Schad&Oddball, You guys could write a script for a M. Moore or O. Stone movie with all those conspiricy theories!!!!!! :snore:

hilltopper Wrote:Schad&Oddball, You guys could write a script for a M. Moore or O. Stone movie with all those conspiricy theories!!!!!! :snore:

Easy now, PillPopper, some of what they say is valid. If you have nothing to add to this REASONED discourse, then shoo!

The Knight Time Wrote:Btw, KT, since you're so gung-ho for Geedubya's programs, I assume you have signed up for active duty in Iraq. When do you ship out?

Oh, I forgot- it's all just a big fraud incident. We're just stealing the white house and government. :rolleyes:

The least you could do is take DEFEAT like a friggin man and stop bitching about cheating and "illegal" activities.

It amazes me what lengths you'll go to for the sake of legitimatizing your liberal points of view. [/quote]
It was fraud, and successful fraud, at that. Congrats!

You didn't answer me. A huge supporter of Bush's policies, like yourself, who is the right age for military service, must be chomping at the bit to go to Iraq. When do you leave?

Rightupinthere Wrote:

Oddball Wrote:When you add voter fraud, voter discouragement programs, and the uninformed and ignorant to the nutjobs, apparently you have a very successful campaign. :rolleyes:

Oddy, I respect your opion. I may not agree with all of it, but I respect it.

With that said, there is more voter fraud financed by left leaning interests. There is more voter discouragement on the right - true, but it pales in comparison.

I appreciate your civil tone, and will try and maintain it as I ask, "Huh?" :D

hilltopper Wrote:Schad&Oddball, You guys could write a script for a M. Moore or O. Stone movie with all those conspiricy theories!!!!!! :snore:

Geez, there is an intelligent and well-thought out rebuttal to everything that has been said. While I cannot speak for my fine-feathered friend, I am, personally, completely abashed.

I now see the error of my ways. FDR, JFK and Bill Clinton were all terrible men. Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush are the two greatest presidents ever. Jesus came to make the rich richer, maintain the status quo in religion and government, and to admonish the poor to shut the hell up.

How could I have been so wrong?

Oddball Wrote:

Rightupinthere Wrote:

Oddball Wrote:When you add voter fraud, voter discouragement programs, and the uninformed and ignorant to the nutjobs, apparently you have a very successful campaign. :rolleyes:

Oddy, I respect your opion. I may not agree with all of it, but I respect it.

With that said, there is more voter fraud financed by left leaning interests. There is more voter discouragement on the right - true, but it pales in comparison.

I appreciate your civil tone, and will try and maintain it as I ask, "Huh?" :D

I haven't ingested my daily alotment of coffee yet so I apologize for my muddled post. I will always have a civil tone in energetic dialog. It gets the mental juices flowing. I LOVE active and reasoned debate (I hate politics - go figure).

I digress.

You state that voter fraud and voter discouragement were the keys to a Bush victory.

I countered that voter fraud is more prevalent and heavily financed by left leaning interests - which it is.
I believe there was a very smart campaign which played on Kerry's history and interpretations of his history was the key to a Bush victory. I don't believe voter intimidation/fraud was a factor.

I believe voter fraud helped Kerry more - but still pretty minor in the overall scheme of things.

Now that this topic is well on the way to obscurity, I'm going out for coconuts. Anybody got a swallow?

Oddball Wrote:It was fraud, and successful fraud, at that. Congrats!

I love ya like an ugly brother Oddball, but we disagree here.

I respect Jesse Jackson. In fact, I regret not voting for him in the '88 primary.

But I think he needs to shut the **** up and move on.

It is probably true that some poor neighborhoods in Columbus did not have enough voting machines, and this was probably more true of poor neighborhoods than of wealthy ones.

I waited in line two hours and I'm still unhappy about that.

I'm also certain more Democratic voters were driven away because of this than Republicans.

But this wasn't a conspiracy. This wasn't fraud. It wasn't even systematic. It was just incompetence and poor planning.

If there was a grand conspiracy to steal the election in Ohio, these babbling idiots need to explain two things clearly:

1. How was this accomplished when every Board of Elections is split down the middle between Republicans and Democrats?

2. How in the world could 120,000 more votes been produced for Kerry in all of this?

There are some valid issues coming out of all of this. Electronic voting without a paper trail is a terrible idea. Something obviously needs to be done about the long lines of 2004, which were an absolutely disgrace.

