(11-21-2025 10:57 AM)shere khan Wrote:  

(11-21-2025 10:23 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(11-21-2025 10:19 AM)olliebaba Wrote:  I think it's a good deal. Ukraine isn't gonna get any more land back and they'll be lucky they retain their sovereignty.

But...with matters concerning Russia, we can only hope that they honor the treaty...but what else can be done? We have to hope that at least no more people on both sides get killed and that's a great thing for both parties. No one wants their children and husbands fighting and dying. No treaty can give everything the other wants, this one is viable.

Everyone here has been saying that the only way this war would end would be for Ukraine to give up the territory Russia has gained and that's what has happened. I knew that and I'm just a commoner.

Maybe those Eunuchs in Europe better come up with a plan.

We all know how trustworthy Russians are. Not even up for debate

Yeah and Ukrainians are Russians FFS.

Slavs can fight slavs till the end of time for all i care.

I do not want to pay for it with our treasure or blood.

Its not complicated.

Some slavs don’t want to be ruled by a tyrant slav. Enough it seems to die for their freedom.
Wake up Rip. It’s years past that. We no longer give them money and have urged them to surrender and give us half their natural resources. So calm yourself and take a Midol.

With time for peeps to absorb the details of the 28 points, almost everybody with an opinion is saying this is a very bad deal for Ukraine.

I think what happened is Trump wants this war to end, period, and the only way to do that is to give Russia the minimum they will accept, which is something the Ukranians would never agree to.

I think the worst thing is Ukraine ceding the land that they have fortified. Russia never ever keeps its word, and you know they will roll right over that "neutral zone" when the time is right. Likely with another Biden type in office.

(11-21-2025 12:32 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(11-21-2025 03:33 AM)TripleA Wrote:  Okay, I haven't read every word yet, but unless Ukraine somehow thinks they can recover all their territory, I don't see the issue. Trump's strategy is to stop the killing.

Looks like Russia gets the occupied territory plus the disputed part, and Ukraine gets a full security guarantee from the US, which it has not had before.

If Russia invades Ukraine again, all agreements are off, and the US will back Ukraine.

How is this a bad deal for Ukraine? They get to keep most of their country, and have security guarantees from the US. And most of all, the war is stopped.

Its a bad deal because the fortress like multi-layered prepared defense lines in the Luhansk and Donesk area's that have stymied the Russian advance since 2014 would be given up---meaning Ukraine would become MUCH more vulnerable to successful future breakthrough Russian attacks. Also---the details of the security "guarantees" (which are not clearly defined in the overview posted) would have to be darn near NATO Article 5 level guarantees to make it worth giving up their prepared fortress defense line while slashing their military size to the degree proposed.

That said---to me---I dont think its so far from being viable that it cant become the basis for a deal. I still think the most easily implemented deal is a freeze along the existing lines (Russia gets the land they have taken) and Ukraine gets robust near NATO Article 5 security guarantees (with the US and at least one other nuclear power being among the guarantors). Remember---both sides dont trust each other, so asking one side to cut its military and pull back from its best prepared defensive positions----without any other nations troops on site acting as buffer to deter further Russian advances is a lot to ask. That said---I dont think the 28 point deal is all that far from being acceptable---it just needs more detail---especially when it comes to the security guarantees.

This plan calls for Ukraine to pull back from carefully prepared killing zones es they built while holding Russia at bay in Pokrovsk. I have seen estimates from several experts that it would take Russia at least two years and another million casualties to advance past these defenses. Meanwhile Ukraine builds a million FPV drones to deal with the attempt to conquer this ground.

Another thing is that the Russian military has a lot more soldiers. The soldiers they are using in Ukraine are being guaranteed huge signing bonuses to go get killed and maimed on the front lines. Those willing to do that are dwindling in numbers. They also have a huge border and not all of their neighbors don’t love them. So they can’t use all of their soldiers in Ukraine. This brings up mobilization. Putin hasn’t done that yet for fear of an uprising. It is being discussed now. Another sign Ukraine is indeed putting pressure on Putin.
Another problem for Russia is they are running almost completely out of armor and don’t have the funds to build enough quickly.

