I am curious about the whole issue of market size. Fans of C-USA, for example, keep arguing that they have a large advantage over the MAC in market size.

What exactly is the best way to determine market size?

If you look at it from the standpoint of states, then the MAC can pretty much hold its own with any Div. 1A conference. Currently, the MAC states are New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, and Illinois. And it looks like a 7th state might be added.

This is a very impressive list of states for determining market size.

I've seen all kinds of arguments to discount this.
"OK, but nobody in Pennsylvania or Philadelphia cares about Temple."
"Most of these states are dominated by Big Ten fans."
"The attendance at MAC games is lousy."

I believe that greater TV exposure for conferences like the MAC has significantly changed the meaning of market size. What's more important now is the region, and that is best defined by the states involved.

And there are some additional important factors. One is the on the field competitiveness of the teams. People in the MAC states will watch BG-Toledo or Miami-Iowa because they think they'll see good, competitive football. A second additional factor is marquee players such as Jacobs, Gradkowski, and Wolfe. A third additional factor is the increased scheduling of MAC teams against top programs. This enhances the perception that MAC teams belong on the same field.

So, I'm claiming that the meaning of market size may be changing, and that when you look at the new meaning, the MAC compares quite well with other Div. 1A conferences.

If you look at comments from fans of other conferences, they claim that market size is a very important factor in determining status.

I'd like to see what some of you think. Is the meaning of market size changing and where does the MAC stand?

Santa Fe Falcon Wrote:I am curious about the whole issue of market size. Fans of C-USA, for example, keep arguing that they have a large advantage over the MAC in market size.

What exactly is the best way to determine market size?

If you look at it from the standpoint of states, then the MAC can pretty much hold its own with any Div. 1A conference. Currently, the MAC states are New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, and Illinois. And it looks like a 7th state might be added.

This is a very impressive list of states for determining market size.

I've seen all kinds of arguments to discount this.
"OK, but nobody in Pennsylvania or Philadelphia cares about Temple."
"Most of these states are dominated by Big Ten fans."
"The attendance at MAC games is lousy."

I believe that greater TV exposure for conferences like the MAC has significantly changed the meaning of market size. What's more important now is the region, and that is best defined by the states involved.

And there are some additional important factors. One is the on the field competitiveness of the teams. People in the MAC states will watch BG-Toledo or Miami-Iowa because they think they'll see good, competitive football. A second additional factor is marquee players such as Jacobs, Gradkowski, and Wolfe. A third additional factor is the increased scheduling of MAC teams against top programs. This enhances the perception that MAC teams belong on the same field.

So, I'm claiming that the meaning of market size may be changing, and that when you look at the new meaning, the MAC compares quite well with other Div. 1A conferences.

If you look at comments from fans of other conferences, they claim that market size is a very important factor in determining status.

I'd like to see what some of you think. Is the meaning of market size changing and where does the MAC stand?

The problem is that 9 of the schools are in states(Michigan, Ohio) where the state number #1 team will never be from the MAC.

From posts I have read and people that I talk to, most in these states grow up as rabid fans of Michigan(maybe MSU) and Ohio State.
Many fans from these states have dual alliances, for instance MU and Ohio State.

In Illinois, New York and perhaps eastern PA the MAC teams have the potential to be the number one team.

A very good example; last year the Northern Illinois vs. Southern Illinois game drew more fans than the Northwestern vs. Illinois game. This would never happen in Ohio or Michigan.

Why is it necessary, though, to be considered the state's #1 team in order to draw serious attention and respect?

Look at Florida, Texas, California, and North Carolina. There are several teams in these states which are highly regarded and draw major media coverage.

Santa Fe Falcon Wrote:I am curious about the whole issue of market size. Fans of C-USA, for example, keep arguing that they have a large advantage over the MAC in market size.

What exactly is the best way to determine market size?

If you look at it from the standpoint of states, then the MAC can pretty much hold its own with any Div. 1A conference. Currently, the MAC states are New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, and Illinois. And it looks like a 7th state might be added.

This is a very impressive list of states for determining market size.

I've seen all kinds of arguments to discount this.
"OK, but nobody in Pennsylvania or Philadelphia cares about Temple."
"Most of these states are dominated by Big Ten fans."
"The attendance at MAC games is lousy."

That just demonstrates these people are morons. In fact, many people are morons, so it's best to get used to it.

What these folks are referring to is market share. That is a fraction of the market size.

Yes, in general the MAC's share is poor. The market size for the MAC is tremendous. That's why someone should be looking at increasing the MAC's share. That will take some strategy and some willpower. The curent situation has been entrenched for a long time.

Thing is, Conference USA teams hardly own their big, rich luxurious markets. Alabama-Birmingham, for instance, is an extreme third fiddle.

