. In the jr. highs, kids should begin learning what credit is and how it can be abused. As it is now, kids leaving the public school system have very little real-world skills.
5. Credit is not something people are born with, it must be built. Those who are too poor to build credit will never get out of their situation, with some exceptions, of course. They will never get out of their situation because they'll get some high interest credit bestowed upon them at some point and then they'll either default or spend the rest of their lives repaying it.
Me personally, I've gone down in income steadily since 1990. I earned a college degree in 1999 after making $36,870 in 1996 without a degree. Now I'm making below the poverty level. So, my hard work in going to college at a late age has been a detriment to my earning capability. But there's hope on the horizon. If my job as a scum sucking liberal journalist doesn't pan out, I can always serve lattes (I make a mean latte)!
6. Sending jobs overseas is about values. We value certain labor "rights" if you will, for American workers, while those brown folks overseas are not worthy of the same rights. If you weren't born American and are not an American worker then it sucks for you because you'll be making American garbage for our consumerist culture. And, those of us who value such crap, i.e the stuff sold at Wal-mart and the like, don't value it enough to pay more to have it made in the USA. This is entirely about responsibility!

You mention responsibility. If we buy the crap little Indonesian kids make in sweat shops, then the American consumer is responsible for that situation, as are CEO's who outsource to those nations.

Overall, I believe in responsibility as well. As American citizens we are responsible for telling our government where they are failing. I think our government, locally and nationally, are failing the majority of Americans. Americans should be better decision makers in electing folks. We should continually weed out the politicos instead of reelecting them. If a politico realizes he or she may not get reelected when they are in their first term, then they might actually do some work so that they may compel the electorate that they are worthy of reelection.

My whole post was about responsibility. It is all of our responsibility to acknowledge our society's failings and begin working toward improving those failings! :drink:

Thanks again for your response which was more serious than my initial post (laden with cynicisms). Thanks for actually answering it rather than just insulting me!

KlutzDio I Wrote:Thanks for actually answering it rather than just insulting me!

no problem, and i'm going to respond again, but i have to go out now, and i don't have the time to go in depth.

KlutzDio I Wrote:Thanks for your response.

1. People who work at the golden arches aren't lazy because the food service industry requires hard work. People who can stick with such a sh*t job move up because of turnover which is quite rapid in those kinds of businesses. Lazy people don't move up in that line of work. Lazy people are priviledged kids (C students in college) straight out of college who look toward mommy and daddy for help (and get it).
And, most golden arches managers make around $31,000 a year for about 60-75 hours a week, which is still pretty crummy considering all the bullcrap they have to deal with. The big difference between them and the burger flippers is the managers probably get some high-priced insurance benefits and guaranteed vacation time.
2. If parents have only one choice in schooling opps. for their kids and the only choice is a bad school with bad teachers then the kids don't benefit from the system. This goes back to the whole thing about the national dept of ed. and how they are facists in that department. Liberal fascists that is. They seem to believe that the only qualified teachers are those who majored in education, which is about 78 hours of psychology and classroom management classes.
Improving schools should start at the colleges that offer education degrees. Teachers in training should be properly trained to teach kids, not to evaluate them pyschologically and figure out which ones need ADHD or SSRI meds.
I, for one, am qualified to teach several high school subjects (civics, history, speech and English) but I don't have a degree in education. therefore, I'll need to go back to school on my dime (no fin aid for those not seeking another degree, or I could take one of those crash courses toward licensure at $5700) and take at least 18 hours of psychogarbled education classes (that are built around common sense). To be licensed as a teacher, I'd have to pay a bunch of other money to the state to get licensed, e.g. taking a series of tests at $120 a pop. Now I have money and could do this if I choose. I could leave my job now, making over $26 large a year, and spend money to get licensed as a teacher to make $23,500 teaching in my state. For a kid right out of college, this is certainly difficult especially considering their credit is already maxed out. Even if they did want to teach, without an education degree, what on earth would compel them to do it?
Bottom line, teachers (those with edu degrees) don't know how to teach. If I had kids, I'd home school or go parochial!
3. I believe drugs should be legalized as well. Kids are receiving inconsistent messages from adults in relation to drug use. Some drugs are okay because they manage your behavior while other drugs are bad because certain powers deemed them so.
For a society so tolerant of pharmaceuticals, booze and cigarettes, why the heck is marijuana illegal?
4. Credit: it is an addiction and should be treated as so. In the jr. highs, kids should begin learning what credit is and how it can be abused. As it is now, kids leaving the public school system have very little real-world skills.
5. Credit is not something people are born with, it must be built. Those who are too poor to build credit will never get out of their situation, with some exceptions, of course. They will never get out of their situation because they'll get some high interest credit bestowed upon them at some point and then they'll either default or spend the rest of their lives repaying it.
Me personally, I've gone down in income steadily since 1990. I earned a college degree in 1999 after making $36,870 in 1996 without a degree. Now I'm making below the poverty level. So, my hard work in going to college at a late age has been a detriment to my earning capability. But there's hope on the horizon. If my job as a scum sucking liberal journalist doesn't pan out, I can always serve lattes (I make a mean latte)!
6. Sending jobs overseas is about values. We value certain labor "rights" if you will, for American workers, while those brown folks overseas are not worthy of the same rights. If you weren't born American and are not an American worker then it sucks for you because you'll be making American garbage for our consumerist culture. And, those of us who value such crap, i.e the stuff sold at Wal-mart and the like, don't value it enough to pay more to have it made in the USA. This is entirely about responsibility!

