Raymond Williams, this is what it's about.

"After the scrimmage, tailback Raymond Williams was interviewed by a reporter from the Cleveland Plain Dealer. For good or bad, Williams will be a player that will get attention. As reported earlier, he is not attending every practice and is getting minimal playing time. To be honest, UT is loaded at the running back position. Williams isn't on the team to lead the Rockets to the promised land. He may never be a factor. But if he can graduate from college and get his life straight, maybe Tom Amstutz and his staff will have done their best coaching job.''

Of course, that is if you believe that every kid in his situation would not only have been admitted to the school but also selected to participate in an exclusive extracurricular activity.

Give it a rest about the good deed. If he was a "normal" human being, he would be at Owens Tech, trying to get an associate degree and get his life straight. (No knock on Owens Tech, had a cousin who taught there; just a different setting and admission standard)

I am sure Dean Pees, later Doug Martin said the same thing about Abram Elam initially.

KStud Wrote:Of course, that is if you believe that every kid in his situation would not only have been admitted to the school but also selected to participate in an exclusive extracurricular activity.

Give it a rest about the good deed. If he was a "normal" human being, he would be at Owens Tech, trying to get an associate degree and get his life straight. (No knock on Owens Tech, had a cousin who taught there; just a different setting and admission standard)

Toledo doesn't have admission standards.

KStud Wrote:Of course, that is if you believe that every kid in his situation would not only have been admitted to the school but also selected to participate in an exclusive extracurricular activity.

Give it a rest about the good deed. If he was a "normal" human being, he would be at Owens Tech, trying to get an associate degree and get his life straight. (No knock on Owens Tech, had a cousin who taught there; just a different setting and admission standard)

I am sure Dean Pees, later Doug Martin said the same thing about Abram Elam initially.

It has not been Owens Tech for quite a few years. It is Owens Community College now and I believe it has more students enrolled in classes between it's Toledo and Findlay campuses than both Toledo and BG do.

Why isn't spending a lot of time in jail enough for this kid to straighten out his life?

HuskieDan Wrote:Why isn't spending a lot of time in jail enough for this kid to straighten out his life?

Because the judge didn't feel that jail time would help the kid. Believe it or not, in some cases jail is not the best thing for the person in order to get their life changed around.

But that question you ask has nothing to do about UT or any of us. You should direct that to the judge.

Must we always reward those who deserve punishment and then justify it later, as our goal is to try to get the kid untracked to fulfill his future promise.

Actions have responsibilities that go with it. If you actions are bad you get treated w/a penalty that exists w/those actions. I would not always concur w/a judges analysis, by the way. There are a ton of bad judges on the bench, especially at the trial level/sentencing level.

I have no problem w/Toledos program, in fact there efforts on the field should inspire the rest of the conferance, that being said this kid should not be participating at all. Let him go to a CC get his AA and then go on w/his life should college be his desire.

connerito Wrote:Must we always reward those who deserve punishment and then justify it later, as our goal is to try to get the kid untracked to fulfill his future promise.

Actions have responsibilities that go with it. If you actions are bad you get treated w/a penalty that exists w/those actions. I would not always concur w/a judges analysis, by the way. There are a ton of bad judges on the bench, especially at the trial level/sentencing level.

I have no problem w/Toledos program, in fact there efforts on the field should inspire the rest of the conferance, that being said this kid should not be participating at all. Let him go to a CC get his AA and then go on w/his life should college be his desire.

So are you saying that you don't believe in the programs that city police and other organizations sponsor that get troubled kids off the street? You know, programs like basketball or boxing leagues that allow these kids to focus on something they have a desire for while they try to turn their life around. Having something like this to do can sometimes help the kid leave the troubles of the past behind and turn his life around.

There is even a City of Toledo Police sponsored boxing league that takes place in a building at UT. This league is for "troubled" kids that are trying to turn their life around. I supposed that you probably think the University of Toledo should distance itself from that and not allow it to take place in a building at UT?

Obviously when it comes to participating at a Division I-A University people are going to look at it differently than a league sponsored by police for troubled kids. A University has to be more careful and not do this for a lot of troubled kids, but doing it for 1 or 2 kids should not be looked at so badly. It's not like UT is throwing him on the field at every practice and it is not like he is going to be the man at UT. He is only playing on Friday's and Saturday's right now and he may not play at all this fall.


As for the CC comment and get an AA..........it is my understanding that the judge ordered him to enroll in a 4-year University in the state of Ohio.

This my school/your school crap is for the birds and completely unrelated to the brass tacks of the issue.

My hat is off to this kid for making an effort to get his sh!t together and becoming a productive member of society.

