KT, if you trade playing the MWC champ for the #7/8 B12 team, that is not a "fair trade" for C-USA by any stretch of the imagination. The neat thing about the Liberty was the champion vs. champion format. And yes, I agree with you that C-USA has supported the LB very well, so it really wouldn't be what I'd call "fair" if the LB drops C-USA like a "hot potato" when the $EC and their BCS ally the Big Least comes-a-calling.

But, I believe it's fair to say that you may have been one of the naysayers on this board about what a pitiful bowl arrangement we had with the B10 in the MCB (playing their #7 team), and I saw it posted many a time from a UCF or Herdler fan how they were excited about moving on up to a conferene with a "big time bowl" in the Liberty Bowl. So, yeah, losing that bowl would be a huge blow in my opinion, no matter how nice the Houston Bowl is.

Does it mean that the MAC all of a sudden has a better bowl situation....of course not......overall, the geography of C-USA's membership will continue to allow that league to have more bowl slots.....no argument there. The real point of the exercise (if it continues to play out this way) is that C-USA, the MAC, and the WAC are all just another non-BCS conferences in the eyes of the SEC's of the football world, and if you think otherwise you''re just kidding youself.

If you end up getting the #8 B12 team to play 'ya in Houston, you may as well send your champ to the GMAC to continue a "champions" bowl format.

exCincy Kid1 Wrote:KT, if you trade playing the MWC champ for the #7/8 B12 team, that is not a "fair trade" for C-USA by any stretch of the imagination. The neat thing about the Liberty was the champion vs. champion format. And yes, I agree with you that C-USA has supported the LB very well, so it really wouldn't be what I'd call "fair" if the LB drops C-USA like a "hot potato" when the $EC and their BCS ally the Big Least comes-a-calling.

But, I believe it's fair to say that you may have been one of the naysayers on this board about what a pitiful bowl arrangement we had with the B10 in the MCB (playing their #7 team), and I saw it posted many a time from a UCF or Herdler fan how they were excited about moving on up to a conferene with a "big time bowl" in the Liberty Bowl. So, yeah, losing that bowl would be a huge blow in my opinion, no matter how nice the Houston Bowl is.

Does it mean that the MAC all of a sudden has a better bowl situation....of course not......overall, the geography of C-USA's membership will continue to allow that league to have more bowl slots.....no argument there. The real point of the exercise (if it continues to play out this way) is that C-USA, the MAC, and the WAC are all just another non-BCS conferences in the eyes of the SEC's of the football world, and if you think otherwise you''re just kidding youself.

If you end up getting the #8 B12 team to play 'ya in Houston, you may as well send your champ to the GMAC to continue a "champions" bowl format.

Well seeing that the MWC is all but done at the LB, I'd say it pretty much elimiates the champion vs. champion format, don't you think?

If a CUSA champ plays the 6 or 7 out of the Big 12, NO it's not as good but it's certainly not bad.

Non BCS champion vs. champion days are all but over except from the NO Bowl.

Despite this, we'll still have 5 good bowl games. That's fine by me.

The Knight Time Wrote:Finally, it's not final that the SEC is moving in the LB. Memphis local supports the bowl well and wouldn't sit kindly with the SEC (Tennesees conference) barging in. The last thing Memphis fans want is their city filled with gaudy orange from Knoxville.

No offense KT, but if the Liberty Bowl gets the SEC they don't need the Memphis locals to support the bowl.......it will sellout with SEC fans. That almost means more hotel space being used and probably more revenue for restaurants in the area near the stadium.