You mention responsibility. If we buy the crap little Indonesian kids make in sweat shops, then the American consumer is responsible for that situation, as are CEO's who outsource to those nations.

Overall, I believe in responsibility as well. As American citizens we are responsible for telling our government where they are failing. I think our government, locally and nationally, are failing the majority of Americans. Americans should be better decision makers in electing folks. We should continually weed out the politicos instead of reelecting them. If a politico realizes he or she may not get reelected when they are in their first term, then they might actually do some work so that they may compel the electorate that they are worthy of reelection.

My whole post was about responsibility. It is all of our responsibility to acknowledge our society's failings and begin working toward improving those failings! :drink:

Thanks again for your response which was more serious than my initial post (laden with cynicisms). Thanks for actually answering it rather than just insulting me!

1) most of these extremely poor people are lazy, because many don't work and the ones who do work in food service don't work full time. people on welfare are, for the most part, lazy. I understand you weren't talking about people on welfare, but i thought i should throw that in. Lazy people are not the priviledged kids, they are kids who are from welfare dependant families. I shouldn't say all poor people are lazy, because they aren't. But the ones who aren't lazy came from AFDC-type families.
2) this brings me back to vouchers. Vouchers would force schools to make a change and most likely raise the bar. Most teachers don't take the national certification tests, so you end up with people who aren't qualified. Also, teachers in NC can tenure in 4 years. What kind of crap is that. Any crappy tea cher can tenure. The biggest problem with teaching might be the lack of incentive. if a teacher works much harder than another, he doesn't see another dime. Incentive packages have been proposed, but the democrats and their lap dogs, the teachers' union vetoed them.
3) we seem to agree on Drugs.
4) the thing about credit is, you know what you're getting into. if you don't want to use credit and be tempted, get a debit card (i know a few people who do that).

Can you explain a little more about the outsourcing part? i'm not really following you. What do you mean by "the american consumer is responsible?"

First, kick [booty] initial post thread, Dio. I often wonder about all of these same problems as I wander here and there in our great land. Funny how these same issues are never addressed by ANYONE running for ANY public office. . .

Sorry. I don't want to get off into a rant that promotes cynicism and thus encourages people to not vote, etc. . .Anyway.

I'm sure you've seen Barbara Eihrenreich's book Nickel and Dimed which is all about the working poor in this country. Noam Chomsky talks about the problem a lot, too. We are still moving farther and farther towards a bi-polar world, to me. The first two classes are in alliance, to me.

Power ELITE (5% of the population who own 90% of the wealth in this country)

Intelligentsia (20%--educated class, heavily bought in)

Service/Working Poor (75%)

Now, the people who compose the 75% are going to wind up in service of the other 25%, which is nothing more than SLAVERY. God, at least the slaves got free housing and insurance.

But those 75% are ANYTHING but lazy. Mostly, they work round the clock at two or three jobs in order to just make their bills. The lazy folks are the one at the top who inherited their money from Mommy and Daddy and who've never worked a day in their life! So please, just stop with the "lazy" people in poverty stereotype! Take a calculator and see what the minimum wage X 40 hours a week X 52 weeks a year gives you!

The people who make it are the people who BUY IN to the system. Those who don't buy in are sloughed off!

