RebelKev Wrote:Homeschooling is become more and more common. Why? Well, if teachers would do what their job requires...to teach, there would be no problem. However, many teachers are now more into indoctrination than they are teaching. Teach the kids, I don't give a damn if you're Republican, Democrat, Green, Libertarian, etc., don't bring that crap into the school.

My mother in-law, who is a history teacher absolutely HATES the homeschooled kids. They still have to take the state tests (TCAP here...every state has their own version), so they get "assigned" to teachers for reporting purposes and the homeschooled apparantly bring her scores WAY down.

blah Wrote:

Ninerfan1 Wrote:

JTiger Wrote:And people wonder why most teachers vote democratic.

Teachers vote democratic because the democrats give them anything and everything they could want in exchange for the union votes. Democrats will fund the schools, cut back on test rqmts and accountability, vote against vouchers and make teachers who are tenured impossible to get rid of even if they suck and are harming the students.

That's why they vote democratic.

How true.

Wow...that's an incredibly broad generalization.

They would "cut back on test rqmts and accountability"...let me guess you support NCLB...er, I mean teach to the lowest common denominator and the test at the end of the year. Teachers / school systems now risk being penalized because some kid's pathetic parents never convinced him/her that school is good and do nothing to make sure that their kid actually participates in school. Sometimes a child needs to be left behind if they refuse to even try to stand on their own two feet.

They would "vote against vouchers"...good! Sorry, but I have not seen anything that has proven to me that vouchers are a good idea...plus I don't like the idea of throwing our tax dollars into schools with little to no accountability.

...and teachers who are tenured are already impossible to get rid of unless they do something inappropriate.

The problems that I see with the public educational system today are:

1. lazy parents thinking that they can just put thier kids on a school bus and have them come back educated with no effort on their part.

2. most of the people that would be the best teachers are run off by the pathetic salaries. I, for one, would prefer to teach; however, teachers at my age make about half of what I do in engineering. Honestly, there were a few people that just really wanted to teach and studied that in college...most of the rest just wouldn't have hacked it in any other field of study.

3. there is no way to get rid of bad teachers...or any way to assess which ones are the bad teachers.

...oh yeah...just because an actor drops out of college doesn't make them dumb. If you had the opportunity to make that kind of money at that age for playing pretend...you'd be dumber to pass up on that opportunity.

99Tiger Wrote:...oh yeah...just because an actor drops out of college doesn't make them dumb. If you had the opportunity to make that kind of money at that age for playing pretend...you'd be dumber to pass up on that opportunity.

Yeah, those leftist actors demonstrate their intelligence every day. "It's a war for oil". :rolleyes:

Quote:They would "cut back on test rqmts and accountability"...let me guess you support NCLB...er, I mean teach to the lowest common denominator and the test at the end of the year.

No, I'd be a liberal if I supported that. And that's not what NCLB does, though it does lend itself to it simply because Ted Kennedy wrote the majority of it.

Quote:Teachers / school systems now risk being penalized because some kid's pathetic parents never convinced him/her that school is good and do nothing to make sure that their kid actually participates in school.  Sometimes a child needs to be left behind if they refuse to even try to stand on their own two feet.

Couldn't agree more, however it's not conservatives that want to keep problem kids in classes it's liberals. Char. Meck school system where I live is the picture perfect example of this. It's next to impossible to isolate or get rid of chronic problem children and distractions unless they commit a felony. As a result the school system is horrific here. And schools don't want to get rid of problem kids either because the fewer students you have the less your funding is. Char Meck is funded to a ridiculous amount and as a whole is a joke of a system.

Quote:They would "vote against vouchers"...good!  Sorry, but I have not seen anything that has proven to me that vouchers are a good idea.

YOu need look no further than America for the evidence. Capitalism and it's main component choice are perfect evidence that vouchers work, and they have in many areas of the country. When people have a choice it forces those who offer whatever the "product" is to make it good or else the consumer will take their money elsewhere. Vouchers are especially effective for low income families who are trapped in a failed system and have no where else to go.

Quote:...plus I don't like the idea of throwing our tax dollars into schools with little to no accountability.

Private school kids have to pass the same state tests that public schools do. At least they do in NC.

Quote:and teachers who are tenured are already impossible to get rid of unless they do something inappropriate.

Yes, and the point is to correct that. I don't have tenure at my job so if I'm bad at it or screw up I can be fired in a heart beat. This forces me to give my best. Tenure takes that away and simply counting on every teacher to give their best simply because it's the right thing to do doesn't work. There are thousands of teachers, tenured and not, that give all they have to education. However there are just as many who just want 3 months off a year.

Quote:1. lazy parents thinking that they can just put thier kids on a school bus and have them come back educated with no effort on their part.

Couldn't agree more. And that's just the way it is. Government can't fix that.