Putin has already purged many in his inner circle for fear of being removed from power. The latest missing is his right hand man for 40 years
Sergey Lavrov. You know, the guy Hilliar asked to push the red reset button. Where is he? No mention of him from Putin or the Russian media.

You know that the alternative is actually a worse deal for Ukraine, right?

2 more years of killing another generation off and ending up with Russian troops in Kiev.

Those are the two choices.

(11-21-2025 06:28 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  You know that the alternative is actually a worse deal for Ukraine, right?

2 more years of killing another generation off and ending up with Russian troops in Kiev.

Those are the two choices.

Z lovers are delusional at this point.

Look at the title of the thread. Crazy

(11-21-2025 12:57 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(11-21-2025 12:43 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  

(11-21-2025 10:45 AM)olliebaba Wrote:  In the peace deal it states that Ukraine can only have 600k in their standing Army, there's no stipulation where they can't have a national guard. Like Israel, Ukraine can go that route.

600,000 is about what the U.S. has worldwide for active duty Army and Marine corps...combined.

And if its army was 100% armed with modern weapons, had nukes, a big navy, had a huge arsenal of modern accurate long range cruise missiles, and was backed the worlds most powerful air force---that would be more than enough troops to deter Russia. Their army has over 600K right now and Russia doesnt seem deterred---so cutting the size seems counterproductive.

That said---if we intend to sell them all the arms needed turn them into a porcupine-bristling with long range ballistic and cruise missiles along with a powerful modern air force capable of controlling the skies----maybe 600K well armed troops might be enough to work as a deterrent. Its all about the details.

Why is Ukraine being forced to downsize its military? Did they invade Russia? They are the victims here. Absolutely freakin ridiculous. Who came up with this crock of chit. This is going to destroy Trump’s foreign policy legacy. Should have just ignored the whole thing.

And read #3 slowly. It is a joke.

Ukraine is the victim?

(11-21-2025 06:44 PM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  Ukraine is the victim?

Well yeah. But that doesn't matter now. It's playground rules...bigger kid is taking the lunch money...fought back to keep them from taking it forever. Took your swings and it didn't pan out. Keep it to just a black eye and a bloody nose because it gets worse.

(11-21-2025 01:57 PM)CrimsonPhantom Wrote:  Moscow’s Forces Conquer Northern Logistics Hub of Kupyansk – Russia Says Ukraine Has Lost 1,7 Million Troops in the War (VIDEOS)

Quote:Military Affairs reported:

“Russia’s takeover of Kupyansk, described by experts as a major blow to Ukraine’s command and defenses, exposes the gap between official claims and the situation on the ground.”

Russian military analyst Andrey Marochko told RIA Novosti that the loss of Kupyansk will deal a double blow to Ukraine’s command structure — damaging its reputation and destabilizing the entire defensive line in this sector.

He stressed that for Kiev, the fall of Kupyansk is a painful setback. The city served as a pivotal hub, crucial both for logistics and for maintaining the front.”

It seems this is more Russian propaganda. Kiev and other sources say Ukraine has complete control of Kupyansnk.
Just as I read this I see the top Russian general, Valery Gerasimov, is gone. Missing. And Putin has started arresting his staff. It’s a chit show in Russia. Does this look like a country not falling apart?

There's no doubt that Trump just wants the killing stopped, and he's not interested in ensuring a level deal. Russia won't stop until they get what they want.

And we all know that sometime later, they will move ahead again.

(11-21-2025 07:04 PM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  

(11-21-2025 01:57 PM)CrimsonPhantom Wrote:  Moscow’s Forces Conquer Northern Logistics Hub of Kupyansk – Russia Says Ukraine Has Lost 1,7 Million Troops in the War (VIDEOS)

Quote:Military Affairs reported:

“Russia’s takeover of Kupyansk, described by experts as a major blow to Ukraine’s command and defenses, exposes the gap between official claims and the situation on the ground.”

