I hope North Dakota wins their lawsuit against the NCAA. We don't need the NCAA telling the schools what they can and can't call themselves.

In the absence of a consensus among Sioux in support of "Fighting Sioux," the nickname is indefensible.

Whether the NCAA is being "arbitrary" or "capricous" -- or whatever other ten dollar word people want to roll out to describe it -- is merely a side issue.

"Fighting Sioux" plays right into the stereotype of Indians raiding, looting and pillaging white folk. There shouldn't be a mystery about why some Sioux are pissed off about it. If the Central Michigan athletic department started branding its teams as "Fighting Chippewas," you better believe that the Chippewas would be raising holy hell.

If I were on the board of trustees for the University of North Dakota, I'd move to fire the president for committing intellectual malpractice.

Instead of using the gifts God gave him to go to the Sioux reservation and meet with tribal leaders for as long as it takes to understand their concerns and come up with a plan for resolving them, here he is lobbing another cheap ass open letter stunt at the NCAA.

His letter, no matter how eloquent, is empty until he willing to deal with the real, honest to God Sioux leaders living in his backyard.

Though I agree that the NCAA appears to be applying this rule in an arbitrary and caprecious manner, the letter is anything but eloquant. If he authored the appeal, it was probably rejected because of its verbosity and contentiousness.I have to agree with schadenfreude, that a better approach would be to find a workable agreement with the Sioux and then appeal to the NCAA. And for gosh sake, don't let this guy write it.

I think its just bad academics by the ncaa. In 50 years, kids will no longer know about the history of tribes of the Northwest territories. Chipps, Hurons, Miami , Erie, and others. Those names keep people from forgetting the past. Having an Indian mascot in headgear is not offensive. Having a mascot that is an unemployed drunk student, living in goverment housing,flunking every class, banging the dean's wife, and blowing parents money on lottery tickets, poker and strip clubs would be.

Schadenfreude Wrote:In the absence of a consensus among Sioux in support of "Fighting Sioux," the nickname is indefensible.

Then so is Fighting Irish, Rajun Cajuns, and Vandals.

It's your arbitary decision that it's "indefensible", you fail to provide any sound reasoning behind this. Progress is rarely made by waiting for a "concensus".

Quote:Whether the NCAA is being "arbitrary" or "capricous" -- or whatever other ten dollar word people want to roll out to describe it -- is merely a side issue.

Actually I believe it to be the main issue. The NCAA is a bully, a tyrant. It breaks its own rules, while neglecting those it is commissioned to enforce. Such is not a model for students, or for anyone.

Moreover, this issue would be discussed among the interested parties if the NCAA weren't involved.

Quote:"Fighting Sioux" plays right into the stereotype of Indians raiding, looting and pillaging white folk.

That is your choice to interpret it that way. You are projecting onto others that they think like you do.

Nevertheless, "Fighting Irish" plays into the stereotype of drunken, brawling, impovrished Irishmen. Hardly anything to defend. Yet the NCAA has passed here, why is that?

Quote: There shouldn't be a mystery about why some Sioux are pissed off about it. If the Central Michigan athletic department started branding its teams as "Fighting Chippewas," you better believe that the Chippewas would be raising holy hell.

If I were on the board of trustees for the University of North Dakota, I'd move to fire the president for committing intellectual malpractice.

WHOA! You're out of line here SF. You're the one violating all intellectual norms. You fail to present a rational defense of your position, your comments are laden with logical fallacies...if you want to to put forth that challenge, Kupchella will slice and dice you.

Quote:Instead of using the gifts God gave him to go to the Sioux reservation and meet with tribal leaders for as long as it takes to understand their concerns and come up with a plan for resolving them, here he is lobbing another cheap ass open letter stunt at the NCAA.

Yes. I'm hoping he sues. Evidently force and dollars are the only things the NCAA understands.

Quote:His letter, no matter how eloquent, is empty until he willing to deal with the real, honest to God Sioux leaders living in his backyard.

He has support of the N Dakota Sioux leaders...seems it's the more distant ones who have the complaint.

Schadenfreude Wrote:In the absence of a consensus among Sioux in support of "Fighting Sioux," the nickname is indefensible.

Consensus? When is the last time a group that large had a consensus on anything? Way to set up a strawman argument.

Indefensible? ... and way to knock down the strawman!

OUBOBCATJOHN Wrote:Having a mascot that is an unemployed drunk student, living in goverment housing,flunking every class, banging the dean's wife, and blowing parents money on lottery tickets, poker and strip clubs would be.

Hi, Eric Stratton, Rush Chairman - damn glad to meet you.

DrTorch Wrote:

Quote:"Fighting Sioux" plays right into the stereotype of Indians raiding, looting and pillaging white folk.

