The problem with test scores is that they are only test scores.

When students need to go to school in shifts and classes put in trailers outside the school something needs to be done.

And physical education needs to be realized as important as academics. Fat dead people are no good to us.

niuguy Wrote:The problem with test scores is that they are only test scores.

When students need to go to school in shifts and classes put in trailers outside the school something needs to be done.

And physical education needs to be realized as important as academics. Fat dead people are no good to us.

I agree that there needs to be balance. Test scores and physical health are related as studies have shown. Since educators love studies, I am sure that they are well aware of this fact.

Teaching in shifts is not all bad if it is to consume a scarce resource - typically a gymnasium or lab or whatever. Likewise I had some classes in mobile units when I was a kid and I think that I turned out OK (although my wife will vehemently dispute this). Typically the trailers are the result of the local population temporarily exceeding the classroom space. Whether it is the stratification of those kids in the various age groups or some boundaries need to shift to accomodate the children in a different school in the district, there are better ways to handle that situation.

I am not saying to short change schools of what they need. The problem is that every WANT turns into a NEED. School boards consider taxes an endless supply of money to be spent as they see fit, until they run out of their allocation and then they seek more money, not budget cuts.

The #1 problem is the expectation level of parents and teachers. If you set low expectations, that is what you are going to get. Thank heaven for the No Child Left Behind act to force these schools into improving their expectation levels. OMG - the teachers have to (gasp!) teach???

If I didn't have friends who are teachers and tell me some of the things that go one, I would probably be as altruistic as some on this board. But I have heard different stories that jaundice my views now.

Im not convinced that taking money away from schools helps them improve their test scores.

If anything, teaching to improve test scores hurts a childs education. Not only that, but like i said..when we all start freaking out about test scores equally important areas such as physical education and the arts get the short end of the stick.

Im not saying we shouldnt use test scores to help guage our childrens education, but its only one tool of many.

I think the no child left behind act is horrid. Too much emphasis on test scores...and then when schools do poorely they are punished which ends up hurting the students even more.

I think the government shouldnt be using negative reinforcment to help teach our kids. It should be helping teachers through training and encouraging parents to be more active. THAT will ensure that no child is left behind.

Also..not to get too off topic....but since when has the republican party decided to be the party of big governement and the party minimizing states rights?

niuguy Wrote:Im not convinced that taking money away from schools helps them improve their test scores.

If anything, teaching to improve test scores hurts a childs education. Not only that, but like i said..when we all start freaking out about test scores equally important areas such as physical education and the arts get the short end of the stick.

Im not saying we shouldnt use test scores to help guage our childrens education, but its only one tool of many.

I think the no child left behind act is horrid. Too much emphasis on test scores...and then when schools do poorely they are punished which ends up hurting the students even more.

I think the government shouldnt be using negative reinforcment to help teach our kids. It should be helping teachers through training and encouraging parents to be more active. THAT will ensure that no child is left behind.

Also..not to get too off topic....but since when has the republican party decided to be the party of big governement and the party minimizing states rights?

I think that schools are locked into auto pilot with their increases limited to the rate of inflation. When they exceed the rate of inflation, then it requires voter approval. No money is "taken away".

One thing I have learned in my years on this earth - people WANT to do what's expected, people WILL do what is inspected. The taxpayers inspection mechanism is the test score results. When the teachers and administrators kept setting ever lower expectations and wanting to boost the self esteem of Johnny and Susie, they didn't want to let learning get in the way. Now they have to consider academic progress along with Johnny and Susie's self esteem. My friends in education had indicated that what they want to teach and what they are allowed to teach are two different things. Everything must be politically correct and you must water down the classes to move the kids along. Additionally some of the teachers themselves don't want work to do, so the homework assignments are always easy and tests are just as easy using nothing by multiple choice questions.

The schools that are doing poorly are typically raising cane that "No Child Left Behind" is an unfair law. Determine what they are actually saying and it is bunk. They might have some special ed kids that dragged the overall school scores down and therefore they "failed". The fix is to see if there is another school that has slots to take these kids. When they can't find a school with open slots, the problem has been addressed and time to move on. Did the school leave some children behind? Yes. Was there a large negative impact? No. Just the embarassment part that the school left some kids behind.

And as for those free-spending, rotten SOBs in Congress, you don't even want me to go down that road. That is what we have a second amendment for. When the people have finally had enough of the tyranny of government, our founding fathers had that remedy built in also. And the states rights issue may be even more touchy for me than those free-spending cowards in congress.

We are probably a little too off topic and I don't want to go down the political path on this board. Thanks for your insight.