Quote:most of the people that would be the best teachers are run off by the pathetic salaries.

2 weeks at Christmas, a week in the spring, sometimes 3 extra days in the fall, most federal holidays and all of summer equate to roughly 3 months off each year for a teacher. In comparison to the 2 or 3 weeks most get out in the business world. Teachers in the Char Meck system, for example, start at around 28K a year out of school. That's pretty good. Teacher salaries should be performance based just like anyone elses. And not just on state tests. Test scores during the year, random evaluations etc. should all be used to determine level of salary.

Quote:there is no way to get rid of bad teachers...or any way to assess which ones are the bad teachers.

On the contrary you can find the bad ones pretty easy and you do it the same way you find them in the business world. Results, management evaluation and peer review.

The public education system in this country, as a whole, is a shambles. If choice was a possibility for all children, schools would have no choice but to get it together. My sister is an 8th grade teacher in a public school and she has on more than one occassion stated she wished vouchers were readily available because of the horrific way public education is run.

99Tiger Wrote:[QUOTE=blah,Jun 9 2005, 12:24 PM]
1. lazy parents thinking that they can just put thier kids on a school bus and have them come back educated with no effort on their part.

This is the biggest problem with students today IMO. When I was a kid my parents grounded me if I got bad grades and asked it I had homework and tests and made sure I did the work needed. I can't remember how many hours my mother and I spent going over my spelling words in elementary school. The bottom line is that kids are alot of work. Don't think that one teacher per 30 students will give your kid the education he/she needs. Agree with Niner, that government can't fix this social problem.

JTiger,Jun 13 2005, 08:00 AM Wrote:

99Tiger,Jun 10 2005, 08:40 PM Wrote:[QUOTE=blah,Jun 9 2005, 12:24 PM]
1. lazy parents thinking that they can just put thier kids on a school bus and have them come back educated with no effort on their part.

This is the biggest problem with students today IMO. When I was a kid my parents grounded me if I got bad grades and asked it I had homework and tests and made sure I did the work needed. I can't remember how many hours my mother and I spent going over my spelling words in elementary school. The bottom line is that kids are alot of work. Don't think that one teacher per 30 students will give your kid the education he/she needs. Agree with Niner, that government can't fix this social problem.

Oh...I'm not disagreeing with Niner on that point. That's just a fact of society and the largest reason for educational failure in the United States. Our best students can compete with anyone in the world...but our worst students are downright awful...and aside from those with legit learning disabilities, that's the parent's fault.

Government can't change that...NCLB can't change that...vouchers can't change that. All you can do is continue to pound the point home (no pun intended) and hope it starts sinking in sooner and not later.

As a teacher, I feel I must opine (sorry Bill O'Reilly for steeling your line)

A few points to make:

1. I'm not so sure K-12 public teachers actually vote more Democratic. In actuality, I believe most K-12 public teachers are very conservative....except those on the left coast and Little Europe (NYC). University Educators are probably more liberal and vote Democratic (depending upon the field they teach). Also, the national teachers organizations are most definately run by socialists and almost always support "very" liberal policies and politicians. Many non-tenured, young K-12 teachers will join these national organizations, not for their political beliefs but because these organizations will support them if a lawsuit is brought against them.....

2. I ditto this statement "they can just put their kids on a school bus and have them come back educated with no effort on their part". Sad but many times true

3. The argument made about homeschooled vs. public-schooled students and their social skill development is bogus. I've heard this argument before..... "Homeschooled students don't develop the social skills to survive in today's world"..... only if the homeschooled student were locked in a basement until they turn 18. Homeschooled students have extended families, neighbors, may attend church, boy/girl scouts, local sports leagues, etc. This argument burns me up. It lends to the theory that public schools ought to be teaching social skills. NO...that's a parent's responsibility. Schools should be educating students to participate in a free market economy and a democratic society, not to socialize.

4. The schools are usually not the problem with the lack of education found in our populous. Most public schools provide every opportunity for a student to develop the knowledge and skills to be successful (Why do these so-called "failing" schools still produce Rhodes Scholars, National Merit Scholars, etc?). If one child in a school can acquire everything they need to succeed educationally in that school, then surely they all could. So why don't they? That's the question that needs to be answered. My belief is that it's our society. Watch television and you'll quickly see how the smart kid is portrayed or treated. You soon realize why the kids don't want to be perceived as the smart kid in class. So why do these "high achieving" students survive in this environment? It's one of three factors..... a). Parenting b). Luck or c). genetics {I'll get PC flamed for that one}

I have more to say but I'm sure I'll be forced to explain the first 4 in more detail so I'll save the others 'til later. Be kind my liberal friends....remember, I'm just a "dumb" conservative....