And some of those markets ain't so big. Hattiesburg, Miss., is No. 168, about two-thirds of the size of Wheeling/Steubenville.

Cue off-season message board circle jerk #56.

And give me a call in a couple of days after this one has played out by devolving -- inexorably -- into yet another UT-BUGS pissing match.

Thanks,
DG

DevilGrad Wrote:Cue off-season message board circle jerk #56.

And give me a call in a couple of days after this one has played out by devolving -- inexorably -- into yet another UT-BUGS pissing match.

Thanks,
DG

:beam:

What thread are you reading? Sheesh, I see no criticisms of Toledo or any MAC teams...

Schadenfreude Wrote:Thing is, Conference USA teams hardly own their big, rich luxurious markets. Alabama-Birmingham, for instance, is an extreme third fiddle.

And some of those markets ain't so big. Hattiesburg, Miss., is No. 168, about two-thirds of the size of Wheeling/Steubenville.

Southern Miss owns the Hattiesburg area. All the media there can be considered heavilly theirs. USM is also very well covered throughout the state of Mississippi. That can be attributed to the fact that Ole Miss and Miss. State really have no leg up on Southern Miss.

You can take Orlando for example. The market is HUGE, and there is no way UCF can come close to having a large share in this market. However, the share of the market we DO get is usually larger than most teams get. Not to mention UCF is well covered up and down the space coast as well as into other portions of the state.

The market arguments is this:

Orlando vs. Muncie
New Orleans vs. Ypsilanti
Houston vs. DeKalb
Dallas vs. Akron
El Paso vs. Kalamazoo
Memphis vs. Toledo

The Knight Time Wrote:Orlando vs. Muncie
New Orleans vs. Ypsilanti
Houston vs. DeKalb
Dallas vs. Akron
El Paso vs. Kalamazoo
Memphis vs. Toledo

Orlando vs. Indianapolis.
New Orleans vs. Detroit.
Houston vs. Chicago.
Dallas vs. Cleveland/Akron/Canton
El Paso vs. Grand Rapids
Memphis vs. Toledo

Schadenfreude Wrote:

The Knight Time Wrote:Orlando vs. Muncie
New Orleans vs. Ypsilanti
Houston vs. DeKalb
Dallas vs. Akron
El Paso vs. Kalamazoo
Memphis vs. Toledo

Orlando vs. Indianapolis.
New Orleans vs. Detroit.
Houston vs. Chicago.
Dallas vs. Cleveland/Akron/Canton
El Paso vs. Grand Rapids
Memphis vs. Toledo

Ok, what part of Indy does Ball State get?

Detroit?

Playing by those rules, I'll just say: Orlando/Tampa/Daytona/West Palm/Cocoa

Honestly....who cares? This is a completely meaningless argument since you have no way of measuring what part of each market you are capturing.

If you want to look at "hard" data, suggest you review things like TV ratings and attendance. On attendance, C-USA is better.....not sure about TV ratings.

But if anyone is arguing that C-USA or MAC teams tend to have a major part of the major cities market interest that they are in and around, (i.e. like UCF in Orlando, Tulane in NO, EMU in Detroit, KSU in Cleveland. Miami in Dayton/Cincy), then I'd say you're kidding yourself. It's all "bits and pieces" compared to the B10/ND in the midwest, and various other major conferences (SEC, ACC, B12) in the south where C-USA schools mostly reside.

The Knight Time Wrote:

Schadenfreude Wrote:

The Knight Time Wrote:Orlando vs. Muncie
New Orleans vs. Ypsilanti
Houston vs. DeKalb
Dallas vs. Akron
El Paso vs. Kalamazoo
Memphis vs. Toledo

Orlando vs. Indianapolis.
New Orleans vs. Detroit.
Houston vs. Chicago.
Dallas vs. Cleveland/Akron/Canton
El Paso vs. Grand Rapids
Memphis vs. Toledo

Ok, what part of Indy does Ball State get?

Muncie is in the Indianapolis television market.

That's just a fact.

Quote:Playing by those rules, I'll just say:  Orlando/Tampa/Daytona/West Palm/Cocoa

You misunderstand me.

The Knight Time Wrote:

Schadenfreude Wrote:Thing is, Conference USA teams hardly own their big, rich luxurious markets. Alabama-Birmingham, for instance, is an extreme third fiddle.

And some of those markets ain't so big. Hattiesburg, Miss., is No. 168, about two-thirds of the size of Wheeling/Steubenville.

Southern Miss owns the Hattiesburg area. All the media there can be considered heavilly theirs. USM is also very well covered throughout the state of Mississippi. That can be attributed to the fact that Ole Miss and Miss. State really have no leg up on Southern Miss.

You can take Orlando for example. The market is HUGE, and there is no way UCF can come close to having a large share in this market. However, the share of the market we DO get is usually larger than most teams get. Not to mention UCF is well covered up and down the space coast as well as into other portions of the state.