I used to play this war game and the offtopic board would just run rampint of left-right debates. While i despise them....i miss them :)

PSE NIU Wrote:I didn't know it was a rule, I thought Bessie had just appointed herself.

I believe that in a majority of suburbs the mayor is also the liquor commisioner. I know that is how it is in Naperville.

Yeah the tests are a great way to tell how teachers are doing their jobs. Especially when the students finish within five minutes of starting. Or fill in F*CK with the bubbles. Maybe if we give pizza parties and cars they will take the test seriously. HA. NCLB is a bunch of crap. While teacher accountability is important, the tests show nothing of value. Every year the results are from different students with different backgrounds. Some students may not have even been at their school last year. I have seen students take spelling tests that are fill in the bubble multiple choice. all in preparation for filling out bubbles on a scantron. Teachers have to waste time on teaching test taking skills....or how to beat the system 101...instead of teaching how to write/add/etc.. And talk about watering down the system, they took social studies off the test so obviously history is not important anymore....nor is the knowing the Constitution (which I believe is optional now). We need to understand some children WILL be left behind. Should a school fail because students with special needs or fresh from the border folk cannot do geometry? or write an essay? Look at the schools NCLB is helping....East St. Louis maybe?
Oh and don't forget where the idea came from...Texas schools that are now showing large signs of corruption and score manipulation. Maybe they call it selective student shuffling. Whatever. People need to realize that the world needs ditch diggers too....and that those DDs will make lots of cash.

I needed "Glory Glory" in the background.

niuguy Wrote:Also..not to get too off topic....but since when has the republican party decided to be the party of big governement and the party minimizing states rights?

The republican party has always been in favor of big government and federal govenrment intrusion.....but only WHEN IT SERVES THEIR PURPOSE.

On another note, has anyone noticed how they teach math these days? Addition is performed from left to right rather than the tried and true right to left we all learned. Subtraction uses the "trade first method" also going from left to right.

Additionally, many teachers(not all) are grading young kids only if the "match the answer in the book" on a recent exam my daughter was asked to provide "another number for 2-3/4" she wrote 2-6/8 and was marked wrong.

If the intent is to make teachers accountable then lets give the teachers standardized tests to make sure that they in fact are prepared to teach our childeren. I know this is not popular with teachers, but why wait until they are already in classrooms to find out if they can perform their jobs.

I know step off my soap box.

This is a lively and among the favorite topics of mine to discuss. Too bad there is not a side chat room for divergent topics not related to NIU athletcs but of interest to some of its posters.

I'll try to but cannot be brief. Few things in education are really "new". Forty years ago, NY state had a testing / accountability program. I'm familiar with it. Many teachers taught the test for weeks ahead of the test date - at the expense of a month's work of curriculum overlooked. Others teachers like those in other professions were pressured to perform - so they cheated on behalf of weak students after collecting answer sheets. Yes - many teachers and students legally met the test goals - so measured learning took place and few were left behind. Never mind a months work of put adise reradyoing for the test. Kinda reminds me of training hamsters or chimps to perform.

The test manufactures/designers keep insisting how neutral the exams are for all segments of US society. Do you honestly believe that ? In addition many exams are changed regularly so the statistical data keeps on changing. Illinois IGAP has been amusing to track. Its a bit of a shell game.

Little doubt many private schools offer superior academic training. My two kids and myself are grads of private grammar schools. One is a CFA from graduated from NIU and another a post grad school graduate from Berkeley.

However many exclusive public schools in mostly affluent communities also offer superior training for future academic success. Again my two kids attended public HS.

What's the "secret" to better test results and real learning ? MONEY buys best resources and the best staff working mostly with parents (private or public school parents) who supervise their kids and instill values such respect for education, the benefits of networking/joining school activities etc etc . Those and other variables result in better test scores. With few exceptions mostl teachers IMO try their damndest to be" accountable. Like any profession there are slackers and incompetents and they find jobs in all walks of life outside of the classroom - just look at me !

Try raising test scores of students who come from homes of missing/disinterested parents & lacking in many values which lead to success. How many kids from those familes are found enrolled in private schools? How many learning disabled or autistic kids are enrolled in private schools? How many are enrolled in alternative classes in private schools because they cannot cope/conform to academic and conduct requirements??Those and many other needs such as psychologists / truant officers etc drive up public school costs and taxes and drive scores downward. Can YOU teach a pig to fly? Its always about the MONEY.

MONEY more than anything determines how group test results will fall.

Until the federal, state and local govemrments convince the majority of tax payers that equal opportunity for an education is nearly impossible without equal funding , this testing - NCLB - or whatever eventually replaces it with another "new" reform - will simply wither away to be replaced by another band aid solution.

