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Axis of Evil.... 3yrs. later
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Ninerfan1 Offline
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Post: #41
 
Quote:Bribe, cohort, beg................  I don't give a damn...........  they now have NUKES!!!!

We tried that under Clinton, it didn't work.

Quote:Yet you guys keep whistlin past the graveyard.  This is a monumental utterly inept failure.

Yet the only solution you have offered is to appease them. Give into their black mail. And pray tell Dogger how long do you think they'd be satisfied before coming back and demanding more from us? How much are you willing to appease them with?
02-11-2005 02:46 PM
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GrayBeard Offline
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Post: #42
 
<bomb falling sound> This thread is headed to the ---> :john: <explosion>
02-11-2005 02:47 PM
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Dogger Offline
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Post: #43
 
Niner,

I tried. I swear to God I tried to tone down the rhetoric. Tried to look a things in a different light, become a better person. Honestly try to see where the other 51% is coming from. I do read your posts and you do bring up some great counter points. (Sometimes too good, like your getting some talking points and earning Republican Gear from the evil one Rove kind of talking points) but back to the task at hand.

N. Korea is dangerous and we ALL should be worried about the ramifications of them acquiring nukes. I got my stats from that Farakhama????? guy they have on the Sunday morning talk show on ABC.
02-11-2005 02:51 PM
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Tulsaman Offline
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Post: #44
 
GrayBeard Wrote:<bomb falling sound> This thread is headed to the ---> :john: <explosion>
Jumps into Bomb shelter. :D
02-11-2005 02:52 PM
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Dogger Offline
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Post: #45
 
Guys,

They didn't have NUKES under Clinton and the best estimations it wouldn't have been for another twelve years and a considerable lower grade of explosives.
02-11-2005 02:54 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #46
 
Dogger Wrote:They were 12-16 years away from a nuclear weapon in your illegal enrichment scenario. They have 16 now boy wonder.
They were '12-16 years away' 10 years ago, and they have them now...one of those two statements must be false.

Either way, it's widely accepted that they were working on them when Clinton was in office. That they have them now is even more evidence to support that.

Did Bush's actions cause them to speed up their work?

Or did Bush's actions force them to tip their hand, and give the world the evidence they were trying to ignore?

Given the fact that they lied about it for years...I believe they were working on it as fast as they could regardless. Bush (based on Rumsfeld's work prior to his recent appointment) forced N Koreas position. Now the world MUST accept the situation, instead of playing ostrich.
02-11-2005 02:54 PM
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gruehls
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Post: #47
 
Dogger Wrote:They were 12-16 years away from a nuclear weapon in your illegal enrichment scenario.&nbsp; They have 16 now boy wonder.
what are you yammerring about now? it's not "my illegal enrichment scenario"; it's clinton's and north korea's.

from the cato institute 1996:
Quote:North Korea

The framework agreement on nuclear issues negotiated with the North Korean regime in October 1994 attracted mixed reviews from the start. Even such normally sympathetic bodies as the Council on Foreign Relations gave what was at best a tepid endorsement of the administration's handiwork. Other observers argued forcefully that the United States had been out-negotiated: Washington agreed to provide diplomatic recognition, oil, and funding for new (albeit supposedly more proliferation-resistant) reactors and in return was shortchanged on the vital issue of North Korea's accounting for its past research and reprocessing activities.[8]

Some 17 months later, it is becoming apparent that the accord is a "success" only in the sense that the issue has receded from the headlines. The underlying concerns that in 1994 caused the Pentagon to ship missiles and other advanced equipment to reinforce U.S. forces in South Korea remain as cloudy as ever. The most grievous concerns are whether North Korea ever assembled any nuclear weapons and, if so, the current disposition of those weapons.[9] At the moment, the United States has few security gains to show for its diplomatic brinkmanship.


you pop off about how there were cameras in a nuke facility. big deal; they didn't stop the lying lunatics. their development program continued thru an indeterminate period of time during clinton's 2nd term. you keep posting like they decided to make their bombs after bush called them a name. during clinton's time in office, they violated the 1994 framework agreement, the 1991 joint declaration with south korea to keep the korean peninsula free of nukes, the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, and others.
02-11-2005 02:55 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #48
 
GrayBeard Wrote:[ Clinton's "appeasement" policy. All that got us was a temporary warm fuzzy while NK continued to develop their nukes and the missile systems that can deliver the warheads to <gasp> Cowleefornya. Now we are in a real pickle. Any aggression by us, may send Nukes flying towards the US.
It's not clear that N Korea has inter-continental missiles.