More later when I have the time. . .

joebordenrebel Wrote:First, kick [booty] initial post thread, Dio. I often wonder about all of these same problems as I wander here and there in our great land. Funny how these same issues are never addressed by ANYONE running for ANY public office. . .

Sorry. I don't want to get off into a rant that promotes cynicism and thus encourages people to not vote, etc. . .Anyway.

I'm sure you've seen Barbara Eihrenreich's book Nickel and Dimed which is all about the working poor in this country. Noam Chomsky talks about the problem a lot, too. We are still moving farther and farther towards a bi-polar world, to me. The first two classes are in alliance, to me.

Power ELITE (5% of the population who own 90% of the wealth in this country)

Intelligentsia (20%--educated class, heavily bought in)

Service/Working Poor (75%)

Now, the people who compose the 75% are going to wind up in service of the other 25%, which is nothing more than SLAVERY. God, at least the slaves got free housing and insurance.

But those 75% are ANYTHING but lazy. Mostly, they work round the clock at two or three jobs in order to just make their bills. The lazy folks are the one at the top who inherited their money from Mommy and Daddy and who've never worked a day in their life! So please, just stop with the "lazy" people in poverty stereotype! Take a calculator and see what the minimum wage X 40 hours a week X 52 weeks a year gives you!

The people who make it are the people who BUY IN to the system. Those who don't buy in are sloughed off!

More later when I have the time. . .

i'm not going to resort to insults like ann coulter, but most of what you said is a fallacy.

A huge percentage of extremely poor people are welfare dependant. Which equals lazy. the other people you mention, who work really hard for minimum wage, are made up. if you aren't lazy, you aren't making minimum wage, it's as simple as that. I have a friend who works at Harris Teeter and has moved from minimum wage to the produce section in a short amount of time. What you say is false.

You are right in saying that the middle class is shrinking. If we got rid of SS, we could get rid of the lower class, or the poor class, in a matter of speaking. But that's a different topic.

Let's pick on the people who inherit money. What a joke. You act like those people are a majority. All i know is that around 85% of all millionaires are first generation millionaires, who made themselves. So please don't throw the inheritance-people at me.

i'm not going to resort to insults like ann coulter, but most of what you said is a fallacy.

A huge percentage of extremely poor people are welfare dependant. Which equals lazy. the other people you mention, who work really hard for minimum wage, are made up. if you aren't lazy, you aren't making minimum wage, it's as simple as that. I have a friend who works at Harris Teeter and has moved from minimum wage to the produce section in a short amount of time. What you say is false.

You are right in saying that the middle class is shrinking. If we got rid of SS, we could get rid of the lower class, or the poor class, in a matter of speaking. But that's a different topic.

Let's pick on the people who inherit money. What a joke. You act like those people are a majority. All i know is that around 85% of all millionaires are first generation millionaires, who made themselves. So please don't throw the inheritance-people at me. [/quote]
Most of what Ann Coulter is saying is a fallacy. I tried to read slander, but chapters 1 and 2 were long, drawn out strawman and appeal to emotion fallacies. It was intellectually unappealing from that point forward. Also, her bibliography was convoluted and she used too many ellipses....marks when quoting people.

Most GOPpers I know says she gives the GOP a bad name, especially since she admits she's promicuous, non-fundamental in her Christian faith, smokes, gambles and basically doesn't follow any of the hard-line moralisms that she alludes to in her demonizations of the Left.

Swoosh,
Welfare is becoming a thing of the past. After one is on the rolls for six to nine months, they put you to work. Even so, only about 15% of the population is on it long term these days. Still, welfare payments don't nearly equal what it did in the eighties. You need to check facts on this because it has changed since Newt and Clinton hammered out the welfare reform act. I know for a fact, after you 've been on it two consecutive years you are automatically kicked out of the system and can't reapply for two more years. If they find you work, you must take it to stay in the system. Welfare-to-work is what they call it.

Lazy people work minimum wage jobs. I know many folks who had kids too early and they didn't go to college. Most work food service and dept. stores. They start at $6 an hour in my area of the nation. After 10 months of work at these service industry hell-holes, they might start making between $7-8. It's not min. wage, I'll give you that. Still, can anyone really raise a family, buy cars, build credit, own a home and all the incedentals in between on a two-worker household, each making less than $16,000 a year? Even a single person making around $16,000 a year can't make it without some kind of help (and welfare does not apply unless it's a single mother, and even those are kicked out of the system after two years).