Finally I'm NOT suggesting simply throwing good money after bad is any solution either. However, we are all fooling ourselves if we think more testing and more reform legislation will somehow dramatically change much if we also continue to believe local property taxes can continue to be the primary source of funding . Think of the many poorer and large familes in apartments in urban areas sending illprepared kids to crappy, poorly run poorly funded schools while paying little in local property tax themselves. Where is the sense to that MONEY equation? To make matters worse and getting to the original point of this subtopic (DeKalb voters & schoools), a great many of those poorer parents of poorer kids with low scores don't register to vote !

well said ^^

I am trying to figure out why the public elementary schools in Arlington are spending 2 -3 times the money on education per student than St. James Elementary and their test scores are lower. What exactly were you saying about money = performance? They don't recruit - they are mostly parishioners.

Again, these taxes are increasing at the rate of inflation. Teachers are being paid at least at the rate of inflation (more in most cases with unioin contracts). The problem is not the money. The problem is the expectation that since Johnny and Susie are nice kids, we can't expect them to try hard because that might hurt their self esteem. Keep it easy so that they feel good about themselves. Oh Yeah - We need more money!!!

:wave:

I don't think its just the money...tho it helps.

When you live in a wealthier community not only is more money spent on schools the quality of the parenting is probobly much better. More two parent homes with parents who care about their kids.

Then you have other schools that have to deal not only with lack of funding but the lack of quality homes for kids to live in. Everything goes for the kids in the wealthy communities while everything is against those in the poorer areas. Its a cycle.

I definitely agree with you about the parenting for the kids NIUGUY. That is a large part of it. My kid knows he is in serious trouble right now for getting a "C" in English and he is not only not going to get a drivers permit, he is looking at getting grounded without phone or TV. In other households, a "C" would be celebrated. I expect more from my kid and he delivers - usually. Kids will usually do the least amount that is expected of them. Some will naturally excel, but if you are a teacher, you have to set the bar high and encourage the students to hit that bar. Parental and teacher expectations have nothing to do with money.

While I also agree that a test is not going to stratify everyone's abilities, and some schools may stoop to teaching to the test and cheating, overall it is a measurement that the kids are getting taught something rather than nothing. What explains the ever declining ACT and SAT scores? No accountability. "Those that can - do; All others teach." Correcting this decline is not just money.

Am I saying teach the kids without books or desks? Of course not. I am saying let's see some results for our tax dollars. I am getting away cheap for about $5K a year in property taxes and I know that there are higher tax communities than mine. I strongly disagree that the ever increasing amount of taxes is going to fix the problem. If in 1960, we had test scores of X for a cost of Y, and today we have test scores of .75 X for a cost of 3 times Y (inflation adjusted), it must be because of the money, right?

NIUJDK Wrote:Keep it easy so that they feel good about themselves. Oh Yeah - We need more money!!!

They keep it easy so the test scores go up. Why else keep removing the tough subjects from the state tests? History - gone. Writing - gone. Next year they're back. The test is never the same, so how does it measure anything. All testing does is give statisics that ca be manipulated to say anything. Maybe soon all schools will be run like corporations with the elite schools being able to woo the best teachers, and too bad for all the low income schools. Plus, how do these test help the students taking them? Especially if they don't take them seriously? Thank God we are giving them the ability to fill in scantron for 8 hours a day...that is a skill we all use daily...you know unlike writing.

- lotto/gambling is to schools what the toll authority is to toll ways -

I meant the day to day test scores in school, not the standardized tests. I agree that there should be writing and critical thinking in the exam, like the SAT or CPA exams. No disagreement whatsoever from me. As a matter of fact, get rid of the scan tron sheets and make it essay and fill in the blank.

I guess the way to look at this is low income people don't care about their kid's school performance and middle class parents do - per your stratification. How else do you explain the willingness to spend time with the kids and improve their performance? All genetics? I have already illustrated it is not the money once the basic books, desks, decent school environment needs are met. The money provided by the states heavily favors the inner city schools already in far more dollars than what is awarded to the suburban schools.

So the answer for people who want to spend other people's money is to chastise the test and chastise the voters for not wanting unending tax increases. Your logic defies logic. The parental and teacher expectations from the students are too low - that is problem, and your comments merely illustrate that you would do the same as they are doing now. I have provided a concrete example in my community that the dollars are not the difference. I am sure the inner city schools get way way way more money than my local parish school, and they aren't performing. Why? Oh yeah, they need even more money.

niuguy Wrote:I don't think its just the money...tho it helps.