I share people's absolute disgust with George Bush. He's a miserable excuse for a president, a complete disgrace. He embarasses me every time I see him on television. I'm ashamed of him, in fact.

I also think Ken Blackwell is a son of a *****. All I need to know about him I learned when he insisted that voter registration cards must be rejected if they weren't filed on the proper weight of paper.

But we need to move on. Bush squeaked out a victory. Let's start playing defense on all these horrible ideas Bush is going to shove down our throats the next four years... if we do that well and are persuasive enough, the Republicans won't stand a chance in '08... because they are really making a mess of our country.

Schadenfreude Wrote:I also think Ken Blackwell is a son of a *****.

Something else we agree upon, Schad. Kenny is only looking for political gain. He wants to be governor some day.

That said, he would be better than the moron we have now. Then again, paper weight could do no worse.

Schadenfreude Wrote:

Oddball Wrote:It was fraud, and successful fraud, at that. Congrats!

I love ya like an ugly brother Oddball, but we disagree here.

I respect Jesse Jackson. In fact, I regret not voting for him in the '88 primary.

But I think he needs to shut the **** up and move on.

It is probably true that some poor neighborhoods in Columbus did not have enough voting machines, and this was probably more true of poor neighborhoods than of wealthy ones.

I waited in line two hours and I'm still unhappy about that.

I'm also certain more Democratic voters were driven away because of this than Republicans.

But this wasn't a conspiracy. This wasn't fraud. It wasn't even systematic. It was just incompetence and poor planning.

If there was a grand conspiracy to steal the election in Ohio, these babbling idiots need to explain two things clearly:

1. How was this accomplished when every Board of Elections is split down the middle between Republicans and Democrats?

2. How in the world could 120,000 more votes been produced for Kerry in all of this?

There are some valid issues coming out of all of this. Electronic voting without a paper trail is a terrible idea. Something obviously needs to be done about the long lines of 2004, which were an absolutely disgrace.

I share people's absolute disgust with George Bush. He's a miserable excuse for a president, a complete disgrace. He embarasses me every time I see him on television. I'm ashamed of him, in fact.

I also think Ken Blackwell is a son of a *****. All I need to know about him I learned when he insisted that voter registration cards must be rejected if they weren't filed on the proper weight of paper.

But we need to move on. Bush squeaked out a victory. Let's start playing defense on all these horrible ideas Bush is going to shove down our throats the next four years... if we do that well and are persuasive enough, the Republicans won't stand a chance in '08... because they are really making a mess of our country.

Actually, I agree with most of that. We'll never know for sure what went on, or how organized it was, but it is, indeed, over.

I was at a townhall meeting last night, even the Republican officials on the panel agreed that current election procedures are scary, dangerous, and very open to fraud. They even agreed that the current system, even if it is on the up and up, leaves itself open for accusations of fraud, which discourages voting, and therefore discourages democracy. Keep in mind, these were Texas Republicans.

Like Conyers has stated, investigating the fraud and disenfranchisement allegations isn't about overturning the election, it is about ensuring that the democratic process is upheld, and the voting populace has confidence in the system

Personally, I don't believe in either right now.

Rightupinthere Wrote:

Oddball Wrote:

Rightupinthere Wrote:

Oddball Wrote:When you add voter fraud, voter discouragement programs, and the uninformed and ignorant to the nutjobs, apparently you have a very successful campaign. :rolleyes:

Oddy, I respect your opion. I may not agree with all of it, but I respect it.

With that said, there is more voter fraud financed by left leaning interests. There is more voter discouragement on the right - true, but it pales in comparison.

I appreciate your civil tone, and will try and maintain it as I ask, "Huh?" :D

I haven't ingested my daily alotment of coffee yet so I apologize for my muddled post. I will always have a civil tone in energetic dialog. It gets the mental juices flowing. I LOVE active and reasoned debate (I hate politics - go figure).

I digress.

You state that voter fraud and voter discouragement were the keys to a Bush victory.

I countered that voter fraud is more prevalent and heavily financed by left leaning interests - which it is.
I believe there was a very smart campaign which played on Kerry's history and interpretations of his history was the key to a Bush victory. I don't believe voter intimidation/fraud was a factor.

I believe voter fraud helped Kerry more - but still pretty minor in the overall scheme of things.

I still do not understand.

