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If Darrin Horn were intereviewing for his own job today....
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Hilltopper2K Offline
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Post: #1
If Darrin Horn were intereviewing for his own job today....
Would you hire him?

WKU fans have high expectations. That's a good thing.

WKU fans are passionate and emotional about thier team. That's a good thing.

But take a deep breath and take a step back for just a second. IF there were a former player that had played on a sweet 16 team and then gone on to coaching, had been an assistant on a final 4 team, had 4 years of head coaching experience with no losing seasons (and 3 straight 20 win seasons) at say... Kent State (comparable school with a comparable conference) would Hilltopper fans want to hire that guy? Cause I sure as hell would.

A couple of more points about Horn.

First, he is not coaching in a vacuum. I know people will say that his job is to win the conference and why can't he do his job. But there are 12 guys out there in the Sunbelt conference who are paid six figures each to stop Darrin from doing his job. If you had a dozen people who were paid six figures each to do nothing else but stop you from doing your job how successful would you be?

Second, I keep hearing about how Horn has pushed his teams too hard and "burnt them out" or however you want to say it. Could it just be that since Horn played on a sweet 16 team, he knows exactly how hard a team has to work to have that kind of success? If the sweet 16 is our goal then shouldn't we DEMAND that our coach expect that level of effort from our team?

I've said it before and I will say it again.

HORN WILL BE WORTH THE WAIT. Don't give up on him.
03-07-2007 10:21 AM
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Big Money G Offline
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Post: #2
 
My only response is WKU has more basketball resources, facilities, and tradition than any team in the conference. While Horn's resume' coming is was absolutely worthy of him getting the job, I'm not sure those credentials should allow him to keep it if he isn't producing SBC Championships. Making the NCAA's is the threshold for WKU coaches. Horn is failing miserably. If the shoe were flipped and Horn was leaving for the Georgia job after being to 3 straight NCAA tourneys and winning the SBC 3 straight year and Felton came in and produced Horn's record would you be so "forgiving"?
03-07-2007 02:14 PM
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Hilltopper2K Offline
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My only response is WKU has more basketball resources, facilities, and tradition than any team in the conference.

And Georgia has more resources, better fan base and heck of a lot better conference than us yet Felton has not taken them to the NCAAs. Does that suddenly make him a bad coach?

While Horn's resume' coming in was absolutely worthy of him getting the job, I'm not sure those credentials should allow him to keep it if he isn't producing SBC Championships. Making the NCAA's is the threshold for WKU coaches. Horn is failing miserably.

I agree that NCAAs are the threshold for success, but I disagree that NOT making the NCAAs is the threshold for failure. Horn is somewhere in between. I mean if we had a losing season or there was no reason to think it would be better next year, then I might agree with you. But there is a lot to build on here.

If the shoe were flipped and Horn was leaving for the Georgia job after being to 3 straight NCAA tourneys and winning the SBC 3 straight year and Felton came in and produced Horn's record would you be so "forgiving"?

Of course. Especially if Felton was an alumnus and had played on our sweet 16 team and had put together a potential juggernaut of a team for next year. BTW, why do you ask that?
03-07-2007 06:43 PM
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Big Money G Offline
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And Georgia has more resources, better fan base and heck of a lot better conference than us yet Felton has not taken them to the NCAAs. Does that suddenly make him a bad coach?

Felton took over a Georgia program that was in disarray from the Jim Harrick regime. He took the job and was slapped with 3 years probation, 2 year post season ban, and scholarship limitations. They are presently 17-12 with an 8-8 conference record. If they win 2 games in the SEC tourney they'll be in the NCAA's as an at large.

I agree that NCAAs are the threshold for success, but I disagree that NOT making the NCAAs is the threshold for failure. Horn is somewhere in between. I mean if we had a losing season or there was no reason to think it would be better next year, then I might agree with you. But there is a lot to build on here.

WKU is a 5 year coaching job. You are either getting fired after 5 years or you are moving on to a bigger, better paying job. That is pretty much the history of all WKU hoop coaches since Diddle. In order to move on a coach must make the NCAA tournament.