That is your choice to interpret it that way. You are projecting onto others that they think like you do.

Nevertheless, "Fighting Irish" plays into the stereotype of drunken, brawling, impovrished Irishmen. Hardly anything to defend. Yet the NCAA has passed here, why is that?

You're missing an important point - various American Indian groups lobbied the NCAA to do something here, and no concerned Irish groups did. Assuming the NCAA is doing this solely because someone felt guilty or self-righteous is misguided.

HuskieDan Wrote:

DrTorch Wrote:

Quote:"Fighting Sioux" plays right into the stereotype of Indians raiding, looting and pillaging white folk.

That is your choice to interpret it that way. You are projecting onto others that they think like you do.

Nevertheless, "Fighting Irish" plays into the stereotype of drunken, brawling, impovrished Irishmen. Hardly anything to defend. Yet the NCAA has passed here, why is that?

You're missing an important point - various American Indian groups lobbied the NCAA to do something here, and no concerned Irish groups did. Assuming the NCAA is doing this solely because someone felt guilty or self-righteous is misguided.

That's because the Irish are too drunk or hungover to form a lobby. Should they be penalized for that?

DrTorch Wrote:

HuskieDan Wrote:

DrTorch Wrote:

Quote:"Fighting Sioux" plays right into the stereotype of Indians raiding, looting and pillaging white folk.

That is your choice to interpret it that way. You are projecting onto others that they think like you do.

Nevertheless, "Fighting Irish" plays into the stereotype of drunken, brawling, impovrished Irishmen. Hardly anything to defend. Yet the NCAA has passed here, why is that?

You're missing an important point - various American Indian groups lobbied the NCAA to do something here, and no concerned Irish groups did. Assuming the NCAA is doing this solely because someone felt guilty or self-righteous is misguided.

That's because the Irish are too drunk or hungover to form a lobby. Should they be penalized for that?

So are the Indians, but they nominated a designated letter writer. You have to reward that level of organization.

Political correctness run amok. NCAA is a bully. This should not be their business, but rather between the schools involved and the tribe.

Also, where in the Bill of Rights does one find that we have the right to not be offended? My copy must be missing that page.

DrTorch Wrote:He has support of the N Dakota Sioux leaders...seems it's the more distant ones who have the complaint.

Incorrect. The Standing Rock Sioux are headquartered in Fort Yates, N.D.

As for the rest:

1. Huskie Dan saves me the trouble of stating the obvious, again. Irish-Americans aren't up in arms, Cajuns aren't up in arms and Vandals haven't walked our earth in 1,400 years.

2. If, as you say, "'Fighting Irish' plays into the stereotype of drunken, brawling, impovrished Irishmen" (and I agree with you) then I will accept that as a concession that "Fighting Sioux" is also problematic.

Finally: I don't have the resources to do a survey of where every Sioux/Lakota/Dakota nation is on this issue at this very moment, but it appears there is nowhere near a consensus.

http://www.und.nodak.edu/president/sioux.html

It is clear, however, that the Standing Rock Tribal Council was the first to ask UND to change the name, in a formal tribal resolution dated December 3, 1992 (and affirmed on December 2, 1998). The UND President's Office also received and has on file six other resolutions from tribal councils requesting a name change, all of them seemingly generated in response to appeals by a UND student advocacy organization. The resolutions include those of the Sisseton-Wahpeton Sioux Tribe, the Oglala Sioux Tribe, the Rosebud Sioux Tribe, the Yankton Sioux Tribe, the Crow Creek Sioux Tribe, and the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe.(7)

http://www.indianz.com/News/2005/010092.asp

Members of the Spirit Lake Nation voted on Tuesday to oppose the "Fighting Sioux" nickname and logo of the University of North Dakota, The Grand Forks Herald reported.

...

Four other tribes in North Dakota are already on record as opposing the name. But Kupchella claims some Sioux tribes previously gave their approval to the university.

This is the very latest on the issue:

http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/14819286.htm

BISMARCK, N.D. - A tribal college administrator is asking the Board of Higher Education to forgo a lawsuit over the University of North Dakota's "Fighting Sioux" nickname, saying the money would be better spent promoting diversity.

David Gipp, president of United Tribes Technical College in Bismarck, said in a letter to board members that the present school nickname and Indian head logo would not be used if the school were starting afresh.

"If that is the case, there is no good reason to keep the present logo and nickname, and no good reason to pursue a lawsuit against the NCAA, regardless of the 'tradition' of the nickname and the logo," Gipp wrote. "Instead, time could be spent over the next several years developing new traditions, and respectfully retiring the old ...

A possible solution