Schadenfreude Wrote:There are some valid issues coming out of all of this. Electronic voting without a paper trail is a terrible idea. Something obviously needs to be done about the long lines of 2004, which were an absolutely disgrace.

I see nothing disgraceful about this. It's a minor inconvenience, especially when compared to what our ancestors endured. Personally, I think people need a bit of perspective.

I don't argue w/ the need for a paper-trail of some sorts. Just keep in mind, ANY system can be abused. Come up w/ a feasible plan, a workable solution, and promote it.

If you want those on the political Left to make a comeback, they should recognize that the average Joe is sick of hearing complaints. Not that some people don't have legitimate grievances, but the perception is that complaining is now the standard platform for the Left. That doesn't fly.

You can call me simple-minded, but if McAuliff figures out that one thing, he'll have a much better record.

DrTorch Wrote:

Schadenfreude Wrote:There are some valid issues coming out of all of this. Electronic voting without a paper trail is a terrible idea. Something obviously needs to be done about the long lines of 2004, which were an absolutely disgrace.

I see nothing disgraceful about this. It's a minor inconvenience, especially when compared to what our ancestors endured. Personally, I think people need a bit of perspective.

I don't argue w/ the need for a paper-trail of some sorts. Just keep in mind, ANY system can be abused. Come up w/ a feasible plan, a workable solution, and promote it.

If you want those on the political Left to make a comeback, they should recognize that the average Joe is sick of hearing complaints. Not that some people don't have legitimate grievances, but the perception is that complaining is now the standard platform for the Left. That doesn't fly.

You can call me simple-minded, but if McAuliff figures out that one thing, he'll have a much better record.

I'd rather call McAulif simple-minded. You, Torch, are quite intelligent. Very often wrong, of course, but quite capable of thinking your way to the wrong conclusions. :D

DrTorch Wrote:I see nothing disgraceful about this.  It's a minor inconvenience, especially when compared to what our ancestors endured.

You could rationalize anything with this statement: "Especially when compared to what our ancestors endured."

I mean, come on: Our ancestors were once hunters and gathers who dreamed of living to the ripe old age of 40.

When is the last time you waited two hours in line for something?

TWO HOURS! It's disgraceful.

Quote:If you want those on the political Left to make a comeback, they should recognize that the average Joe is sick of hearing complaints. 

Kind of like this snivelly Ball State kid?

The remarkable thing to be about right-wing radio is that they still manage to do nothing but complain even though their party owns Washington (and Columbus) lock, stock and barrel.

Schadenfreude Wrote:

DrTorch Wrote:I see nothing disgraceful about this.  It's a minor inconvenience, especially when compared to what our ancestors endured.

You could rationalize anything with this statement: "Especially when compared to what our ancestors endured."

When is the last time you waited two hours in line for something?

TWO HOURS! It's disgraceful.

Two words: Cedar Point.

How long have people waited for concert tickets, amusement park rides, or for the latest Harry Potter book?

I've waited that long enough times getting around on the Capitol Beltway. I didn't like it, but I didn't see myself as a martyr either.

Quote: I mean, come on: Our ancestors were once hunters and gathers who dreamed of living to the ripe old age of 40.

I'm not talking 10,000 years of human history. I'm talking Little House on the Praire or The Grapes of Wrath ancestors.

According to most reports, highly democratic precincts had the wait, highly republican ones had no lines.

That is the issue.

DrTorch Wrote:I'm not talking 10,000 years of human history. I'm talking Little House on the Praire or The Grapes of Wrath ancestors.

The ones who burned animal dung to stay alive?

Don't forget the weeks-long effort to scare away traditionally Democratic voters from the polls through intimidation and bogus mailings leading up to election day. That was part of the strategy, too.

How many elderly minority voters stayed home because they got an ominous-looking mailing telling them if they had gotten a parking ticket in the past, they'd be arrested if they tried to vote? (This happened in Cleveland and Milwaukee, btw...)

Oddball Wrote:

DrTorch Wrote:I'm not talking 10,000 years of human history.  I'm talking Little House on the Praire or The Grapes of Wrath ancestors.

The ones who burned animal dung to stay alive?

A 2 hr wait w/ your 7-11 coffee doesn't seem so bad.

Oddball Wrote:According to most reports, highly democratic precincts had the wait, highly republican ones had no lines.

That is the issue.

Quote:A record number? A record number also voted for Kerry. A record number VOTED.

There is a connection here.