Of course. Especially if Felton was an alumnus and had played on our sweet 16 team and had put together a potential juggernaut of a team for next year. BTW, why do you ask that?

I had a feeling your loyalty to Horn was due to the fact he played at WKU on some of the most successful teams in over 35 years. I can respect that, but my appreciation for him as a player has nothing to do with my opinion of the job he is doing as coach of the Tops. I could care less about winning 20 games. In todays world of scheduling a lot of teams can win 20 games. The SBC is a pathetic league and WKU should win the SBC tourney and go to the NCAA's at least every other year. We haven't sniffed it now in 4 years.
03-07-2007 11:35 PM
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Hilltopper2K Offline
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Post: #5
 
Felton took over a Georgia program that was in disarray from the Jim Harrick regime. He took the job and was slapped with 3 years probation, 2 year post season ban, and scholarship limitations. They are presently 17-12 with an 8-8 conference record. If they win 2 games in the SEC tourney they'll be in the NCAA's as an at large.

But if you're assuming that Felton can coach and that Horn can't coach why is Felton 1-2 against Horn with all of the above mentioned advantages and with 2/3 of the games having been at Georgia?

WKU is a 5 year coaching job. You are either getting fired after 5 years or you are moving on to a bigger, better paying job. That is pretty much the history of all WKU hoop coaches since Diddle. In order to move on a coach must make the NCAA tournament.

That may be how it has historically worked out but I don't think its a rule written anywhere. That's just an arbitrary standard that the fans are imposing on him.

I had a feeling your loyalty to Horn was due to the fact he played at WKU on some of the most successful teams in over 35 years. I can respect that, but my appreciation for him as a player has nothing to do with my opinion of the job he is doing as coach of the Tops.

By and large I agree. Like I said, if we had a losing season this year then I wouldn't care if he did play for us. But he had a decent season and will build on it next year. Don't dismiss me as just 'loyal to Horn because he played for us.' Its more than that. Horn has NOT failed yet. And call it intuition or gut feeling or whatever you want, but I still believe in him. I believe that if you give him enough time he will win and win big. And there is no reason whatsoever not to give him the benefit of the doubt through next year seeing as how we will unquestionably be better next year. (Of course it remains to be seen how much better and whether that improvement will be enough, but I think it is fair to say that we will unquestionably be better.)

I could care less about winning 20 games. In todays world of scheduling a lot of teams can win 20 games.

We played a tougher non conference schedule than a lot of teams too.

The SBC is a pathetic league and WKU should win the SBC tourney and go to the NCAA's at least every other year. We haven't sniffed it now in 4 years.

The Sunbelt is a funny animal. The fans (and maybe even the coaches and players) believe that the conference tournament is the ONLY ticket to the big dance and that is all they care about. But the Sunbelt teams we play in January and February are better than the teams that other conferences play in November and December. Hardly seems fair but its true.
03-08-2007 07:33 PM
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Big Money G Offline
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Post: #6
 
But if you're assuming that Felton can coach and that Horn can't coach why is Felton 1-2 against Horn with all of the above mentioned advantages and with 2/3 of the games having been at Georgia?

Even more reason to be disgusted. Horn has beaten SEC Georgia and the coach that led us to 3 straight NCAA's 2 out of 3 yet loses to North Texas and Arkansas St. twice in the same season. I suppose it is good to get fired up for Georgia, but I'd rather win conference games and the conference tourney to get to the NCAA big dance.


That may be how it has historically worked out but I don't think its a rule written anywhere. That's just an arbitrary standard that the fans are imposing on him.

Must be an arbitrary standard for our adminstration as well as Murray Arnold and Kilcullen were shown the door.

We played a tougher non conference schedule than a lot of teams too.

According to the RPI we play the 139th hardest schedule. That is in the top half of all 300+ division 1 schools, but we really aren't competitive when we play a non conference game against a top 25 program.

But the Sunbelt teams we play in January and February are better than the teams that other conferences play in November and December. Hardly seems fair but its true.