The epicenter of C-USA continues to move west and south, both based on the concentration of members, and its bowl games. That is not all by design of course, since I sincerely doubt the C-USA "powers to be" want to lose the LB (who can blame them?). It continues to cast ECU and Marshall to be far on the fringes from a geographic perspective, which I know bothers ECU but may eventually be a downer to Herd fans and administrators as well. I'm not sure where else ECU can realistically go (conference wise), and based on academics I think the talk of ECU to the ACC is just plain silly......they could be a future candidate for the Big East if the hoops only schools break off and they expand to 12 football playing schools. In that case I could see an consideration of Memphis, Marshall, ECU, UCF and of course a couple of MAC schools.

rocketfootball Wrote:

The Knight Time Wrote:Finally, it's not final that the SEC is moving in the LB.  Memphis local supports the bowl well and wouldn't sit kindly with the SEC (Tennesees conference) barging in.  The last thing Memphis fans want is their city filled with gaudy orange from Knoxville.

No offense KT, but if the Liberty Bowl gets the SEC they don't need the Memphis locals to support the bowl.......it will sellout with SEC fans. That almost means more hotel space being used and probably more revenue for restaurants in the area near the stadium.

RF: Exactly. Sometimes folks here tend to overanalyze and factor emotion too heavily into the equation. Sure, the locals support the LB. But they'll support (maybe not as heavily) a bowl game with an SEC team. Financially, as you point out, it would likely be a windfall.

These decisions are made with spreadsheets, not with gut instincts.

rocketfootball Wrote:

The Knight Time Wrote:Finally, it's not final that the SEC is moving in the LB.  Memphis local supports the bowl well and wouldn't sit kindly with the SEC (Tennesees conference) barging in.  The last thing Memphis fans want is their city filled with gaudy orange from Knoxville.

No offense KT, but if the Liberty Bowl gets the SEC they don't need the Memphis locals to support the bowl.......it will sellout with SEC fans. That almost means more hotel space being used and probably more revenue for restaurants in the area near the stadium.

That is not necessarily true. If a team like Ole Miss or Miss. State gets invited, most of their fans will likely drive to Memphis the morning of the game and drive home shortly thereafter. There were complaints by hotel owners of that very situation during the early 90s when Ole Miss and Miss. State were routinely invited to play Air Force. Also, if a team like LSU or Auburn is expected to have a great year but tanks and instead finishes 6-5 or 7-4 then the fans will not be too excited. There was a LB involving LSU during the 80s with only 25,000 in attendance. Conversely, an SEC team suffering from a two or three year bowl drought will travel very well.

MichiganTiger Wrote:

rocketfootball Wrote:

The Knight Time Wrote:Finally, it's not final that the SEC is moving in the LB.  Memphis local supports the bowl well and wouldn't sit kindly with the SEC (Tennesees conference) barging in.  The last thing Memphis fans want is their city filled with gaudy orange from Knoxville.

No offense KT, but if the Liberty Bowl gets the SEC they don't need the Memphis locals to support the bowl.......it will sellout with SEC fans. That almost means more hotel space being used and probably more revenue for restaurants in the area near the stadium.

That is not necessarily true. If a team like Ole Miss or Miss. State gets invited, most of their fans will likely drive to Memphis the morning of the game and drive home shortly thereafter. There were complaints by hotel owners of that very situation during the early 90s when Ole Miss and Miss. State were routinely invited to play Air Force. Also, if a team like LSU or Auburn is expected to have a great year but tanks and instead finishes 6-5 or 7-4 then the fans will not be too excited. There was a LB involving LSU during the 80s with only 25,000 in attendance. Conversely, an SEC team suffering from a two or three year bowl drought will travel very well.

I guarantee you they would rather take that chance when you consider how likely it is that one of those two will play in the bowl game very much. And even if they do, that is no different than what they are probably looking at now since the MWC doesn't bring any fans and the locals have to support the bowl to make it a good attendance game. The years another SEC school comes in far outweighs what you mention.

rocketfootball Wrote:

MichiganTiger Wrote:

rocketfootball Wrote:

The Knight Time Wrote:Finally, it's not final that the SEC is moving in the LB.  Memphis local supports the bowl well and wouldn't sit kindly with the SEC (Tennesees conference) barging in.  The last thing Memphis fans want is their city filled with gaudy orange from Knoxville.