<a href='http://www.missilethreat.com/' target='_blank'>http://www.missilethreat.com/</a>

It seems that they didn't necessarily develop their own nukes.

<a href='http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/Swissinfo.html?siteSect=143&sid=5497734' target='_blank'>http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/Swissinfo.htm...143&sid=5497734</a>
02-11-2005 03:01 PM
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Ninerfan1 Offline
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Post: #49
 
Quote:I tried.&nbsp; I swear to God I tried to tone down the rhetoric.&nbsp; Tried to look a things in a different light, become a better person.&nbsp; Honestly try to see where the other 51% is coming from.&nbsp; I do read your posts and you do bring up some great counter points.&nbsp; (Sometimes too good,&nbsp; like your getting some talking points and earning Republican Gear from the evil one Rove kind of talking points) but back to the task at hand.

Dogger if I were at a point where I could get talking points from Rove do you really think I'd be posting here? :laugh:

Quote:N. Korea is dangerous and we ALL should be worried about the ramifications of them acquiring nukes.&nbsp; I got my stats from that Farakhama????? guy they have on the Sunday morning talk show on ABC.

Try reading this
<a href='http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050210/D885R1K80.html' target='_blank'>AP story.</a>

Quote:The claim could not be independently verified. North Korea expelled the last U.N. nuclear monitors in late 2002. It is not known to have tested an atomic bomb, although international officials have long suspected it has one or two nuclear weapons.

The CIA has estimated that with a highly enriched uranium weapons program and the use of sophisticated high-speed centrifuges, North Korea could be making more. Some analysts and observers have put the estimate at six to eight.

The fact is, we have no clue how many they have.

I don't think anyone can give a grade to anyone on this, other than to N. Korea with a big fat "F".

We know a couple of things.

1) They won't be giving up their nuclear weapons
2) They want a non-agression pact
3) They want a unified Korea under the communist banner

None of these is acceptable.

This situation is as delicate as they come and there is no easy way around it. But what you can't do is lay the blame for this at Bush's feet. There are 6 other nations involved in this trying to get it worked out.

And let's not forget, Kim Jong Ill is a LUNATIC. How much reasoning can you honestly do with a guy like this?
02-11-2005 03:01 PM
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Dogger Offline
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Post: #50
 
Did our actions of pre-emption force nuclear proliferation? I think one can make an argument that it has. The argument falls along these lines. The United States juggernaught has become so powerful in regards to other countries that the only way to confront them is with nuclear weapons. This is THE LESSON from both Gulf Wars. I am not debating on whether we should have recieved the "permission slip" only that there are ramifications of buckling the world order.
02-11-2005 03:02 PM
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Tulsaman Offline
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Post: #51
 
Ninerfan1 Wrote:And let's not forget, Kim Jong Ill is a LUNATIC. How much reasoning can you honestly do with a guy like this?
well you could hire a hit man. :D
02-11-2005 03:06 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #52
 
Dogger Wrote:Did our actions of pre-emption force nuclear proliferation? I think one can make an argument that it has. The argument falls along these lines. The United States juggernaught has become so powerful in regards to other countries that the only way to confront them is with nuclear weapons. This is THE LESSON from both Gulf Wars. I am not debating on whether we should have recieved the "permission slip" only that there are ramifications of buckling the world order.
Ok, so your point is clear.

The excuse is that N Korea must defend itself from the imperialistic US. However, that fails on all accusations:

1. N Korea has no oil. Ergo, even Pacifica fans would have to concede there is nothing in N Korea for the US to covet.

or

2. The US really had no plans to invade N Korea.

Logical conclusion: The N Korea excuse holds no water. It is BS.

SO, what is the more likely reason N Korea has those weapons?

Well, it's seen communist USSR fall.

It sees Cuba about to revert to capitalism after Castro dies.

It saw Germany reunited...NOT under communism.

N Korea is starving, while S Korea is fluorishing...

Conclusion, N Korea's last ditch effort at survival is the imperialism that it projects on the 'evil' US!