Not sure I'm following you here. But over half the SBC has RPI ratings of 200 or greater. WKU was the only team under 100.
03-09-2007 12:09 PM
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Hilltopper2K Offline
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Even more reason to be disgusted. Horn has beaten SEC Georgia and the coach that led us to 3 straight NCAA's 2 out of 3 yet loses to North Texas and Arkansas St. twice in the same season. I suppose it is good to get fired up for Georgia, but I'd rather win conference games and the conference tourney to get to the NCAA big dance.

But you are saying Horn can't coach. I don't see how that could be true if he beat a guy that we both agree CAN coach 2/3 times (and would have been 3/3 if Danny Rumph hadn't died) on Georgia's home court.

Which brings me to my main point... I think this is the biggest reason I adamently support Horn. We both agree that it is Horn's job to recruit, train and coach teams that can get to the NCAA. I believe that Horn DID that last year. If Danny hadn't died we would have won at least 2, maybe 3 more games last year and we would have been in. With that one turn of fate we are talking about whether Horn should be fired instead of how do we keep him.

Must be an arbitrary standard for our adminstration as well as Murray Arnold and Kilcullen were shown the door.

Come on! They had much, much worse records.

Not sure I'm following you here. But over half the SBC has RPI ratings of 200 or greater. WKU was the only team under 100.

I mean that if the Sunbelt teams that had beaten us this year played that well in the non conference then the Sunbelt (and by extention us) would have been perceived as much, much better.
03-09-2007 08:46 PM
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Big Money G Offline
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But you are saying Horn can't coach. I don't see how that could be true if he beat a guy that we both agree CAN coach 2/3 times

He has beaten a downtrodden, probation ridden Georgia squad 2/3 times. I applaud him for that. You can't defend losing to North Texas TWICE, Arkansas State TWICE, Florida Atlantic at home, squeaking by D2 Kentucky Weslyan. The list of flashing warning signs are going off all around. The large pink elephant in the room, so to speak. In no way do I think Horn should be dismissed at this point, but I am beginning to believe Horn is a lot more hype than substance. I also believe a good dose of humility would go along way. He seems to point the finger at the short comings of the program every where but the guy he looks at in the mirror.

We both agree that it is Horn's job to recruit, train and coach teams that can get to the NCAA. I believe that Horn DID that last year.

He DID NOT win the conference tourney nor do enough to get in the NCAA as an at-large.

If Danny hadn't died we would have won at least 2, maybe 3 more games last year and we would have been in. With that one turn of fate we are talking about whether Horn should be fired instead of how do we keep him.

I'm sorry Rumph died. But that is nothing more than excuse. He died in June. Hell, if Chis Marcus doesn't have injuries Felton probably takes WKU back to the sweet 16. But even without Chris Marcus during the majority of Feltons last 2 years, he still won the conference tourney and went to the NCAA's.

With that one turn of fate (Rumph dying) we are talking about whether Horn should be fired instead of how do we keep him.

So you mean to tell me ONE PLAYER has kept WKU from winning the conference tourney the past 4 years? If that is the case the WKU basketball program is in much worse shape than I imagined.

Come on! They had much, much worse records.

No doubt both Arnold and Kilcullen both had some miserable seasons. But they both played in and won NCAA tourney games. Felton took over the WKU program at one the lowest points in the history of the program and had it back in the NCAA by his 3rd year. Horn took over a WKU program in much better shape than what Felton took over.


I mean that if the Sunbelt teams that had beaten us this year played that well in the non conference then the Sunbelt (and by extention us) would have been perceived as much, much better.

I guess I agree with you here. But a case could be made that the Subelt is just bad and the perception is actually a reality.

I am not advocating firing Horn. I do think he has a chance to be a good coach but needs a little humility. But the clock is ticking on him.

A serious question for you. Do you think the WKU hoops program is in better shape now than it was 4 years ago when Horn took over?
03-09-2007 11:49 PM
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Hilltopper2K Offline
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He has beaten a downtrodden, probation ridden Georgia squad 2/3 times. I applaud him for that.

They were on a self imposed probation for one year were they not (honest question I really don't remember)? And there was a year in between the two coaches taking over and the two coaches playing each other. I'm not saying that beating Georgia makes us national champs or anything but some but not all of the critics seem to think that Felton is heads and shoulders above Horn in coaching ability. I just don't believe that's true.