Russian military analyst Andrey Marochko told RIA Novosti that the loss of Kupyansk will deal a double blow to Ukraine’s command structure — damaging its reputation and destabilizing the entire defensive line in this sector.

He stressed that for Kiev, the fall of Kupyansk is a painful setback. The city served as a pivotal hub, crucial both for logistics and for maintaining the front.”

It seems this is more Russian propaganda. Kiev and other sources say Ukraine has complete control of Kupyansnk.
Just as I read this I see the top Russian general, Valery Gerasimov, is gone. Missing. And Putin has started arresting his staff. It’s a chit show in Russia. Does this look like a country not falling apart?

With all due respect, I still don't understand why this subject gets you so revved up. Most of us are indifferent. We realize Ukraine is the victim here, but it doesn't seem like our fight.

And in my case, Ukraine was a Soviet satellite for much of my life.

(11-21-2025 07:01 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  

(11-21-2025 06:44 PM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  Ukraine is the victim?

Well yeah. But that doesn't matter now. It's playground rules...bigger kid is taking the lunch money...fought back to keep them from taking it forever. Took your swings and it didn't pan out. Keep it to just a black eye and a bloody nose because it gets worse.

So is Russia winning? Why would not Ukraine continue to fight if they are willing to do so?

Sometimes the bully on the playground meets Slim.

By the way, Putin just rejected the plan because Trump would get credit for being the top authority. So on with the battle.

(11-21-2025 07:09 PM)TripleA Wrote:  

(11-21-2025 07:04 PM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  

(11-21-2025 01:57 PM)CrimsonPhantom Wrote:  Moscow’s Forces Conquer Northern Logistics Hub of Kupyansk – Russia Says Ukraine Has Lost 1,7 Million Troops in the War (VIDEOS)

Quote:Military Affairs reported:

“Russia’s takeover of Kupyansk, described by experts as a major blow to Ukraine’s command and defenses, exposes the gap between official claims and the situation on the ground.”

Russian military analyst Andrey Marochko told RIA Novosti that the loss of Kupyansk will deal a double blow to Ukraine’s command structure — damaging its reputation and destabilizing the entire defensive line in this sector.

He stressed that for Kiev, the fall of Kupyansk is a painful setback. The city served as a pivotal hub, crucial both for logistics and for maintaining the front.”

It seems this is more Russian propaganda. Kiev and other sources say Ukraine has complete control of Kupyansnk.
Just as I read this I see the top Russian general, Valery Gerasimov, is gone. Missing. And Putin has started arresting his staff. It’s a chit show in Russia. Does this look like a country not falling apart?

With all due respect, I still don't understand why this subject gets you so revved up. Most of us are indifferent. We realize Ukraine is the victim here, but it doesn't seem like our fight.

And in my case, Ukraine was a Soviet satellite for much of my life.

I don’t know. What do you get interested in. Maybe I don’t give a chit about what interests you. This is a message board man. It’s for discussing and debating chit. If you’re not interested, and I have said this to you several times, don’t read it. It’s really that simple instead of asking me every time I post something about it. I know you have plenty of time for reading and posting. And I know you are an interesting guy. But if you don’t care about this just don’t read my stuff. Otherwise I respect and agree with most all of your contributions here.

(11-21-2025 07:09 PM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  

(11-21-2025 07:01 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  

(11-21-2025 06:44 PM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  Ukraine is the victim?

Well yeah. But that doesn't matter now. It's playground rules...bigger kid is taking the lunch money...fought back to keep them from taking it forever. Took your swings and it didn't pan out. Keep it to just a black eye and a bloody nose because it gets worse.

So is Russia winning? Why would not Ukraine continue to fight if they are willing to do so?

Sometimes the bully on the playground meets Slim.

By the way, Putin just rejected the plan because Trump would get credit for being the top authority. So on with the battle.

Look, nobody was rooting for them harder than me. I loathe Putin and I think he's a scourge on humanity.