The market arguments is this:

Orlando vs. Muncie
New Orleans vs. Ypsilanti
Houston vs. DeKalb
Dallas vs. Akron
El Paso vs. Kalamazoo
Memphis vs. Toledo

What planet are you from?

FYI

There are more than 7 million people within a 60 mile radius of Dekalb and close to 3 million within a 30 mile radius.

NIU commands a good portion of Chicago media market and the majority of the Rockford media Market.

When NIU does well, as the have the last few years, NIU's portion of the Chicago media market is equivalent to that of NU, and close to that of ND and UofI.

I live in Chicago and I can tell you NIU gets nowhere near the coverage ND, NU, or UofI gets. I have a hard time finding the NIU scores/stories in the papers let along MAC coverage. I wish they would get more coverage, but the cold hard truth is that NIU has not opened up the Chicago market like the MAC had hoped it would when NIU first entered. NIU doesn't command anything when it comes to Chicago media.

You did touch on something earlier though BOBL that I thought was important. You wrote about the competition between the flagship state schools, but I think it is fed by us MAC fans. When I go to Kent State games I get so upset when I see people wearing OSU stuff, and especially so when we played at Ohio State a few years ago. This is just at KSU either though. Go to any Toledo game and you'll see more Michigan and Ohio State hats than Toledo. You'll never see any OSU or UofM fan wearing KSU or Toledo garb. Does this bother anyone else?

Schadenfreude Wrote:

The Knight Time Wrote:Orlando vs. Muncie
New Orleans vs. Ypsilanti
Houston vs. DeKalb
Dallas vs. Akron
El Paso vs. Kalamazoo
Memphis vs. Toledo

Orlando vs. Indianapolis.
New Orleans vs. Detroit.
Houston vs. Chicago.
Dallas vs. Cleveland/Akron/Canton
El Paso vs. Grand Rapids
Memphis vs. Toledo

I think there is a small little village near Ypsilanti called Detroit.

That is why for the second year in a row that EMU is hosting MI MAC rival game at Ford Field In Detroit.

Detroit also has a metropolitan area that is far bigger in population then Detroit itself.

As others have said,

NIU in DeKalb is also very close to the huge population center of Chicago:

BSU in Muncie is also Indy

Miami in Oxford is Cincy/Dayton

Akron/Kent State is greater Cleveland

CMU is everyone north of Lansing to the bridge. (all 46 people)

WMU is only an hour from Grand Rapids, a city quickly becoming the population and economic rival of Detroit.

Toledo is less then an hour from Detroit and not far from Cleveland's western outskirts. Plus Toledo is not a tiny town.

To me the hardest market schools would be OU, BGSU, and CMU. (Not blasting them at all, just stating surrounding population, or lack of).

It bothers me to hell. :mad:

If they like OSU so much I don't know why they don't just transfer? The fact they would chose to advertise a competing State university that sucks up the most state funding per student is irriatating to no end.

FunkmasterFlash Wrote:It bothers me to hell. :mad:

If they like OSU so much I don't know why they don't just transfer? The fact they would chose to advertise a competing State university that sucks up the most state funding per student is irriatating to no end.

And OSU is easier to get into. They should go there.
:chair:

FirstYrEagle Wrote:To me the hardest market schools would be OU, BGSU, and CMU.

Bowling Green is in the Toledo market.
Central Michigan is in the Flint/Saginaw market.

Ohio is a bit of a strange duck. Technically, it's in the Charleston/Huntington market, and it does have radio affiliates in that direction. But it's only an hour from Columbus, and the Dispatch gives 'em more coverage than any other MAC school.

The Knight Time Wrote:The market arguments is this:

I thinks this sentence are hard to follow.

Schadenfreude Wrote:

FirstYrEagle Wrote:To me the hardest market schools would be OU, BGSU, and CMU.

Central Michigan is in the Flint/Saginaw market.

I come from Detroit for games (about 2 1/2 hour drive) and have driven via Saginaw/BayCity/Midland - - but that is a long slow drive in. Geographically, it may be closer, but you can get there a lot faster from Lansing than from the tri-cities.

Flint (northern fringe of the Detroit Metro area) is not even on the radar - since you have several road changes and miles of local highway to get to Mt. Pleasant. Besides, Flint has become a Michigan State town (despite having a UofMich campus). It is not a place CMU draws a significant number of fans from. You can take the highway directly to UofMich (US23) or to MSU (I-69) and get to either of those campuses a lot faster than taking I-75 N to the tri-cities area and then driving the rural highway W to Mt. Pleasant.

Realistically, CMU doesn't draw from much other than campus, the surrounding area of Mt. Pleasant and parents/family. I'm not trying to downplay my favorite MAC school's base - but one has to be realistic.