It's not a football thing. It's not a UT thing. It's a life thing.

edit:
I congratulate the coaching staff for being @sskickers for this kid.

Troubled youth has certainly been redefined. It used to be a troubled youth missed classes, spoke back to a teacher, disregarded adults instructions, had bad grades.

I have no problem w/those who utilize programs, as you mention, to better themselves from troubling experiences as a youth. Those programs have blessed many and are quite worthy. If you can get a kid to focus on positives and keep them out of trouble its worthy. Toledo should encourage and continue it. In fact, I financially support such programs in the inner city. But do we send everyone over to it. Do we send every youth over there ? Do we not punish those who commited crimes such as battery, aggravatred robberies, manslaugter ? These are serious crimes that must be punished in todays society.

Isn't this the problem in America we are redefining down such things as trouble youths. Now you commit several batteries, an agrravated battery and manslaughter, now you are just a troubled youth. No you are a felon. There are responsiblities in your actions.

This troubled youth pleaded to aggravated robbery, manslaughter, not to mention an earlier battery. He pled out to the above crimes so as to not get convicted of heftier crimes w/mandatory sentences.

The judges ruling that he must attend an Ohio 4 yr school, if true, sure leaves open alot of criticism from both sides (liberal and conservative thinkers). This judge has definitely pushed down the recommended guidelines for this kid sentence. In addition it was noted that he was the ring leader in this incident. Aggravating at the most limited when sentencing occurs.

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll.../602190405

That being said I do enjoy the competitiveness of the Rockets, just disagree bigtime on this one.

connerito Wrote:This troubled youth pleaded to aggravated robbery, manslaughter, not to mention an earlier battery. He pled out to the above crimes so as to not get convicted of heftier crimes w/mandatory sentences.

The judges ruling that he must attend an Ohio 4 yr school, if true, sure leaves open alot of criticism from both sides (liberal and conservative thinkers). This judge has definitely pushed down the recommended guidelines for this kid sentence. In addition it was noted that he was the ring leader in this incident. Aggravating at the most limited when sentencing occurs.

I thought the judges sentence was very progressive and logical [read: non-political]. Instead of giving a kid a jail sentence (when they get out of jail the kid would normally resort to crime) the judge sent him to COLLEGE. Instead of getting paroled in four years he's hitting a pay roll in four years.

Yeah. Tough decision. I don't believe every criminal can be rehabilitated, but I'm pretty sure this is the exception and not the rule. Kudos to the judge for SEEING THAT.

rocketfootball Wrote:

HuskieDan Wrote:Why isn't spending a lot of time in jail enough for this kid to straighten out his life?

Because the judge didn't feel that jail time would help the kid. Believe it or not, in some cases jail is not the best thing for the person in order to get their life changed around.

But that question you ask has nothing to do about UT or any of us. You should direct that to the judge.

Actually, the judge seems to have decided that going to school is the best thing for the kid instead of jail. I'd think that the prospect of going to jail - by flunking out of school - would be enough to straighten him out.

I don't see anywhere in the ruling where football is listed as a necessary component - it's school or jail.

Connerito,

Every kid does not deserve a 2nd chance. Obviously the judge feels that Raymond Williams is one that does.

There are kids in those leagues I spoke of that have committed crimes like robbery and so forth. Maybe you don't understand what a troubled youth is in an urban city if you think a troubled youth is one that just misses classes, spoke back to a teacher, had bad grades, and so forth. If that is what you think a troubled youth is, then I bet there are an awful lot of troubled youths out there.

Something to remember is that Raymond Williams did not shoot anyone, kill anyone, or attempt to shoot or kill anyone. The manslaughter charge is kind of weird to be honest. I guess the thought is that he put his friend in the position to be killed by attempting to rob someone with his friend and that someone just happened to have a gun and shot his friend to death. Williams is very lucky he wasn't shot to death too. One would wonder why the friend was shot so many times, but Williams wasn't? Perhaps the friend was leading the robbery attempt and now the prosecutors came after Williams with everything to try and earn some sort of justice.

Who knows if Williams would have been found guilty of some of the charges, like manslaughter. And if they did not plea bargain with him he might have fought the manslaughter charge and won on that charge. You don't know. Obviously if you are in his shoes and they are telling you that they believe you made a mistake and you can understand right from wrong and they give you the option to enroll in a 4-year university, maintain at least a C average, get your life in order, and graduate instead of going to jail.......you will plead to the manslaughter charge so that you can take advantage of that 2nd chance they are giving you.

You said - "Now you commit several batteries, an agrravated battery and manslaughter, now you are just a troubled youth."

