A Great American is someone who stands up and reveres and protects our Bill of Rights and our Constitution. A Great American stands up to tyranny against him and from within his own country. A Great American respects individuality and questions authority. A Great American can be someone as simple as you or I.

Wow, joe, you surely put the "spin" in The 'Spin' Room.

Quote:So the guy who has the more disgusting job should be paid less. . .for cleaning up puke, mopping the floors, smelling trash all day. . .oh, now I get it!

Create <a href='http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html' target='_blank'>straw men</a>, much?

Quote:Seriously, why should the President make more?

3rd through 6th paragraphs in my other post. I'm too lazy to copy n' paste.

Quote:Because he was brought up in a culture that exploits, he learned how to exploit (and profit from the working poor, who he employs) and thus easily took over the reigns as chief exploiter in charge when it was his turn?

OK. Now, one more time please. But this time without the jargon-filled rhetorical cliches lifted off a typical front-page rant on the <a href='http://www.wsws.org/index.shtml' target='_blank'>World Socialist Website</a>.

Quote:Or is it just because he's "a smart guy"? And the janitor's dumb?

Well, to put it bluntly and rather harshly, yes. That's a significant part of it.

There aren't many people around who have the mental capacity, muti-tasking ability, and intelligence to be a brain surgeon. Conversely, anyone with a pulse can mop floors at the local Burger King (note, there's that supply and demand thing again). The person who's relatively "unique" can command a higher salary than someone who doesn't have specialized, difficult skills.

Suppose we take your lead and enact a government law requiring that electrical engineers and Barnes & Noble book stockers get paid the same salary. Overall, what do you think will happen? What will happen to the supply of engineers? Bookstore stockers?

Now, instead of replying to what I just said here in everday conversation, simply respond by telling me something about the proletariat, the bourgeoisie, and revolutions and whatnot. :rolleyes:

Good points, MoTown, but JBR and Dio will not understand them. They have an iron determination to avoid any experience with human nature as it is, determined to live in the fairy land of what coulda, shoulda been. They are utopians. They truly believe that the only thing wrong about socialism is that it hasn't been tried. They simply will not and cannot accept the fact that human nature is not structured in the way they envision.

KlutzDio I Wrote:

Wryword Wrote:If I prod you another time or two, I think we can get a small book out of you, Dio.

So, your only real beef is that I did not cite "authority" for my statements?  Geez, I thought this was a message board.  Had I know that it was courtoom, I would have taken the trouble to go find sources.  I respect the fact that you have studied, but really, Dio, leave the dissertation - writing at home.

I have indeed at times "equated" demos with communists.  I thought that it would have been understood that those comments were deliberate overstatements.  But alas, it seems you are without a sense of humor.  Perhaps you have spent too lmuch time trying to know everything better than everybody.

Anyhow, this breathless recitation of facts, this mountain of minutia, does not really prove that much for me. 

I don't think I have to engage in comparative budget analysis to prove my point.  I think it is sufficient to point to the fact that our military was significantly re-equipped and given new spirit during the Reagan years.  It did make a difference.

As for loving Reagan, I can't say that I loved him so much as I have been deeply appreciative of what he did to free the country from the grasp of dreary socialists, and in ending the cold war.

Millions were not killed in the regime begun by Lenin, old boy?  Perchance this was a fact you missed while studying five year plans.

Anyway, son, let's see if'n you can whip up a ten page dump of facts, statistics, what-your-teacher said, leavening it all with a quote from Marx and other losers ever' now and again.  Bust a leg, son.

First of all, teachers don't tell college students what to think, they tell students where to look for information. Usually information is in the form of raw data and it covers a wide variety of topics. The student is charged with perusing the information and then forming an opinion on it. The student then writes out a report telling exactly why the student has reached the conclusions they have reached.

As for citing, I'm not looking for an authority as you say, I am looking for something to back up your conclusion that Ronnie Rayguns Reagan defeated the Soviet Union. So far you have only said that Reagan defeated the Soviet Union because you believe this to be true.

Would you go into a court of law and say client X is not guilty of the crime client X is charged with because you really, really believe client X is not guilty?

Actually, a comparative budget analysis would prove your point much better than saying it is so because you say it is so.

You claim that Reagan "free[ed] the country from the grasp of dreary socialists..." but you don't qualify this statement with fact, this is merely an opinion of yours that is completely devoid of support.

I never said millions didn't die in the USSR, I merely pointed out that Lenin didn't kill millions, Stalin did and the first five year plan was Stalin's idea after Lenin had died. You have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about and your "facts" are your beliefs.

What the hell did that mean, would I say a client who was not guilty was not guilty? Hell, I would say a guilty client was not guilty when representing him.

