Dr. Torch,
Your history lesson was quite interesting. You did make one very poignant comment that I'll quote below:
"Meanwhile, how many college kids are downing keggers? watching CaTV in their dorms? and majoring in "Lesuire studies", etc?"
I've seen this up front and it's true. Like my many professors said, "state universities provide that 'second high-school diploma.' Students don't learn anything here because they don't have to!"
As for college costing $100K, that is true only by extension. B.A.'s or B.S.'s these days are worthless, unless it's computer related. Even marketing and business degrees don't bear much fruit as colleges produce an army of marketing majors. They send them out into the world fully equipped to lie and do so effectively. Perhaps you've met one. They probably tried to sell you a telephone book ad, claiming, "our readers [listeners/viewers] notice ads!" And that guy or gal is making around $27,000 per year telling lies.
Given the nature of most state-funded institutions, in conjunction with students who are ill-equipped to take initiative, graduates must move on to grad school. Law, medicine, pharmacy, masters, Ph.D's, MBA's--all are necessary to make a real living in today's service economy. For most students, even the one's whose parents can afford college, they resort to student loans to pay for all of this--and the weekly keggers (and the Adderalls, high-flight ganga and ecstacy).
On the disagreements:
Clinton signed NAFTA. He was a wily political beast, often stealing the conservatives agenda to spite them, and it was the only way to get things passed in Congress.
To this, George Bush #1 lobbied long and hard for NAFTA, as did many House and Senate Republicans before and after Clinton.
While you did not say it directly, you did give the impression that he was solely responsible for the most devastating legislation to American manufacturing in the 20th century. Then again, manufacturing began it's way out of the U.S. economy long before Clinton--it began in the age of Reagan!
On the middle class:
Most Americans say they are middle class, even the ones who make only about $19,000 per year in income. Nonetheless, it depends on how you define it.
Most middle-class Americans (annual income of more than $50,000) are in debt to their ears. Some student loans, a house, two cars, home repair, kids' tuition for elem, h.s. and college, avg. 9 credit cards and the membership to the golf club. Then there's insurance, some of which everyone must have by legislative fiat. This takes up a good chunk of working and middle class incomes. With all the debt Americans face, even those below the poverty level think they're middle class because they look at the stuff credit has afforded them!
"OT drying up? It's a mistake to depend on OT. As for the 1.5 rate, that was for small businesses. I doubt this claim has any merit."
Some professions are exempt from overtime rules, i.e. EMT's, truck drivers, doctors, etc. They always have been.
The oligarchs that control our government have in the past year, lobbied for legislation that extends the workweek to 48-50 hours a week. Many mid-level managers and what few manufacturers we have left depended on that. Some of these workers have been getting it for years. You take away about 15% of your weekly or semi-weekly check and see if it hurts you!
JBR wrote:
"Manufacturing jobs have long been gone, people laugh at Michael Moore, information technology jobs are being sent over to India and elsewhere."
And this prompted your response:
"So we should go back to isolationism? Funny how these things go full circle, I thought this was Pat Buchannon's position. Anyway, read the first article, and check out how Moore's Flint, MI has grown beyond automobiles...Moore doesn't talk about that much anymore."
In JBR's statements, he said nothing about isolationism. Your response is a classic strawman fallacy of logic. JBR mentioned nothing about closing the borders.
Can't there be some medium between isolationism and contracting labor out to overseas workers? Shouldn't American workers get some jobs other than sprinkling cinnamon on doctors' lattes? Other than selling useless ads and preying upon every small merchant in a given locality? Why of course they can, but they need that master's of something, at least, and then most find themselves in the student loan hole.
Regardless of how technologically advanced we get in the United States, somebody will always have to make something and that knowledge needs to continue. Somebody will always have to plant seeds in the ground and watch it grow, regardless of how advanced we become. Contracting this kind of work overseas is just an example of greed. Yes it keeps prices level, but most Americans buy their Indonesian-made Nike shoes using their Capital One No-Hassle card. Hey, only 9.8% interest. It's almost as cheap as my student loans!
You said, "I think folks don't realize how bad the 70's were. I was there, I remember. Anyway, I'm middle class and I haven't gotten squeezed under Reagan, Bush or Bush. In fact I've done alot more w/ my tax refunds."
The 70s were bad, unless you had some money. Interest rates were upward of 15%. Rat-hole whatever savings you got and it would have made you. It made my grandparents. Grandma never worked, but Grandpa was career Navy, an NCO. He had a pittance, about $1500 and he bought a CD in 1975. Today he's worth a bundle, most of which he made before 1980!
On tax refunds: I made an insurance payment with my $300. I still paid in over $2300 in taxes. Last year, since I was still in college in the last fiscal year--2002, I only made $12,000! I haven't done taxes yet this year, but since I made more money, I bet I will pay more taxes!
And on taxes in general: things aren't free ladies and gentlemen. Everyone wants to drive on nice smooth roads, but you can't cut the local high school's athletic budget to pay for it! Taxes, furthermore, fuel our war-machine. While buck-privates and NCO 's do come cheap, when you have over 300,000 of them, it gets costly. Plus all that Haliburton-gouged fuel to gas-up our Armored Personnel Carriers and B2 bombers does not grow on trees.
"How about LBJ's immigration policies?! Those are at the root of all of this, and those were not directed at American Citizens. In fact, why don't folks bring up LBJ when discussing all of this? His Great Society and his VietNam war, have lead to most of these issues."
LBJ's immigration policies are at the root of national security issues? You've got to be kidding me!
I know this is cliche, but without immigrants, we'd be a country full of native Americans! Lucky we did have the immigrants, because they cleared this land of Indians running around chasing buffalo! If it were for them, you'd be speaking Cherokee!
On the Vietnam War, one cannot defend the indefensible. LBJ was a terrible president and McNamara was a horrible war-planner. One has to acknowledge, however, that both parties were full-on in favor of war in SE Asia, they just disagreed on how to fight it. I, for one, say that war in SE Asia was wrong regardless of a party's methods!
"At some point folks will realize that history extends past 20 years."
Yeah, I agree on this. In fact, most of our national problems today were created circa 1492!
On Bill Clinton, like I've stated--I cannot defend the indefensible. As for Enron-style accounting practices, that has been going on for a long, long time among the corporate elites. Trying to blame Clinton for that is like the Dems' scapegoating of Bush for the same incoherent practices.
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