This may be the single most perfect example of how growing up with a single doctrinal mistake can harden people into stone from just reading and accepting the plain words and teaching of Jesus. If you grew up in a church that teaches salvation does not happen until water baptism, then there is a 90% chance you will TOTALLY REFUSE Jesus words on this. And I was one of those people who grew up in such a church as a child, but once I began to read the Bible for myself and actually became a genuine born again Christian I realized my and certain denominations error on this passage in John 3:

Quote:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (#1) and of the Spirit (#2), he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh #1; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. #2

Nicodemus asked Jesus how can this be, people being born a SECOND TIME? Jesus answers very directly and very specifically.

2 births you must have.......the first is a "water" birth (the birth into the flesh). Your flesh is 70% water, you are born into a sack of water in the womb, when you are about to be born what happens? You mothers water breaks and spills out everywhere.

The SECOND BIRTH is a spiritual birth. Already born once into the flesh, at the moment of conversion and salvation you are "born again" in the spirit.

2 births, one of the water (flesh) and one of the Spirit.

Its as plain and simple as 1+1=2.

There are multiple denominations that will teach John 3:5 as "born of water" = water baptism. And this "born of water" (water baptism) is the spiritual birth.

But Jesus very purposefully and very clearly draws a DISTINCTION between TWO DIFFERENT BIRTHS in John 3:5-6, one of the water (flesh) and one of the spirit.

Jesus does NOT say they are one in the same, He instead goes out of His way to make clear these are TWO SEPARATE BIRTHS. And then clarified even further in verse 6:


"That which is born of the FLESH is FLESH, that which is born of the SPIRIT is SPIRIT."


There are lot of very good born again Christians who make this mistake and they make it because they were taught this in their denomination at an early age.

And because it was taught to them at such a young age they will DIE (figuratively) on this hill and just flat out refuse to accept Jesus actual words on this. Mostly because it feels like an attack on their beloved church or preacher/deacon/ect they grew up with and have tremendous and well deserved respect for. And because they have been taught this literally their whole lives they are just not open to correction on this at all.

But we all should be willing to test the things we are taught against the scriptures themselves, because even great Christian men and teachers are imperfect and flawed just like you and me.

Its does not diminish or tear down those wonderful men of God you grew up with or were taught by.

Consider how many times Peter and the other Apostles themselves were in error in the NT and had to course correct and stand on sound doctrine once they had corrected their error.

This is why the Berens were called "more noble" than others because they searched the scriptures daily to make sure the things they were taught by the disciples were indeed scriptural. They did not blindly follow, they tested those things against scripture to see if they were so.

Learning, correcting and growing in the word and doctrine is just a natural part of picking up your cross and following Jesus.

This is NOT to say Christians should not be water baptized, that is NOT the point here and NOT what I am saying at all. So lets be clear......

ALL Christians should be water baptized.

But the point here is water baptism is NOT the point or subject of John 3:5-6 at all. It literally has nothing at all to do with this passage. This passage is about being "born again" and the TWO DISTINCT BIRTHS that happen, the first of being born into the flesh, the second being born into the Spirit.

Two distinct births
Two distinct events

That is specifically and contextually what Nicodemus asked about and what Jesus responded with. Just logically here using common sense, what is the point of teaching you need these 2 separate things if they both happen simultaneously when you are water baptized? If that was the case why not just teach it as what happens when you are water baptized instead of Jesus going out of his way to say they are 2 separate things you need for salvation?


Obviously the SECOND Birth, the spiritual birth is the point Jesus is trying to get across here. But since Nicodemus was confused and thinking of a a fleshly birth, Jesus draws the distinction here for Him in a way that puts the focus on the spiritual birth (born from above) and for Nicodemus to not confuse this with a natural birth of the flesh.

He is teaching this is something separate, something NEW and ETERNAL, something of God and from Heaven.




This is a perfect example of a doctrine mistake that has to be taught, because no new Christian who did not grow up in a church teaching this common error would read this passage and think the water birth is the spiritual birth. The entire point of the passage is Jesus drawing a DISTINCTION between these two separate births. One of the flesh (water) and one of the Spirit.

I believe this also illustrates and aligns with the fact that that those who die before they are born (aborted babies, still births, etc) do not have eternal salvation yet, though they are with God right now. How can they already have eternal salvation if they never had to choose Jesus over Satan by their own free will? They have to make that choice just like we did and since they were robbed of their chance I suspect this is one of the reasons for the coming Millennial Kingdom and Satan being released at the end of it to test those still in the flesh on earth. Those of us already in glorified bodies cannot be tempted by Satan anymore.

There will be 2 types of people in the Millennial Kingdom. Those already in their glorified eternal bodies (the OT and NT saints, the Bride of Christ), and those still in the flesh. Those in the flesh will be those born in 1000 year kingdom. They never had to choose between Jesus and Satan, that choice comes at the end when Satan is finally released one last time. They will live 1000 years in Jesus' Kingdom, then Satan will be allowed to tempt them to turn from Jesus and join him in rebellion at the very end when he is released. And apparently many will.

Scripture does not tell us flat out those who died before they were born or came of age will live that out in the 1000 years, but its a really obvious conclusion we can draw from the whole of scripture.

They have to make a free will choice and reject Satan's rebellion just like the rest of us did. They just don't get to make it until the the end of the 1000 years.

If anyone is reading that last part and totally confused its ok and understandable.

This is a very deep theological issue and really just for those who spend a lot of time in scripture on deeper theological issues.

As long as you have the Gospel and genuinely walk and live by that faith you already have what you need for salvation.