No offense KT, but if the Liberty Bowl gets the SEC they don't need the Memphis locals to support the bowl.......it will sellout with SEC fans. That almost means more hotel space being used and probably more revenue for restaurants in the area near the stadium.

That is not necessarily true. If a team like Ole Miss or Miss. State gets invited, most of their fans will likely drive to Memphis the morning of the game and drive home shortly thereafter. There were complaints by hotel owners of that very situation during the early 90s when Ole Miss and Miss. State were routinely invited to play Air Force. Also, if a team like LSU or Auburn is expected to have a great year but tanks and instead finishes 6-5 or 7-4 then the fans will not be too excited. There was a LB involving LSU during the 80s with only 25,000 in attendance. Conversely, an SEC team suffering from a two or three year bowl drought will travel very well.

I guarantee you they would rather take that chance when you consider how likely it is that one of those two will play in the bowl game very much. And even if they do, that is no different than what they are probably looking at now since the MWC doesn't bring any fans and the locals have to support the bowl to make it a good attendance game. The years another SEC school comes in far outweighs what you mention.

Oh I agree with you mostly; an SEC tie-in will lead to better attendance most years. I'm just pointing out that the SEC deal isn't a guaranteed sell-out every year. Heck, even the local support isn't guaranteed. There was talk of the Liberty Bowl losing its ceritfication during the last 80s and early 90s because local ticket sales fell sharply.

MichiganTiger Wrote:

rocketfootball Wrote:

MichiganTiger Wrote:

rocketfootball Wrote:

The Knight Time Wrote:Finally, it's not final that the SEC is moving in the LB.  Memphis local supports the bowl well and wouldn't sit kindly with the SEC (Tennesees conference) barging in.  The last thing Memphis fans want is their city filled with gaudy orange from Knoxville.

No offense KT, but if the Liberty Bowl gets the SEC they don't need the Memphis locals to support the bowl.......it will sellout with SEC fans. That almost means more hotel space being used and probably more revenue for restaurants in the area near the stadium.

That is not necessarily true. If a team like Ole Miss or Miss. State gets invited, most of their fans will likely drive to Memphis the morning of the game and drive home shortly thereafter. There were complaints by hotel owners of that very situation during the early 90s when Ole Miss and Miss. State were routinely invited to play Air Force. Also, if a team like LSU or Auburn is expected to have a great year but tanks and instead finishes 6-5 or 7-4 then the fans will not be too excited. There was a LB involving LSU during the 80s with only 25,000 in attendance. Conversely, an SEC team suffering from a two or three year bowl drought will travel very well.

I guarantee you they would rather take that chance when you consider how likely it is that one of those two will play in the bowl game very much. And even if they do, that is no different than what they are probably looking at now since the MWC doesn't bring any fans and the locals have to support the bowl to make it a good attendance game. The years another SEC school comes in far outweighs what you mention.

Oh I agree with you mostly; an SEC tie-in will lead to better attendance most years. I'm just pointing out that the SEC deal isn't a guaranteed sell-out every year. Heck, even the local support isn't guaranteed. There was talk of the Liberty Bowl losing its ceritfication during the last 80s and early 90s because local ticket sales fell sharply.

If I understand what you are saying, that Ole Miss and Miss State fans will not be in force to sell out the Liberty bowl.......then they have no business being in the SEC.

Despite their visions of grandeur, C-USA is "just another" non-BCS conference......they have a lot of schools down south, and therefore will always have some bowls, though.

bronco67 Wrote:

Vandelay Wrote:I have no sympathy for CUSA.  They seem to think that they are on the "in" to be the next BCS (old distinction) league which is clearly not the case.  In fact, the main reason that the Big East maintains for old "BCS" ties is to keep the 'majority rule' in the BCS favor.  With the Big East "in" the old guard of BCS schools leading 64 to 55 over non-BCS schools.  If the Big East lost their distinction, then the non-BCS schools would have a 63-56 advantage, thus more leverage to push for changes. 