Do I think Russia is winning? I think that they've already won. Ukraine took their chances and fought valiantly, but entering into a meat grinder war of attrition with Russia has generally been a losing proposition since the days of Peter the great. Russia has always had a vast inventory of peasants they flat out don't care about to throw at an enemy. Soldiers are dispensable equipment.

The eastern front is slowly dissolving. The fact is Ukraine does not have enough trained manpower to stop this slow procession forward.

The only smart play is to swallow the ****** tasting medicine and accept terms now to keep your sovereignty. You don't have to like it, but that's the facts.

No sovereign nation in the history of mankind who has had to accept terms to keep from being wiped off the map have ever liked the terms that they've accepted. But it beats the alternative parade of awful.

(11-21-2025 06:28 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  You know that the alternative is actually a worse deal for Ukraine, right?

2 more years of killing another generation off and ending up with Russian troops in Kiev.

Those are the two choices.

Not if Ukraine can convince the Russian people that Ukraine is not worth it. That is at the moment their planned objective. And it’s not a last chance Hail Mary.

(11-21-2025 06:31 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(11-21-2025 06:28 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  You know that the alternative is actually a worse deal for Ukraine, right?

2 more years of killing another generation off and ending up with Russian troops in Kiev.

Those are the two choices.

Z lovers are delusional at this point.

Look at the title of the thread. Crazy

You would have made a good prog filth. You have narrowed this down your focus to one cult of personality.

Wish in one hand and spit in the other.

It's over.

(11-21-2025 07:16 PM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  

(11-21-2025 07:09 PM)TripleA Wrote:  

(11-21-2025 07:04 PM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  

(11-21-2025 01:57 PM)CrimsonPhantom Wrote:  Moscow’s Forces Conquer Northern Logistics Hub of Kupyansk – Russia Says Ukraine Has Lost 1,7 Million Troops in the War (VIDEOS)

Quote:Military Affairs reported:

“Russia’s takeover of Kupyansk, described by experts as a major blow to Ukraine’s command and defenses, exposes the gap between official claims and the situation on the ground.”

Russian military analyst Andrey Marochko told RIA Novosti that the loss of Kupyansk will deal a double blow to Ukraine’s command structure — damaging its reputation and destabilizing the entire defensive line in this sector.

He stressed that for Kiev, the fall of Kupyansk is a painful setback. The city served as a pivotal hub, crucial both for logistics and for maintaining the front.”

It seems this is more Russian propaganda. Kiev and other sources say Ukraine has complete control of Kupyansnk.
Just as I read this I see the top Russian general, Valery Gerasimov, is gone. Missing. And Putin has started arresting his staff. It’s a chit show in Russia. Does this look like a country not falling apart?

With all due respect, I still don't understand why this subject gets you so revved up. Most of us are indifferent. We realize Ukraine is the victim here, but it doesn't seem like our fight.

And in my case, Ukraine was a Soviet satellite for much of my life.

I don’t know. What do you get interested in. Maybe I don’t give a chit about what interests you. This is a message board man. It’s for discussing and debating chit. If you’re not interested, and I have said this to you several times, don’t read it. It’s really that simple instead of asking me every time I post something about it. I know you have plenty of time for reading and posting. And I know you are an interesting guy. But if you don’t care about this just don’t read my stuff. Otherwise I respect and agree with most all of your contributions here.

Sorry. I don't mean to irritate you. I just find it interesting. I will attempt to muzzle myself from this point.

Oh, but to answer your question, here's my list of what I'm interested in:

Family
Friends
Sports
Politics
U.S. Travel
Target Shooting
Cooking
Much more...

Thanks for asking. :)

Trump needs to tell NATO if they invite Ukraine we’re out of here. Simple as that.

Can’t let lazy spineless Europeans, who refuse to defend themselves, lead us down the crooked path to war against Russia.

(11-21-2025 06:44 PM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  Ukraine is the victim?

Correct Comrad. For future reference, RT is not a good source. Your entitled to your own opinion--but not your own facts.