You can't defend losing to North Texas TWICE, Arkansas State TWICE, Florida Atlantic at home, squeaking by D2 Kentucky Weslyan.

I'm not going to try. I don't think we're really disagreeing as much as we're making out to be. My main beef when fans say Horn "can't coach" or fire Horn or what have you. I read a lot of message boards (I think its fun, go figure) and they all read the same. Every fan base wants results immediately or they want the coach fired. Louisville fans wanted thier coach fired this year, KY fans wanted Rich Brooks fired this year, N. Texas fans wanted thier coach fired this year (in basketball too) MTSU fans wanted to fire Kermit this year. Personally I like Horn. I very much want him to succeed, and I honestly believe he will sooner or later. And when he does I just hope there is a Crow eating thread about 10 pages long on the haven.

The list of flashing warning signs are going off all around. The large pink elephant in the room, so to speak.

See, I don't know that I agree with that. I think that Horn put together a really good team this year... minus a center. Yes, that's Horn's fault for not having an experienced center this year, but it doesn't change the fact that Horn could have coached his butt off and he still wouldn't have an experienced center this year. A small improvement in our post play would have made a huge difference in our record.

In no way do I think Horn should be dismissed at this point, but I am beginning to believe Horn is a lot more hype than substance. I also believe a good dose of humility would go along way. He seems to point the finger at the short comings of the program every where but the guy he looks at in the mirror.

I know whatever it is he said has really rubbed some people the wrong way... and that's fine. They're welcome to like or dislike him for whatever reason they choose. But I just can't bring myself to care what his personality is like. Its just not relevant. Many of the people that use this as an argument against Horn themselves admit that they wouldn't care if he was going to the NCAA's so why even bring it up? Its just a way to pile on. And lots of GREAT coaches were/are arrogant snots.

He DID NOT win the conference tourney nor do enough to get in the NCAA as an at-large.

See I know what you're saying and I think you know what I am saying. I believe that he DID do enough to get into the NCAA as an at large but through no fault of his own he lost his starting point gaurd. And darn if he didn't almost make it anyway.

I'm sorry Rumph died. But that is nothing more than excuse. He died in June. Hell, if Chis Marcus doesn't have injuries Felton probably takes WKU back to the sweet 16. But even without Chris Marcus during the majority of Feltons last 2 years, he still won the conference tourney and went to the NCAA's. So you mean to tell me ONE PLAYER has kept WKU from winning the conference tourney the past 4 years? If that is the case the WKU basketball program is in much worse shape than I imagined.

Danny Rumph's tragic death kept us out of the NCAA's last year. But had we made the NCAA that one year then no one would be calling for Horn's job. And again, that is my real beef.

No doubt both Arnold and Kilcullen both had some miserable seasons. But they both played in and won NCAA tourney games. Felton took over the WKU program at one the lowest points in the history of the program and had it back in the NCAA by his 3rd year. Horn took over a WKU program in much better shape than what Felton took over.

Felton is a good coach. I am proud to have had him on the hill and would have liked to of kept him longer. But my happiest memories of being a Topper fan were during the Willard years and that will be the standard by which I judge all coaches to come. And call it irrational, call it dumb, call it what you will, but I sincerely believe that Horn has a better chance of getting us back there then Felton ever did. And IMHO that is worth bearing through a few "subpar" 20 win seasons.

I guess I agree with you here. But a case could be made that the Subelt is just bad and the perception is actually a reality.

I thought N. Texas played a GREAT game when they came here. And watching Arkansas St. on TV... Banks is unreal, and how many post players did they have that looked like they could be in the NFL?? The talent level is clearly better in the Sunbelt than in say the OVC even if the results are not.

A serious question for you. Do you think the WKU hoops program is in better shape now than it was 4 years ago when Horn took over?

Right now... believe it or not... YES! When Horn took over we had a team riddled with defections, graduations and inexperience. Where as next year we are deeper, more experienced and more talented at every position then when Horn took over.
03-10-2007 07:44 PM
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