CUSA can make bowl and scheduling agreements with the MAC, Mt West, WAC or Sun Belt but they choose not too.  What you see is CUSA getting treated just like all non-BCS leagues, which is like crap.  Even after Utah had their stellar season in 2004 and the first players drafted in both NFL and NBA drafts, they receive little to no national respect from the nation's so-called 'elite.' 

Expect more and more seven and eight team BCS alignments for almost every bowl along with even more 'at-large' basketball entries in the NCAA tourney to go to the former BCS clowns while CUSA and all other non-factors fight for one, two, or at most, three bids.  Sad but true people.

Quote:If the Big East lost their distinction, then the non-BCS schools would have a 63-56 advantage, thus more leverage to push for changes.

You claim to know something about NCAA voting? Exactly where did you get the idea that it’s a "one school one vote" situation? The MAC and other non-BCS conferences do not get one vote for each school. :rolleyes:

Actually, there is some truth to what Vandelay was saying.

Its not predicated on the number of schools in the BCS, but it has to do more with how many Division 1-A conferences are represented by the BCS. And its crucial for the BCS to have at least the majority of the conferences (6 out of 11) in the system.

Quote: If I understand what you are saying, that Ole Miss and Miss State fans will not be in force to sell out the Liberty bowl.......then they have no business being in the SEC.

More often than not, the Liberty Bowls with Ole Miss and State are near sellouts, but usually their fans drive back the same day and don't spend a lot of money in the city. However, Ole Miss and State won't be the SEC rep every year, and some of the other SEC teams have a poor track record in the LB.

exCincy Kid1 Wrote:I'm not sure where else ECU can realistically go (conference wise), and based on academics I think the talk of ECU to the ACC is just plain silly......they could be a future candidate for the Big East if the hoops only schools break off and they expand to 12 football playing schools. In that case I could see an consideration of Memphis, Marshall, ECU, UCF and of course a couple of MAC schools.

East Carolina is probably the top candidate for the Big East. They have a big, traveling fan base and are willing to accept a football only membership. They add Carolina recruiting to the Big East.

Marshall doesn't bring enough of a recruiting base with them to make themselves valuable. That and WVU has a foothold in the Charleston market.

UCF would be a better selection, but South Florida could block their admission. This is not certain though.

Memphis doesn't have a very good tradition in football, and I think that will hurt their chances to go with geographical issues.

I doubt MAC schools would be considered for the Big East. Syracuse would block Buffalo. Cincinnati would block Ohio schools. The Michigan schools have no chance and neither does Ball State. NIU has some attractiveness, but is kind of far from Louisville and Cincinnati, plus Notre Dame wouldn't want them if they were still affiliated with the conference.

The Big East is not going to 12 schools, at most 9 or 10, and most likely ECU and/or UCF. On the very outside chance they expand to 12 for football, Army and Navy will be the 11th and 12th teams.

Kit-Cat Wrote:

exCincy Kid1 Wrote:I'm not sure where else  ECU can realistically go (conference wise), and based on academics I think the talk of ECU to the ACC is just plain silly......they could be a future candidate for the Big East if the hoops only schools break off and they expand to 12 football playing schools.  In that case I could see an consideration of Memphis, Marshall, ECU, UCF and of course a couple of MAC schools.

East Carolina is probably the top candidate for the Big East. They have a big, traveling fan base and are willing to accept a football only membership. They add Carolina recruiting to the Big East.

ECU doesn't have the academics for the current BE. Maybe if the fball splinters off, but even that's a big uncertainty.

Memphis has the inside track, but there are travel issues involved there.

UCF makes much sense in my mind, but it doesn't add another state. OTOH, it's not clear that ECU really does either.

Here's a kooky thought... perhaps the new Big East might want to, oh, I don't know, play a season or two under its new configuration before they worry about adding members to a league that already has 16 of them.