99Tiger Wrote:My mother in-law, who is a history teacher absolutely HATES the homeschooled kids. They still have to take the state tests (TCAP here...every state has their own version), so they get "assigned" to teachers for reporting purposes and the homeschooled apparantly bring her scores WAY down.

That's interesting because national figures show homeschool students are at the top of the list followed by private school students and then, last but not least, public school students.

umbluegray,

I'd like to know how they "assessed" homeschooled students to get that comparison. Actually, my experience has been that many homeschooled students with dedicated parents tend to get a very good academic education, however, many, many homeschooled students are homeschooled because the student got into trouble at school and momma chooses not to make Johnny pay the consequences dictated by the public school. In other words, Johnny got into a fight, was insubordinate, was failing, etc.... and instead of being a responsible parent and make Johnny face the consequences, momma comes to the Board of Education ranting and raving and says "I'll just homeschool Johnny". I see that every other day. I am now an administrator in a school system and my office is next to the Director of Pupil Services. .... Many times, momma may be a dropout herself. Johnny spends his day watching TV. Momma or uncle Bob or someone else helps Johnny pass (or pass for him) his assignments and he gets credit for a year. The next year, after momma is tired of having Johnny at home, she re-enrolls him in the public babysitting service (public school). Now Johnny is further behind, his behavior hasn't been corrected, and he knows he doesn't have to abide by the consequences of his actions. This is a rampant problem. It gives a bad name to those who are dedicated to homeschooling their children appropriately.

JTiger Wrote:

blah Wrote:"Those who can, do, those who can't, teach."

-unknown

If you can read this, thank a teacher.

-bumper sticker-

Where would we be without teachers? The dark ages. And people wonder why most teachers vote democratic.

You could learn some history.

"Dark ages"? Sheesh.

As for most teachers voting democrat...maybe that's an indictment on the failing public schools in the US.

JTiger Wrote:I've always had a problem with homeschooling because the people teaching their children may not even have degrees in anything.  Also, while some are very book smart, some lack the basic social skills required in college.  IMO, the social aspect of school is 50%.  If you can't relate to someone, how can you work in a team environment?

Why does homeschooling preclude a social environment? Do you even think?

"Some lack social skills required in college"
The same is true for many coming from public schools. Once again your ignorance is blazing.

<a href='http://alum.mit.edu/ne/whatmatters/200407/index.html' target='_blank'>http://alum.mit.edu/ne/whatmatters/200407/index.html</a>

<a href='http://alum.mit.edu/ne/whatmatters/200310/index.html' target='_blank'>http://alum.mit.edu/ne/whatmatters/200310/index.html</a>


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That statement isn't conducive to a healthy debate. RK

How many years did Benjamin Franklin go to school JTiger? How about most of our founding fathers? Keep in mind, there have been comparisons with papers written by our FF's and currents presidents, INCLUDING Clinton, and our FF's were about 6 grades ahead of the currents.

Teachers teach out of a book. There is nothing they do that an intelligent parent can't.

RebelKev

Quote:Teachers teach out of a book. There is nothing they do that an intelligent parent can't.

I'll have to disagree with you on that one.....

Ineffective teachers teach only out of a book. Good teachers use various materials and strategies to address the individual learning styles of the student and guide the student to understanding of the content.

BubbaTop Wrote:RebelKev

Quote:Teachers teach out of a book. There is nothing they do that an intelligent parent can't.

I'll have to disagree with you on that one.....

Ineffective teachers teach only out of a book. Good teachers use various materials and strategies to address the individual learning styles of the student and guide the student to understanding of the content.

As do parents.

RebelKev Wrote:How many years did Benjamin Franklin go to school JTiger? How about most of our founding fathers? Keep in mind, there have been comparisons with papers written by our FF's and currents presidents, INCLUDING Clinton, and our FF's were about 6 grades ahead of the currents.

Teachers teach out of a book. There is nothing they do that an intelligent parent can't.

This thread go fired up again all of the sudden.

That's not a very good comparison, IMO, but there are always exceptional people like Ben Franklin. However, we don't hear about the average citizen back in the 1700's that mostly learned a trade and nothing else. Your comparison of very exceptional people to the average kid coming from homeschool. Apples and oranges.

You assume the parents are intelligent.

I can't believe this thread has evolved to homeschool from bush and kerry grades at Yale.

DrTorch Wrote:Why does homeschooling preclude a social environment? Do you even think?

"Some lack social skills required in college"
The same is true for many coming from public schools. Once again your ignorance is blazing.

<a href='http://alum.mit.edu/ne/whatmatters/200407/index.html' target='_blank'>http://alum.mit.edu/ne/whatmatters/200407/index.html</a>

<a href='http://alum.mit.edu/ne/whatmatters/200310/index.html' target='_blank'>http://alum.mit.edu/ne/whatmatters/200310/index.html</a>


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That statement isn't conducive to a healthy debate. RK

Aren't we fiesty today?