Prod. .. . . . .

:angel:

Went to the Great American (Ballpark) again Friday. Not a bad seat yet. That place ROCKS!!!!

john wayne
chester a nimitz
douglas mcarthur
george patton
dwight d eisenhower
ronald reagan
jimmy stewart
mel gibson(born in ny)
elvis presley
jerry lee lewis
johnny cash
willie nelson
hank williams sr
robert e lee
thomas "stonewall" jackson
jefferson davis
george washington

Ben Franklin
Abraham Lincoln
Franklin D. Roosevelt
Mother Jones
John F. Kennedy
Mark Twain
Booker T. Washington
Thomas Jefferson
George S. Patton
Bill Clinton
Hillary Clinton
Kurt Vonnegut
Martin Luther King, Jr.
John McCain
Henry David Thereau
Frank Zappa
Jimmy Carter
John Glenn
Tecumseh
Horace Mann
Muhammed Ali
Paul Newman
Frederick Douglas
John Steinbeck
Father Flanagan
Woody Guthrie
Sinclair Lewis
Rosa Parks
Lenny Bruce
Cesar Chavez
Jackie Robinson and the man who hired him
Thomas Paine
Jesse Owens
Davey Crockett
Joseph Wilson

And to close:
"We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth... For my part, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst; and to provide for it."
-Patrick Henry

Cool thread.

I have a very DIVERSE (both politically and culturally) list of nominations, but then again the things that make America great are both diverse and contradictory. Thats what freedom is.

Deceased:

Teddy Roosevelt
Franklin Roosevelt
Abraham Lincoln
James Madison
George Washington
Thomas Jefferson
John Adams
John F. Kennedy
Dwight Eisenhower
Harry Truman
Jackie Robinson
Babe Ruth
Audie Murphy
Frederick Douglass
Martin Luther King
Thomas Edison
Pat Tillman

Living:

John McCain
Ronald Reagan
Joe Biden
John Kerry
Chuck Hagel
Doris Kearns Goodwin
Bill Gates
Charlie Rose
Tim Russert
Don Imus
Jerry Springer
Pat Buchanan
Dennis Miller
David McCullough
Hank Aaron
Spike Lee
Billy Graham

Wryword Wrote:Good points, MoTown, but JBR and Dio will not understand them. They have an iron determination to avoid any experience with human nature as it is, determined to live in the fairy land of what coulda, shoulda been. They are utopians. They truly believe that the only thing wrong about socialism is that it hasn't been tried. They simply will not and cannot accept the fact that human nature is not structured in the way they envision.

I'll get to the above quoted material, but first:

Motown, you usually offer good responses, but I think it is rather dishonest of you to accuse JBR of commiting strawman arguments when you have done the same exact thing. For example:

<<"Zinn looks at this example and thinks...
"Hm, Motown works hard. Taco Bell guy works hard. They both work very hard, so why the income disparity? Capitalism blows."">>

That is not the reasoning Zinn uses to say capitalism blows. His argument is much more detailed, still flawed like almost all inductive arguments, yet much more in-depth than you have represented him here.

Now, on the historian's level, Zinn is a crackpot despite having done some good research from time to time. So don't any of yous think that I am some kind of Zinn loving, flag waving Bolshevik.

Now Wry,

You've again commited the flaw that I have been trying to point out to you for years now.

You don't support what you write with facts, evidence or ideas. You merely make assertions.

Since you didn't get anything out of a previous post I made, I reiterate:

You would not base your legal defense of a client on the fact that you may believe his/her innocence is really, really true. You would not go into a court of law and argue that Client X is not guilty (or guilty if you are a prosecutor) based solely on your beliefs. Or would you?

I don't think you would, or you'd be laughed out of most Mississippi court rooms.

Similarly, if you want to get me to believe Reagan was solely responsible for the downfall of the Soviet Union, or Reagan's policies led to its fall, then you need to offer something into evidence other than conclusions without support, assertions without merit. As a lawyer, even if you are only in research, you should know how to argue.

For the record, I am not a utopian. I firmly know that human nature will impede any sort of utopian society on earth. I furthermore know that the world is a cruel place, and it would be quite irrational for one to believe that a perfect society is possible.

I am, and have not, demonstrated any rhetoric or opinions that could remotely be construed as socialist. The last thing I want is more money deducted from my already weak paychecks.

Now on your above quoted comments, again these are devoid of any support, hence these are merely assertions. You could have saved time typing by simply saying "boo on you, KDI and JBR!"

Until you have made a sound, valid argument either on Reagan and the USSR, or my socialist tendencies, then I must say you are incapable of backing up your beliefs.




:drink:

Brevity remains the soul of wit. I look forward to your next post as further proof.