Quote:The Big East is not going to 12 schools, at most 9 or 10, and most likely ECU and/or UCF. On the very outside chance they expand to 12 for football, Army and Navy will be the 11th and 12th teams.

Oh, really... and you know this... uh, how, exactly? From your fellow wishful-thinking fans on the outside of that league?

Give up the mental masturbation already. The shift has occurred. Another one is not forthcoming for a long, long time....

Kit-Cat Wrote:East Carolina is probably the top candidate for the Big East.

I think it's Central Florida. It works out some scheduling issues.

Quote:WVU has a foothold in the Charleston market.

West Virginia is in the driver's seat in the Charleston market.

Quote:Memphis doesn't have a very good tradition in football, and I think that will hurt their chances to go with geographical issues.

But they do help in basketball, which would be a consideration if the football schools ever leave the league.

Quote:I doubt MAC schools would be considered for the Big East.

Agreed.

Quote:On the very outside chance they expand to 12 for football, Army and Navy will be the 11th and 12th teams.

I seriously doubt Army or Navy would want any part of the Big East. The league, weakened as it is, would still render them carnage.

Schadenfreude Wrote:I seriously doubt Army or Navy would want any part of the Big East. The league, weakened as it is, would still render them carnage.

What a great phrase!

Schadenfreude Wrote:

Quote:On the very outside chance they expand to 12 for football, Army and Navy will be the 11th and 12th teams.

I seriously doubt Army or Navy would want any part of the Big East. The league, weakened as it is, would still render them carnage.

Navy won 10 games last year, including this rout:

Navy 54- Rutgers (NJ) 21

I doubt they fear the BE. A bigger concern might be the flexibility of a schedule. They play Army, Air Force and ND each year. Even w/ a 12 game schedule, that doesn't leave much flexibility.

DrTorch Wrote:

Schadenfreude Wrote:

Quote:On the very outside chance they expand to 12 for football, Army and Navy will be the 11th and 12th teams.

I seriously doubt Army or Navy would want any part of the Big East. The league, weakened as it is, would still render them carnage.

Navy won 10 games last year, including this rout:

Navy 54- Rutgers (NJ) 21

I doubt they fear the BE. A bigger concern might be the flexibility of a schedule. They play Army, Air Force and ND each year. Even w/ a 12 game schedule, that doesn't leave much flexibility.

Well, it remains to be seen if Navy's good luck has any legs. And if you look at them in all sports, well, you tend to look elsewhere.

Papa Lou BSU Wrote:Here's a kooky thought... perhaps the new Big East might want to, oh, I don't know, play a season or two under its new configuration before they worry about adding members to a league that already has 16 of them.

Quote:The Big East is not going to 12 schools, at most 9 or 10, and most likely ECU and/or UCF. On the very outside chance they expand to 12 for football, Army and Navy will be the 11th and 12th teams.

Oh, really... and you know this... uh, how, exactly? From your fellow wishful-thinking fans on the outside of that league?

Give up the mental masturbation already. The shift has occurred. Another one is not forthcoming for a long, long time....

Looking back at history Papa, the last big shift occurred in 1992 when Arkansas made a move from the old SWC to the SEC. This eventually led to the formation of the Big XII, WAC-16, and the MWC split.

The recent shift officially started in 2004, 12 years after the last one. Most MAC presidents think the next shift is going to occur by 2010. Another major shift may not be in 5 years, but its not unreasonable to envision something again happening 10-15 years down the road.

The commissioner of the Big East has said they have no interest in expanding unless they can find someone to make themselves better. Therefore, its very unlikely they would split the football schools and expand to 12 all sports members, taking basketball liabilities such as Marshall or Southern Miss. It would make more sense to just add 1 or 2 members like ECU and UCF for 10 in basketball and then tack on Army/Navy for the championship game.

Thinking about potential alignments is a worthwhile exercise for fans of any Division 1-A school because you have to know what direction things are moving in to make a determination on where you want your program to go.