Most wage laborers that I've met work two and three jobs to make it, even if they are married. That is not my definition of lazy.

Lazy are the professional crystal meth cooks who charge outrageous prices for that crap. Lazy are the priviledged kids at Ole Miss (and other state U's) going to school on fin. aid when they don't really need it, get an allowance of about $2000 per month, make C grades and then get some cushy position after graduation because mommy and daddy have connections.

Working your way up from the bottom is more experienced by folks who worked their way through college, are maxed out on student loans, and who pay ungodly rents on a salary of less than $30 a year.

Swoosh,

I think you are confusing terms here. Working poor are not lazy for the most part. If you don't believe me, follow someone to work at Wal-Mart and then follow them to their second job afterwards. That does not constitute laziness.
I agree there are some on welfare who try their darndest to bilk the system. These are probably less and less since the 80s and all the oversight of the system these days.

Barbara Einrenreich's book Five and Dimed is about her experience of working min. wage jobs (those jobs that pay less than $10 per hour).
Her publisher told her to work 2 years without her annual income that a writer makes (she was a writer who agreed to this social experiment). She gave up her $45,000 a year salary as some editor and decided to start from scratch and see if those working in service industry hell could make a living.
Her story is incredible. She speaks of the way these folks live and after I read this book, I could see how exploited wage workers are, for the most part.

Waitressing is a common profession among the non-college grads of this nation. Did you know they make only $2.14 per hour + tips. If you live in a good area then they clean up, usually making about $32000 per year. But the majority of waitresses in this country are stiffed regularly and deal with the 10% tippers. Waitresses bust their arses for an avg. salary of about $19,000 per year.
This serves as only one example of service industry hell.

Your comment about millionaires is interesting.

First, millionaires probably started out in the upper middle class anyway. Those in the upper middle class can get through life a little easier than the working poor because the former has credit. Not only that, but upper middle class parents generally realize they don't want their kids slaving away in service industry hell so they help them by either co-signing on loans, arranging jobs, or simply giving their kids money.

No one is saying the millionaires are the only ones helping their kids. This is about opportunity and you have to have money (or at least your parents have to have money) to make a decent living in this country.

I challenge you, Swoosh. Go get a job at Wal-Mart, starbucks, the golden arches, and come tell me those folks are lazy. Come tell me you can make it at those jobs.

KlutzDio I Wrote:

flyingswoosh,Jan 10 2004, 09:40 PM Wrote:

i'm not going to resort to insults like ann coulter, but most of what you said is a fallacy.

A huge percentage of extremely poor people are welfare dependant. Which equals lazy. the other people you mention, who work really hard for minimum wage, are made up. if you aren't lazy, you aren't making minimum wage, it's as simple as that. I have a friend who works at Harris Teeter and has moved from minimum wage to the produce section in a short amount of time. What you say is false.

You are right in saying that the middle class is shrinking. If we got rid of SS, we could get rid of the lower class, or the poor class, in a matter of speaking. But that's a different topic.

Let's pick on the people who inherit money. What a joke. You act like those people are a majority. All i know is that around 85% of all millionaires are first generation millionaires, who made themselves. So please don't throw the inheritance-people at me.

Most of what Ann Coulter is saying is a fallacy. I tried to read slander, but chapters 1 and 2 were long, drawn out strawman and appeal to emotion fallacies. It was intellectually unappealing from that point forward. Also, her bibliography was convoluted and she used too many ellipses....marks when quoting people.

Most GOPpers I know says she gives the GOP a bad name, especially since she admits she's promicuous, non-fundamental in her Christian faith, smokes, gambles and basically doesn't follow any of the hard-line moralisms that she alludes to in her demonizations of the Left.

Swoosh,
Welfare is becoming a thing of the past. After one is on the rolls for six to nine months, they put you to work. Even so, only about 15% of the population is on it long term these days. Still, welfare payments don't nearly equal what it did in the eighties. You need to check facts on this because it has changed since Newt and Clinton hammered out the welfare reform act. I know for a fact, after you 've been on it two consecutive years you are automatically kicked out of the system and can't reapply for two more years. If they find you work, you must take it to stay in the system. Welfare-to-work is what they call it.

Lazy people work minimum wage jobs. I know many folks who had kids too early and they didn't go to college. Most work food service and dept. stores. They start at $6 an hour in my area of the nation. After 10 months of work at these service industry hell-holes, they might start making between $7-8. It's not min. wage, I'll give you that. Still, can anyone really raise a family, buy cars, build credit, own a home and all the incedentals in between on a two-worker household, each making less than $16,000 a year? Even a single person making around $16,000 a year can't make it without some kind of help (and welfare does not apply unless it's a single mother, and even those are kicked out of the system after two years).