Well, Williams did not commit several batteries....not even one battery charge. He did plead to involuntary manslaughter, and I gave an explanation of that already. Was Wiliams wrong? Yes. Was he trying to rob someone? Yes. Was he trying to kill someone? No. Was he trying to injure someone? No. Did he kill somone? No. Did he injure somone? No. I am not a judge so I don't know what I would have done if the case was in front of me, however, I have to respect a judge's decision. The judge knows more about the case, as well as the prosecutors, then you or I do. And if the prosecution had a very strong case there is no way they would have pleaded with Williams. They had to feel that there was some doubt that he would be convicted, or they felt that he probably didn't really deserve jail time either.

Judges intrepreting laws as opposed to following the rule of law and its recommendations is a problem.

That being said it is what it is. I don't have any ill will to the kid but judges need to do a better job

HuskieDan Wrote:

rocketfootball Wrote:

HuskieDan Wrote:Why isn't spending a lot of time in jail enough for this kid to straighten out his life?

Because the judge didn't feel that jail time would help the kid. Believe it or not, in some cases jail is not the best thing for the person in order to get their life changed around.

But that question you ask has nothing to do about UT or any of us. You should direct that to the judge.

Actually, the judge seems to have decided that going to school is the best thing for the kid instead of jail. I'd think that the prospect of going to jail - by flunking out of school - would be enough to straighten him out.

I don't see anywhere in the ruling where football is listed as a necessary component - it's school or jail.

Football was not apart of the ruling, but you are also not getting the point. In some cases an extracurricular activity is just what a troubled kid needs to help him get over that hump and turn his life around.

Is it just what Ray Williams needs? I don't know. Will he ever see any playing time at Toledo? I don't know. Will he ever see the UT football field on a weekday, for practice even? I don't know. Is Coach Amstutz a bad person for giving Williams a chance? I don't think so. Like I said before, it's not like he is just letting him go out there and play whenever and think of him as a key player on our team.


Obviously this is a hot topic for many people. It's really being blown way out right now because people know how good he was on the football field and people from school's that are UT's opponents want to believe that UT is just doing this for a competitive edge on the field and they want to believe that he is being brought onto the team to be a starter and a star for us. People want to believe that this is all based on UT being selfish and wanting a great player to be a better team and not anything to do with Williams as a human being and a person trying to turn his life around.

That is fine. You are always going to have people think that way when situations like these come up. And you can all give UT and Amstutz all the heat you want to. But, if Williams does become a better person because of this then in the end UT and Tom Amstutz will be the right person's here.......no matter what anyone says.

connerito Wrote:Judges intrepreting laws as opposed to following the rule of law and its recommendations is a problem.

That being said it is what it is. I don't have any ill will to the kid but judges need to do a better job

Now you're sounding really weird. So a judge is not supposed to interpret a law?

So if a cop sees you jaywalking and gives you a ticket, you go to court to try to fight it and say something like "people do it all the time and I didn't know it was a law"......you are saying that the judge should not interpret things and should find that you must pay for the ticket and all court costs you incur?

A better example would be that you did something illegal (nothing really comes to mind right now) and you go to court. You have never done anything wrong before and you even help out with charities and volunteering for different things. So the judge interprets that you are a good person and let's you get off without jail time or even a fine and says that the next time he won't be lenient. Are you saying that the judge is wrong to do this?


A perfect example is that I was a victim of a ring of robberies, kidnappings, and so forth. The one guy was caught and went to court, in which I was one of several people that testified as victims. He was found guilty and sentenced to the maximum of 190 years in jail. The rule of law and its recommendations, as you say, was that this person would be eligible for parole in 13 years! Yeah, 190 years in jail and eligible for parole in 13 years. However, the judge interpreted the situation and knew that the rule of the law wasn't right and he recommended that the guy would be denied parole forevery. The judge wrote this into the sentence and even appeared when the guy was up for parole, and the judge did his part to make sure that this person (who was definitely way past the type of person that could turn their life around) was not paroled.

rocketfootball Wrote:Obviously this is a hot topic for many people. It's really being blown way out right now because people know how good he was on the football field and people from school's that are UT's opponents want to believe that UT is just doing this for a competitive edge on the field and they want to believe that he is being brought onto the team to be a starter and a star for us. People want to believe that this is all based on UT being selfish and wanting a great player to be a better team and not anything to do with Williams as a human being and a person trying to turn his life around.

That is fine. You are always going to have people think that way when situations like these come up. And you can all give UT and Amstutz all the heat you want to. But, if Williams does become a better person because of this then in the end UT and Tom Amstutz will be the right person's here.......no matter what anyone says.

That is the rub, isn't it RF. Had taking kids off the streets that had been in trouble been commonplace, this sentiment wouldn't come up. But the fact is that he was a stud recruit and this is a precedent being set. Now, if Tom is going good samaritan on us, I think it's great. I however am skeptical that this is the kind of thing that is going to be offered to others, and I'd be very surprised if I were alone in that sentiment.