When you live in a wealthier community not only is more money spent on schools the quality of the parenting is probobly much better. More two parent homes with parents who care about their kids.

Then you have other schools that have to deal not only with lack of funding but the lack of quality homes for kids to live in. Everything goes for the kids in the wealthy communities while everything is against those in the poorer areas. Its a cycle.

You wording is iffy there NIUGUY, careful.

I would submit that in wealthier communitities kids are more likely from two parents homes with only one parent working, allowing for more time spent with kids helpling with their homework.

Additionaly, those in wealthier communities who could care less( and I know there are some) just hire a tutor!!

I don't understand the "those who can do, and all else teach" statement. (not from above, but in general). Those who can wouldn't be able to, if those who could hadn't decided to teach them. Schools are changing and not much is up to the teachers anymore. If a student doesn't do their homework EVER, the teacher should be able to flunk them or hold them back. However this is no longer the case. If a students does no homework yet can pass the final exam, thereby demonstrating skills, the teacher MUST pass that student. I agree money cannot fix this, nor can parenting. They both help but the whole school structur needs to be rethought. Schools are become more empathic and they should at the lower levels, but if High School is prepping kids for college than it should be set up like college. If you want to skip a class, skip it. If you want to be late, be late. If you don't want to learn, don't learn. Why should teacher have to hold the student's hands? Sort of like NIUJDK said above, the parents need to be more involved and should be accountable also. Although blaming the teachers for a students inability or lack of desire to learn is easier.
It's like one of yous stated above, NCLB is just the latest thing until the "new" thing shows up.


Wait this is an NIU board....WTF!
topic vs. discussion
:chair:

NIUJDK,

perhaps you overloked one of my muddled points.

Tell me more about all the special needs classes at St James for kids with learning disabilities, thre menatlly challenged, and the truant ones from broken homes attending alternative schools at remote sites and bussed ?

Does St James have personnel trained and hired to address these needs?

I know my catholic grammar school didnt and neither did the one's my two kids attended. We did not need them in most instances becasue those kids were all in the public schools helping lower test scores. We paid extra for things like band and donated to the church weekly to fund the school as well as attended and worked fundraisers. Are you counting those dollars in the expenses of educating private students?

Do the private school kids oftentimes trash buildings & require large custodial staffs to unclog toilets and erase gang graffiti regularly? Are police called there occasionally to break up fights or arrest drug dealers & take staff away from class time or adminsitrative duties?

There is part of the cost difference per pupil - some of the many "wasted" tax dollars going down the toilet - literally and figuratively.

Who is paying for the bus rides from and to schools and athletic events?

I understand what you are saying and no doubt that some, but not all, of the difference is due to the factors you have cited. I don't disagree. As you know most private schools don't have the teachers for the special ed kids. But to think that they number any where near a population to affect the overall score in a meaningful way is a smoke screen. My nephew had a learning disability and the closest public elementary school nearest my house (they were living with me at the time) didn't support these kids. So they also had to move him to another school. Even the close school did not have the test scores to match up.

The school bus was the same one that he would take to the public school if he had attended it; all funded with my tax dollars. And yes, the monies expended from fundraisers and the like are in the annual budget.

What I vehemently object to is the claim that money will fix the problem because the schools are underfunded. Only people who are altruistic would say that in most cases. And there still is no disputing the enormous sums of state money going to the inner city schools and the correlation to the high test scores versus no state money to St. James as you mentioned and the higher scores.

Are there underfunded schools in a few communities? Absolutely. Find them, make the case, and get the funds from the state or the local taxpayers. If I am working a low paying job and my kid's school needs more tax money, I vote yes and see if I can get a part time job or reduce expenses to make up for the slight increase in taxes.

Are all the schools seeking increases in excess of the rate of inflation worthy and needy? No way. Just more pigs at the trough seeking to take more money out of the efficient private sector and increase the public sector bureaucracy. Socialism didn't work in the USSR and it won't work here. Europe is about to collapse from all their "feel good" spending that the "mean" conservative people didn't want to fund. There are trade offs. The US is no longer the best place to invest your money. It has slipped from 1st to something like 11th I heard recently. That is not the right direction for a capitalist society that wants to make things better for our kids and grandkids than we had them.

I truly do agree with dissenters that we MUST provide an education for all the kids in this country to ensure we remain a strong country. We MUST. I understand that.

Please forgive me for the long winded response. I just can't stand it any more....

Well, i think dekalb schools need the money to expand. There is no way DeKalb can grow without (imo) a second high school or high school expansion.

Thats why I think the school system needs the money...and if you can do that using magic and not money...go ahead :)