Most wage laborers that I've met work two and three jobs to make it, even if they are married. That is not my definition of lazy.

Lazy are the professional crystal meth cooks who charge outrageous prices for that crap. Lazy are the priviledged kids at Ole Miss (and other state U's) going to school on fin. aid when they don't really need it, get an allowance of about $2000 per month, make C grades and then get some cushy position after graduation because mommy and daddy have connections.

Working your way up from the bottom is more experienced by folks who worked their way through college, are maxed out on student loans, and who pay ungodly rents on a salary of less than $30 a year.

Swoosh,

I think you are confusing terms here. Working poor are not lazy for the most part. If you don't believe me, follow someone to work at Wal-Mart and then follow them to their second job afterwards. That does not constitute laziness.
I agree there are some on welfare who try their darndest to bilk the system. These are probably less and less since the 80s and all the oversight of the system these days.

Barbara Einrenreich's book Five and Dimed is about her experience of working min. wage jobs (those jobs that pay less than $10 per hour).
Her publisher told her to work 2 years without her annual income that a writer makes (she was a writer who agreed to this social experiment). She gave up her $45,000 a year salary as some editor and decided to start from scratch and see if those working in service industry hell could make a living.
Her story is incredible. She speaks of the way these folks live and after I read this book, I could see how exploited wage workers are, for the most part.

Waitressing is a common profession among the non-college grads of this nation. Did you know they make only $2.14 per hour + tips. If you live in a good area then they clean up, usually making about $32000 per year. But the majority of waitresses in this country are stiffed regularly and deal with the 10% tippers. Waitresses bust their arses for an avg. salary of about $19,000 per year.
This serves as only one example of service industry hell.

Your comment about millionaires is interesting.

First, millionaires probably started out in the upper middle class anyway. Those in the upper middle class can get through life a little easier than the working poor because the former has credit. Not only that, but upper middle class parents generally realize they don't want their kids slaving away in service industry hell so they help them by either co-signing on loans, arranging jobs, or simply giving their kids money.

No one is saying the millionaires are the only ones helping their kids. This is about opportunity and you have to have money (or at least your parents have to have money) to make a decent living in this country.

I challenge you, Swoosh. Go get a job at Wal-Mart, starbucks, the golden arches, and come tell me those folks are lazy. Come tell me you can make it at those jobs. [/quote]
first, i just want to say that i'm anti-ann coulter. I didn't mean to make anyone think i was a fan of hers.

2) Nickel and dimed is a crap, liberal book that made many UNC students protest (they were forced to read it).

3) i never knew that about welfare, but i still do know, that welfare creates more welfare. I've also heard that the "workfare" or welfare to work, is complete garbage and it doesn't work. Most of those welfare people don't work two jobs and they're always looking for handouts. You say thse working people can't get cars and a house, but they don't have to. They can have one car and an apartment. I guess that might be nitpicky, but whatever.

I don't know much about Clinton's welfare act, because i was pretty young throughout his terms.

I'd like to start debating about SS, because if we cut it, many of those service workers would be very much helped.

4) i disagree with you about where millionaires start. I love in an upper class neighborhood, and i can pull a lot of examples from my neighboors, but i'll use my dad. he's a motivational speaker, and when he started he worked sooo hard, much harder than people who work two jobs or are waiters. he started off his business with pretty big debt on his hands and didn't have help from his parents. yet he worked so hard that he's now reaping the benefits. Also, he doesn't have some fancy degree. He graduated after 4 years from Albany St.

What about the poor Asian and hispanic families that come here and either make a living or put an importance on their kids education? when you say these Wal Mart workers work hard but can't get anywhere, you're slapping these Asians and hispanics in the face.

An interesting book that you should read is "no Excuses: closing the racial gap in learning".

some of my reasoning is a little flawed so i'm going to add some new things to make it make sense.

First you mention the 'working poor" can't raise families on minimum wage jobs. You're right about that, except they don't have to, because 75-80% (bureau of labor) of all minimum wage workers are students.

What are "sevice industry hell holes"? Why are they hell holes?

How do you know waitresses usually make 19,000/year/ they don't even report their tips.