HuskieDan Wrote:

rocketfootball Wrote:Obviously this is a hot topic for many people. It's really being blown way out right now because people know how good he was on the football field and people from school's that are UT's opponents want to believe that UT is just doing this for a competitive edge on the field and they want to believe that he is being brought onto the team to be a starter and a star for us. People want to believe that this is all based on UT being selfish and wanting a great player to be a better team and not anything to do with Williams as a human being and a person trying to turn his life around.

That is fine. You are always going to have people think that way when situations like these come up. And you can all give UT and Amstutz all the heat you want to. But, if Williams does become a better person because of this then in the end UT and Tom Amstutz will be the right person's here.......no matter what anyone says.

That is the rub, isn't it RF. Had taking kids off the streets that had been in trouble been commonplace, this sentiment wouldn't come up. But the fact is that he was a stud recruit and this is a precedent being set. Now, if Tom is going good samaritan on us, I think it's great. I however am skeptical that this is the kind of thing that is going to be offered to others, and I'd be very surprised if I were alone in that sentiment.

And like I said, you feel that way because you really don't know Amstutz. Amstutz has always been that type of guy. Ask Chester Taylor about Amstutz. He brought Chester in, out of a bad place, and helped him get academically eligible and turn around his life and become an NFL football player. When Brandon Hefflin had the bar incident, Amstutz could have just ordered him to go to AA and anger management classes. Instead, Amstutz went with him to every single class.

And it's not like Amstutz gives everyone a chance. A linebacker that started several games and was expected to be a starting outside linebacker that fall was completely removed from the team when he was caught selling a prescription drug. Obviously Amstutz felt that this person did not deserve to be given another chance, despite the fact that he was a prominent player on the team.

A promising freshman tight end was removed from the team for his role in that frat party fight in 2004. He did a lot less and was charged with a lot less than another individual that was a walk-on, yet both were removed from the team......not just the walk-on.

Amstutz is going to make judgment calls based on the whole situation. Sometimes he may end up being wrong on the kid's character and it won't work out or he may not let a kid play anymore and the kid ends up turning his life around anyway. Nobody is perfect. But that doesn't mean that Amstutz is not sincere.

Anyone that has met Amstutz has said that he is a very sincere guy that really cares. I am sorry that you are skeptical.

As for taking kids off the street. Ray Williams came to UT. Amstutz didn't even know he was here at first. Ray Williams came to Amstutz and asked to walk onto the team last fall. Amstutz said no. He felt the timing wasn't right for Williams. If Amstutz just wanted a competitive edge, why didn't he let Williams walk-on then? Ray williams has again come to Amstutz and asked to walk onto the team. Amstutz has allowed him to participate in a limited basis and is leaning towards letting him walk on this fall. That also doesn't mean that Ray Williams will ever be on the fall roster.

UT__Rockets Wrote:Raymond Williams, this is what it's about.

"After the scrimmage, tailback Raymond Williams was interviewed by a reporter from the Cleveland Plain Dealer. For good or bad, Williams will be a player that will get attention. As reported earlier, he is not attending every practice and is getting minimal playing time. To be honest, UT is loaded at the running back position. Williams isn't on the team to lead the Rockets to the promised land. He may never be a factor. But if he can graduate from college and get his life straight, maybe Tom Amstutz and his staff will have done their best coaching job.''

Hopefully, Toledo isn't "paying" his freight...aka "scholarship" (tuition/room/board).

Nothing wrong with him practicing with the team...but if $$$$ are used on "this" player...vs another kid from Ohio who wasn't involved in a murder or someone found guilty of involuntary manslaughter...then Toledo Alumni should be embarrased.

KL

KnightLight Wrote:

UT__Rockets Wrote:Raymond Williams, this is what it's about.

"After the scrimmage, tailback Raymond Williams was interviewed by a reporter from the Cleveland Plain Dealer. For good or bad, Williams will be a player that will get attention. As reported earlier, he is not attending every practice and is getting minimal playing time. To be honest, UT is loaded at the running back position. Williams isn't on the team to lead the Rockets to the promised land. He may never be a factor. But if he can graduate from college and get his life straight, maybe Tom Amstutz and his staff will have done their best coaching job.''

Hopefully, Toledo isn't "paying" his freight...aka "scholarship" (tuition/room/board).

Nothing wrong with him practicing with the team...but if $$$$ are used on "this" player...vs another kid from Ohio who wasn't involved in a murder or someone found guilty of involuntary manslaughter...then Toledo Alumni should be embarrased.

KL

He is not under any scholarship.