There are some people God calls to dive into the deep end on theology, doctrine and scripture and other people God calls for other specific works He needs of you.

We all work together in our callings to form the whole body of Christ and His Kingdom.

God Bless all of you!

(08-30-2026 01:47 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  This is NOT to say Christians should not be water baptized, that is NOT the point here and NOT what I am saying at all. So lets be clear......

ALL Christians should be water baptized.

But the point here is water baptism is NOT the point or subject of John 3:5-6 at all. It literally has nothing at all to do with this passage. This passage is about being "born again" and the TWO DISTINCT BIRTHS that happen, the first of being born into the flesh, the second being born into the Spirit.

Two distinct births
Two distinct events

That is specifically and contextually what Nicodemus asked about and what Jesus responded with. Just logically here using common sense, what is the point of teaching you need these 2 separate things if they both happen simultaneously when you are water baptized? If that was the case why not just teach it as what happens when you are water baptized instead of Jesus going out of his way to say they are 2 separate things you need for salvation?


Obviously the SECOND Birth, the spiritual birth is the point Jesus is trying to get across here. But since Nicodemus was confused and thinking of a a fleshly birth, Jesus draws the distinction here for Him in a way that puts the focus on the spiritual birth (born from above) and for Nicodemus to not confuse this with a natural birth of the flesh.

He is teaching this is something separate, something NEW and ETERNAL, something of God and from Heaven.




This is a perfect example of a doctrine mistake that has to be taught, because no new Christian who did not grow up in a church teaching this common error would read this passage and think the water birth is the spiritual birth. The entire point of the passage is Jesus drawing a DISTINCTION between these two separate births. One of the flesh (water) and one of the Spirit.

Thanks for clarifying that baptism by water is a valid and valuable practice. I was getting ready to ask that before I saw this. As Catholics, we are taught that the path to heaven is not possible without being baptized; that's the first and most essential step. In the Catholic faith, baptism is a requirement.

Whether you're aware of it or not, you have been inspirational and influential in my journey towards salvation. Because of your interest in the salvation of my soul, I am now seeking Biblical knowledge and understanding in earnest. I pray at least twice a day; in the morning, as soon as my feet touch the ground, I go to my knees, and again in the evening, right before I lie down in bed, and usually throughout the day as well. I read my bible daily and have begun to notice subtle differences in how I interact with others; my empathy levels, along with my tolerance of others, have increased. I still have a long way to go, though.

I won't claim to understand much of what is going on in the world spiritually, but I do know, deep in my heart, that there is only one way, one way to live, one way to treat others as I would be treated, and one way to my salvation. Jesus IS the way.

I pray for understanding and signs that I am serving a purpose in this life other than to please myself. I remain unclear as to what I am called to do specifically. But maybe just living my life while in some small way serving others in ways barely noticeable is my purpose.

I admit it does get confusing.

Thanks again, brother.

(10-25-2026 06:31 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  If anyone is reading that last part and totally confused its ok and understandable.

This is a very deep theological issue and really just for those who spend a lot of time in scripture on deeper theological issues.

As long as you have the Gospel and genuinely walk and live by that faith you already have what you need for salvation.

There are some people God calls to dive into the deep end on theology, doctrine and scripture and other people God calls for other specific works He needs of you.

We all work together in our callings to form the whole body of Christ and His Kingdom.

God Bless all of you!

I should have kept reading as you answered my question above and cleared up a small bit of my confusion.

Thanks for the kind words, Brother.

Some people might ask, Eric if you are right then why would Jesus make the point about being born into the flesh at all, isn't that redundant? Obviously if you are reading that verse then clearly you have been born into the flesh. Right?

Yes but your forgetting just how many people died in childbirth or before for thousands of years. ITS A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF PEOPLE. One of the reasons people tried to have so many kids until modern times is most of their children died in or before childbirth, or died as small children from disease. Its only in recent decades that most babies and children survive childbirth and childhood and grow into adults.

So there are not only millions but maybe even BILLIONS of people who died before they ever came of age, most when they were toddlers or in childbirth.

So now when you consider that context (Jesus making the point of needing to be born into the flesh first) now it makes a lot more sense. You have to be born into the flesh and then later when you come of age willingly choose Christ and be born into the Spirit.

So it makes all the sense in the world that God is likely using the Millennial Kingdom for these people who never made it to the age of reason and choice to live out a fleshly life in the Millennial Kingdom, then at the end make the same choice we all made of rejecting Satans temptation and choosing Christ just like all of us have. The whole point of the Gospel and Christ death on the cross is for us to willing CHOOSE Jesus over Satan.

God does not want robots, He wants people made in His image who willingly choose to live with Him and be with Him. Everyone has to make that free will choice, and that includes all those people who did not get the chance in this world but apparently are given it in the coming Millennial Kingdom.

Again this is not specifically stated in the text (there are a lot of WHY??? things not laid out directly in scripture), but it does align with Gods character and plan of salvation for all mankind. No one gets a free pass, we all have to choose it. And the question is why even have a 1000 year reign and why put so much focus on it in scripture? And this is a really obvious answer to that that perfectly aligns with the whole Bible. Its not the only reason for a Millennial Kingdom period, but it is likely one of big ones.

So don't look at this as doctrine so much as just proper theological reasoning.

And again if this last part makes your brain explode, its ok and totally understandable.

This is extremely deep theology and may not be for a lot of people.

God has a plan and calling for everyone, and diving this deep into theology is not His plan for all of us. HE has other plans and callings for people that are just as important.

Just finding ours and following it is what we want to do. And if you are following this or this topic opens a door of scriptural theology in your heart and mind then AMEN!