"i'm not going to resort to insults like ann coulter, but most of what you said is a fallacy."

Okay, let's start here.

I'm not going to result to insults, in reaction to my logical argument? Are you kidding me? Try harder. I know you can do better, UNC.

Just calling my argument fallacious is nothing more than an unsubstantiated ad hominem attack. How about, instead of insulting me like Ann Coulter, show exactly HOW my argument is fallacious instead?

joebordenrebel Wrote:"i'm not going to resort to insults like ann coulter, but most of what you said is a fallacy."

Okay, let's start here.

I'm not going to result to insults, in reaction to my logical argument? Are you kidding me? Try harder. I know you can do better, UNC.

Just calling my argument fallacious is nothing more than an unsubstantiated ad hominem attack. How about, instead of insulting me like Ann Coulter, show exactly HOW my argument is fallacious instead?

actually i did prove the fallacy.

2) what does UNC mean?

3) i beg of you to stop saying "ad hominem". That is the most annoying thing i've ever heard, especially after you've said it over 100 times. ****** is that annoying, i just can't stand it.

Swoosh,

A service industry hell-hole are jobs that require little to no training, i.e. a Wal-Mart associate (cashier, for example), a Starbuck's latte artist, a McD's burger flipper are all jobs that I would define as service industry hell. These jobs have little upward mobility, esp. Wal-mart. McD's would have probably the best upward mobility of the tripartite example I mention, but even though, a McD's manager (and Wendy's too) still work upward of 70 hours a week for about an avg. of $32-35,000 a year. They don't get promoted to regional manager status without at least a bachelor's degree from a four-year institution. Even the rare cases that do work their way up, they must spend upward of 7-10 years in the business, and promotions mean relocation, for the most part.

I don't know what area of the country you work/live in, but I can tell you Jackson, MS (a population of about 180,000) is chopped full of service industry hell-holes (SIHH). Looking southward from n. Jackson to s. Jackson, SIHH's stretch as far as the eyes can see. At these SIHH's, I often am a patron and usually someone older than I is servicing me (I'm 34). Speaking with a waitress at Hop's Brewery on my lunch break, she's 40 and has 1 kid in school and works three jobs. She works for a maid service at $6.50 per hour, and works at a local Starbuck's on weekends. She says she's "toughing it out" and her biggest complaint was having a kid at a young age with a ex-husband "who wasn't worth a damn!"
[one can infer, probably fallaciously though, that the SIHH's made this woman regret the birth and existence of her daugher, which is quite unfortunate.]

This is merely one example. Go out to the slums of W. Jackson and one will find career SIHH employees who have had no opportunity for school because the public ed. system in Hinds County is among the worst in the nation. If one has credit, they can send their kids to a variety of parochial schools, even an all-black parochial school, where kids get the proper training for upward mobility, for the most part.
[poverty goes back to education.]
Still, you have not convinced me that these people are lazy. The day-to-day work they do is hard work. Dealing with outrageous and unreasonable, over-worked midlevel managers along with the general public is difficult, even if it is not as difficult as tarring a roof!

Now let's talk living opportunities, in which Jackson has few for those without credit (either because they have not built credit, or because they've abused it in the past). Jackson is filled with slumlords. They charge exorbitant rents and the nicer rentals require, you guessed it, a credit report (and rightly so, the owner/proprieter has the right to demand backgrounds on their tenants). So, those without credit are denied adequate housing.
Rent from an individual will cause more headaches because there are no controls on landlords, for the most part. So getting an affordable apartment is a challenge, as evidenced by my experience as a renter as well as from the experiences of the author of Five and Dimed. Rents castigate these wage workers, and myself, into a status of indentured servitude to the landlord as one making less than $30000 per year spends about 46% of their annual income on rent, a simple place to live.

When you attack Ehrenreich as "liberal" that constitutes an ad hominem and no book causes people to riot or stage protests. There was probably some discontent among those protesters to begin with.
Ehrenreich's book has some flaws, but I suggest reading it and then pointing out those flaws because regardless of the political persuasion of the writer, min. wage workers still have a tough time making it in our "utopian capitalistic dream-country." A republican, for example, will still face all the trials and tribulations of working in SIHH's because the cost of living is so durn high for those making less than 30,000 a year in my area as well as many other areas of the nation.