Communism does NOT work, despite what a few remaining academicians want folks to believe. It can only survive by gorging on those systems that do produce and sustain wealth. And it does that best by FORCE.
02-11-2005 03:09 PM
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Ninerfan1 Offline
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Post: #53
 
"World order" is somewhat of an oxymoron wouldn't you say?

The argument is wrong. The US is not an imperialist nation. If we were Cuba would be competing with the Bahamas for tourist dollars and Iraq and Iran would be funneling us oil under the banner of BP and Exxon.

The argument also doesn't hold water because many nations besides us have Nuclear missiles.

N. Korea and Iran want nukes for one reason, to hold us hostage and black mail us. These aren't democratic governments we're talking about. We're talking about loonies and fanatics who oppress, torture and kill their own people.

N. Korea is the best argument there is for us going into Iraq.
02-11-2005 03:09 PM
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Dogger Offline
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Post: #54
 
Quote:Dogger if I were at a point where I could get talking points from Rove do you really think I'd be posting here?


Rove sends out a message daily to over 6 million people. I suspect you are one of these "chosen few". He's going to enlist their help in the coming debate on SS. You just have some solid arguments. Almost to the point they've been focus polled to the masses solid.
02-11-2005 03:10 PM
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Dogger Offline
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Post: #55
 
Quote:well you could hire a hit man.&nbsp;


I thought about that last night. Get the sniper from Canada that had the confirmed kill from over 8500 feet in Afghanistan to do the job.

Niner,

Your more than a worthy adversary. Your posts always challenge the lefts viewpoint and even sometimes make sense. I can't believe I just typed that :shock:
02-11-2005 03:15 PM
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Ninerfan1 Offline
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Post: #56
 
Dogger Wrote:Rove sends out a message daily to over 6 million people. I suspect you are one of these "chosen few". He's going to enlist their help in the coming debate on SS. You just have some solid arguments. Almost to the point they've been focus polled to the masses solid.
Wow. And when do the black helicopters land? :eek:

Dogger, I get no email from Rove. My points, thoughts and opinions are my own and are not fed to me by anyone. I work for a very, very large banking institution so talking about investments, market trends etc. you could say are kind of up my alley. I read, research and think over these things quite a bit. I need no hand holding from Limbaugh, Rove, Hannity or the Weekly Standard.

I was an advocate of privatizing social security long before Bush ever ran for office for the same reasons I've stated. I've was an advocate for removing Saddam since 9/11 and my thoughts on N. Korea are based on a knowledge of history, politics and basic reasoning.

I don't need anyone to give my talking points, I formulate my own.
02-11-2005 03:17 PM
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Ninerfan1 Offline
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Post: #57
 
Dogger Wrote:Niner,

&nbsp; Your more than a worthy adversary.&nbsp; Your posts always challenge the lefts viewpoint and even sometimes make sense.&nbsp; I can't believe I just typed that :shock:
:beam: :beam: :shock: :D
02-11-2005 03:18 PM
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Schadenfreude Offline
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Post: #58
 
Ninerfan1 Wrote:My points, thoughts and opinions are my own and are not fed to me by anyone.
Unless your name is Don Luskin, this is demonstrably untrue.

<a href='http://www.ncaabbs.com/forums/ncaa/invision/index.php?act=ST&f=31&t=15270&st=0#entry139709' target='_blank'>http://www.ncaabbs.com/forums/ncaa/invisio...t=0#entry139709</a>
02-11-2005 11:55 PM
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Ninerfan1 Offline
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Post: #59
 
Schadenfreude Wrote:
Ninerfan1 Wrote:My points, thoughts and opinions are my own and are not fed to me by anyone.
Unless your name is Don Luskin, this is demonstrably untrue.

<a href='http://www.ncaabbs.com/forums/ncaa/invision/index.php?act=ST&f=31&t=15270&st=0#entry139709' target='_blank'>http://www.ncaabbs.com/forums/ncaa/invisio...t=0#entry139709</a>
Nice try SF, but you in your effort to try and discredit me you ignored one tiny little part of what I posted.

Quote:I read, research and think over these things quite a bit.

Yes, I used Luskin to refute you using Krugman.

Nice try junior, but your pety attempt as a "gotcha" just shows that you have no avenue left to you in the debate because you've been resoundingly beaten.
02-12-2005 10:05 AM
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