Immigrants have some breaks. Take Dearborn, Michigan for example. The community is about 40% middle eastern immigrants who have come over here and the state and federal government gave them lucrative tax breaks and subsidies to set up businesses, i.e. hotels, gas-stations and restaurants (that employ white, lower class, unskilled service industry laborers). I know this because I've been to Dearborn about upteen hundred times when I was a truck driver. I talked to locals on three occasions and that is the gist of what the locals told me.
As for Asians and hispanics, most of the former come over here on some sort of shadow economy exploitation, i.e. prostitution and clockers. The latter come over here across the border, for the most part, and do the jobs that Americans consider beneath them. Most of the Mexican workers I've encountered in my life are very hard workers, in sh*t jobs I might add. And many have a tough time making it here, just like they did in Mexico (but they'll tell you it is better here, and I agree with that. As bad as many poor Americans have it, we are still better economically than many third world hell-holes. But that in no way justifies us bombing other nations. We should improve that which is within our own borders before correcting the wrongs of other nations).

Your pop is a great story and that is the kind of American society I'd like to see more of! Consider alot of the poor, really impoverished working poor of this nation that will never have the opportunity to go to Albany State because they have to work 40 hours a week at the golden arches. How can one schedule classes at a school when working so much to pay for substandard dwellings? Enter children into the equation and it is even tougher. You can certainly say that colleges and training institutes offer night classes and the poor should take advantage of these, but in smaller markets like jackson, MS and other small cities and towns (which constitute a majority of living areas of the country), this may not be feasible. Ole Miss and Jackson St. University do not offer all of the classes toward a degree on nights and weekends. Businesses that employ people demand their employees to be there during peak business times, e.g. 7a.m.-6 p.m.
Seeing the self-made man (so to speak) is becoming less and less common these days for a variety of reasons, i.e. too many handouts to lazy kids from upper middle class parents. Also, a number of kids have start-up business bestowed upon them ( I see this all of the time) and that does not constitute "paying your dues and working your way up the ladder." Many of these start up businesses serve as tax umbrellas for larger businesses owned by daddy.

Remember what this thread was initially about--america's problems in relation to waging war. Should we wage war overseas when so many of our own are suffering? When so many Americans are impoverished and dealing with all the crap American society has to offer, must we spend 52% of our national budget on bombing third world nations?

Did you know that the USA spends more on defense spending than any other nation on earth combined? Add up all the defense budgets of every nation on earth and that aggregate figure is less than what the mighty USA spends on defending us. Imagine what might happen if some of that defense spending went toward work-training programs?

thanks again for debating rather than insulting and calling me a pinko commie librul like many others do on this forum. My intent is not to get you to change your mind, but to make you (and others) think.
Thanks for the book and I'll check it out.

Quote:actually i did prove the fallacy.&nbsp;

2) what does UNC mean?

3)&nbsp; i beg of you to stop saying "ad hominem".&nbsp; That is the most annoying thing i've ever heard, especially after you've said it over 100 times.&nbsp; ******&nbsp; is that annoying, i just can't stand it.&nbsp;

1. Well, if we're just going to resort to gainsaying, then. . .

"No you didn't!"

Exhibit A:

You said:

"A huge percentage of extremely poor people are welfare dependant. Which equals lazy. the other people you mention, who work really hard for minimum wage, are made up. if you aren't lazy, you aren't making minimum wage, it's as simple as that. I have a friend who works at Harris Teeter and has moved from minimum wage to the produce section in a short amount of time. What you say is false."

A huge percentage? Do you have any idea what you're talking about? I don't suppose you'd want to back that up with facts, would you? Yes, you gave one example of a person who got a raise. There, though, you switch from committing an ad hominem attack to the more vague fallacy of Hasty Generalization.

Following up one fallacy with another is not "proving" an argument. Sorry.

Well, at least I didn't say ad hominem again.

Anyway, I know a huge percentage of people who work their butts off and never get a freakin' raise. I'm one of them, and I can assure you I'm not lazy. But the book I mentioned proves my point much better than my own example because it is FILLED with examples. Hell, just do the math. You can work all the time and still never make ends meet.

And this friend of yours at Harris Teeter? How much does he/she make an hour? And how much was the raise?

2. I don't know. I assumed you were one of the UNC students protesting that darned liberal book. Were you not? If not, I aplogize.

3. Just imagine how I feel, when all you do is answer my posts with the same fallacious arguments.

And watch your cursing. There's no more cursing on this f'ing board, kid, by order of the f'ing moderators.

Any more lip out of you and you'll stand tall before the man!

:roflol: :roflol: