(12-02-2024 11:47 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  And can't Congress act by proposing an Amendment to the Constitution to curb this power?

It would be pretty damn ironic if any Democrat did so. For at least three generations, it has been an article of faith among Democrats that the sufficient and in fact preferred way to correct the Constitution is not through that pesky amendment process, but simply to convince the courts to "evolve" it into saying what they wish it said.

(12-02-2024 01:54 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  

(12-02-2024 12:47 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(12-02-2024 11:10 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(12-02-2024 10:58 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  He clearly pardoned personal friends who did not deserve the pardons, citing the same reasons at Biden (political lawfare)

Refresh my memory. Who?

Kushners father.

Kushner served his sentence and paid a half-million dollar fine before being pardoned. He did not skate.

ETA pre-emptive statement: he was released to a halfway house after 14 months of his original 24 month sentence, but that was not Trump's doing.

A pardon is still an extremely valuable 'asset', even post conviction, and post sentence. It isnt a simple commutation.

(12-02-2024 03:03 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(12-02-2024 01:54 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  

(12-02-2024 12:47 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(12-02-2024 11:10 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(12-02-2024 10:58 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  He clearly pardoned personal friends who did not deserve the pardons, citing the same reasons at Biden (political lawfare)

Refresh my memory. Who?

Kushners father.

Kushner served his sentence and paid a half-million dollar fine before being pardoned. He did not skate.

ETA pre-emptive statement: he was released to a halfway house after 14 months of his original 24 month sentence, but that was not Trump's doing.

A pardon is still an extremely valuable 'asset', even post conviction, and post sentence. It isnt a simple commutation.

True. My point is that Hunter Biden's pardon is more than merely more of the same.

Hunter’s pardon covers anything he MAY have done or been a part of from 1-1-2014 to the end of 2024(?), eleven years. I believe the only pardon more sweeping in scope was Nixon. Conveniently covers his entire time at Burisma., Pretty much confirms that there was something dirty happening there.

Also, it would seem that this protects his father and uncle Jim, since now there is no pressure for Hunter to sing for a reduced sentence.

Also, there is reporting that it was always planned for Joe or President Harris to make this pardon, but it was decided to lie about it to the American people anyway, for obvious reasons.

The whole thing stinks to high heaven. Democrats are trying to explain it away, but I have lost any parental sympathy I had. Nothing but crooks avoiding justice.

But wait, there’s more

(12-02-2024 04:05 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  

(12-02-2024 03:03 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(12-02-2024 01:54 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  

(12-02-2024 12:47 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(12-02-2024 11:10 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Refresh my memory. Who?

Kushners father.

Kushner served his sentence and paid a half-million dollar fine before being pardoned. He did not skate.

ETA pre-emptive statement: he was released to a halfway house after 14 months of his original 24 month sentence, but that was not Trump's doing.

A pardon is still an extremely valuable 'asset', even post conviction, and post sentence. It isnt a simple commutation.

True. My point is that Hunter Biden's pardon is more than merely more of the same.

It doesn’t seem appreciably different enough for folks to be mad about Trump’s pardons and not about Biden’s, and vice versa.

Lemons to limes, not apples to tractors.

(12-03-2024 03:17 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Hunter’s pardon covers anything he MAY have done or been a part of from 1-1-2014 to the end of 2024(?), eleven years. I believe the only pardon more sweeping in scope was Nixon. Conveniently covers his entire time at Burisma., Pretty much confirms that there was something dirty happening there.

Also, it would seem that this protects his father and uncle Jim, since now there is no pressure for Hunter to sing for a reduced sentence.

Also, there is reporting that it was always planned for Joe or President Harris to make this pardon, but it was decided to lie about it to the American people anyway, for obvious reasons.

The whole thing stinks to high heaven. Democrats are trying to explain it away, but I have lost any parental sympathy I had. Nothing but crooks avoiding justice.

And yet you still voted for Trump.... lol.

Quote:Also, it would seem that this protects his father and uncle Jim, since now there is no pressure for Hunter to sing for a reduced sentence.

Actually just the opposite.

Since Hunter now has a pardon of that scope, Hunter cannot in any form invoke the 5th amendment in any criminal actions against others. Nor may he use the 5th amendment as a shield (albeit far more limited in this sense that in the criminal realm) in any civil action.

If Hunter refuses to testify via a grand jury -- his biggest shield to refuse to testify is now worthless, and now opens him up to fairly large perjury trap quests.

Bummer about that narrative above that the Hunter pardon is intended to stonewall any and all Biden prosecution, since that move is an utter failure in that regard with the action. It actually allows harder and much more immediate and direct pressure on Hunter in that regard.

(12-03-2024 09:19 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(12-03-2024 03:17 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Hunter’s pardon covers anything he MAY have done or been a part of from 1-1-2014 to the end of 2024(?), eleven years. I believe the only pardon more sweeping in scope was Nixon. Conveniently covers his entire time at Burisma., Pretty much confirms that there was something dirty happening there.

Also, it would seem that this protects his father and uncle Jim, since now there is no pressure for Hunter to sing for a reduced sentence.

Also, there is reporting that it was always planned for Joe or President Harris to make this pardon, but it was decided to lie about it to the American people anyway, for obvious reasons.

The whole thing stinks to high heaven. Democrats are trying to explain it away, but I have lost any parental sympathy I had. Nothing but crooks avoiding justice.

And yet you still voted for Trump.... lol.

Trump was...and still is... the lesser evil. And this episode is just another brick in that wall.

Neither you nor anybody else has ever even tried to make a case to persuade me that Kamala was a better choice, and I do not see how you can. You have spent a lot of time on "Orange Man Bad", zero on "Black Woman Better".

And it WAS a binary choice - it was going to one or the other, no matter how many people made symbolic votes for their grandmother or Jill Stein or the dog next door, as I presume you did.

I chose to vote for the lesser evil, rather than stay home or cast a symbolic vote. Any other action accrues to the benefit of the greater evil.

Get over it. You lost. The lesser evil was elected. Only historians keep fighting old battles.

(12-03-2024 09:31 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

Quote:Also, it would seem that this protects his father and uncle Jim, since now there is no pressure for Hunter to sing for a reduced sentence.

Actually just the opposite.

Since Hunter now has a pardon of that scope, Hunter cannot in any form invoke the 5th amendment in any criminal actions against others. Nor may he use the 5th amendment as a shield (albeit far more limited in this sense that in the criminal realm) in any civil action.

If Hunter refuses to testify via a grand jury -- his biggest shield to refuse to testify is now worthless, and now opens him up to fairly large perjury trap quests.

Bummer about that narrative above that the Hunter pardon is intended to stonewall any and all Biden prosecution, since that move is an utter failure in that regard with the action. It actually allows harder and much more immediate and direct pressure on Hunter in that regard.

He can be charged with obstruction if he refuses to testify. That's it. He's been pre-emptively pardoned of anything federal he might admit to while testifying. He effectively has complete and total immunity.

(12-03-2024 10:02 AM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  

(12-03-2024 09:31 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

Quote:Also, it would seem that this protects his father and uncle Jim, since now there is no pressure for Hunter to sing for a reduced sentence.

Actually just the opposite.

Since Hunter now has a pardon of that scope, Hunter cannot in any form invoke the 5th amendment in any criminal actions against others. Nor may he use the 5th amendment as a shield (albeit far more limited in this sense that in the criminal realm) in any civil action.

If Hunter refuses to testify via a grand jury -- his biggest shield to refuse to testify is now worthless, and now opens him up to fairly large perjury trap quests.

Bummer about that narrative above that the Hunter pardon is intended to stonewall any and all Biden prosecution, since that move is an utter failure in that regard with the action. It actually allows harder and much more immediate and direct pressure on Hunter in that regard.

He can be charged with obstruction if he refuses to testify. That's it. He's been pre-emptively pardoned of anything federal he might admit to while testifying. He effectively has complete and total immunity.

Seems like he has traded a possible 20 years in jail for a possible few months in jail.

(12-03-2024 09:52 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(12-03-2024 09:19 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(12-03-2024 03:17 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Hunter’s pardon covers anything he MAY have done or been a part of from 1-1-2014 to the end of 2024(?), eleven years. I believe the only pardon more sweeping in scope was Nixon. Conveniently covers his entire time at Burisma., Pretty much confirms that there was something dirty happening there.

Also, it would seem that this protects his father and uncle Jim, since now there is no pressure for Hunter to sing for a reduced sentence.

Also, there is reporting that it was always planned for Joe or President Harris to make this pardon, but it was decided to lie about it to the American people anyway, for obvious reasons.

The whole thing stinks to high heaven. Democrats are trying to explain it away, but I have lost any parental sympathy I had. Nothing but crooks avoiding justice.

And yet you still voted for Trump.... lol.

Trump was...and still is... the lesser evil. And this episode is just another brick in that wall.

Neither you nor anybody else has ever even tried to make a case to persuade me that Kamala was a better choice, and I do not see how you can. You have spent a lot of time on "Orange Man Bad", zero on "Black Woman Better".

And it WAS a binary choice - it was going to one or the other, no matter how many people made symbolic votes for their grandmother or Jill Stein or the dog next door, as I presume you did.

I chose to vote for the lesser evil, rather than stay home or cast a symbolic vote. Any other action accrues to the benefit of the greater evil.

Get over it. You lost. The lesser evil was elected. Only historians keep fighting old battles.

Says the dude who can't stop scouring the internet for ways to make Biden/Harris look bad?

The dude's guy won but rather than be happy he can't stop behaving like the aggrieved victim.

But sure... the bolded.

(12-03-2024 10:11 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(12-03-2024 10:02 AM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  

(12-03-2024 09:31 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

Quote:Also, it would seem that this protects his father and uncle Jim, since now there is no pressure for Hunter to sing for a reduced sentence.

Actually just the opposite.

Since Hunter now has a pardon of that scope, Hunter cannot in any form invoke the 5th amendment in any criminal actions against others. Nor may he use the 5th amendment as a shield (albeit far more limited in this sense that in the criminal realm) in any civil action.

If Hunter refuses to testify via a grand jury -- his biggest shield to refuse to testify is now worthless, and now opens him up to fairly large perjury trap quests.

Bummer about that narrative above that the Hunter pardon is intended to stonewall any and all Biden prosecution, since that move is an utter failure in that regard with the action. It actually allows harder and much more immediate and direct pressure on Hunter in that regard.

He can be charged with obstruction if he refuses to testify. That's it. He's been pre-emptively pardoned of anything federal he might admit to while testifying. He effectively has complete and total immunity.

Seems like he has traded a possible 20 years in jail for a possible few months in jail.

Obstruction is a lot more than a few months. At the very start.

(12-03-2024 10:02 AM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  

(12-03-2024 09:31 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

Quote:Also, it would seem that this protects his father and uncle Jim, since now there is no pressure for Hunter to sing for a reduced sentence.

Actually just the opposite.

Since Hunter now has a pardon of that scope, Hunter cannot in any form invoke the 5th amendment in any criminal actions against others. Nor may he use the 5th amendment as a shield (albeit far more limited in this sense that in the criminal realm) in any civil action.

If Hunter refuses to testify via a grand jury -- his biggest shield to refuse to testify is now worthless, and now opens him up to fairly large perjury trap quests.

Bummer about that narrative above that the Hunter pardon is intended to stonewall any and all Biden prosecution, since that move is an utter failure in that regard with the action. It actually allows harder and much more immediate and direct pressure on Hunter in that regard.

He can be charged with obstruction if he refuses to testify. That's it. He's been pre-emptively pardoned of anything federal he might admit to while testifying. He effectively has complete and total immunity.

Uh.... no. He has immunity from acts *he* did in *that* timeframe. And you have the issues a tad incorrect.

He refuses to testify in front of a GJ -- contempt right out of the starts. Jail time *until* he testifies.

He testifies untruthfully -- 5 years for *every* item that is false. Maybe an added obstruction on top of that. On top of the contempt served until he testifies.

Sorry, you are just baldly incorrect in your comments and in your assessment. He has no worry about being charged for the items *since* 2014 to roughly the present.

Converse is Feds are absolutely free to utilize the GJ in any manner they please with him. And there is a *lot* of downside to not testifying, and still a whole world more for being *anywhere* near untruthful.

(12-03-2024 09:52 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(12-03-2024 09:19 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(12-03-2024 03:17 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Hunter’s pardon covers anything he MAY have done or been a part of from 1-1-2014 to the end of 2024(?), eleven years. I believe the only pardon more sweeping in scope was Nixon. Conveniently covers his entire time at Burisma., Pretty much confirms that there was something dirty happening there.

Also, it would seem that this protects his father and uncle Jim, since now there is no pressure for Hunter to sing for a reduced sentence.

Also, there is reporting that it was always planned for Joe or President Harris to make this pardon, but it was decided to lie about it to the American people anyway, for obvious reasons.

The whole thing stinks to high heaven. Democrats are trying to explain it away, but I have lost any parental sympathy I had. Nothing but crooks avoiding justice.

And yet you still voted for Trump.... lol.

Trump was...and still is... the lesser evil. And this episode is just another brick in that wall.

Neither you nor anybody else has ever even tried to make a case to persuade me that Kamala was a better choice, and I do not see how you can. You have spent a lot of time on "Orange Man Bad", zero on "Black Woman Better".

And it WAS a binary choice - it was going to one or the other, no matter how many people made symbolic votes for their grandmother or Jill Stein or the dog next door, as I presume you did.

I chose to vote for the lesser evil, rather than stay home or cast a symbolic vote. Any other action accrues to the benefit of the greater evil.

Get over it. You lost. The lesser evil was elected. Only historians keep fighting old battles.

Please complain about the *horrendous* aspect 'crooks avoiding justice' some moar. It is quite humorous. Especially in light of your choice of the vote. I guess you fail to see the humor in that stark duality.

As for 'get over it', Im not the person constantly rehashing every iota of crap on one of the political opponents in the race, good sir. Just saying. Again the duality of the situtation is fairly humorous.

(12-03-2024 11:12 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(12-03-2024 10:02 AM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  

(12-03-2024 09:31 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

Quote:Also, it would seem that this protects his father and uncle Jim, since now there is no pressure for Hunter to sing for a reduced sentence.

Actually just the opposite.

Since Hunter now has a pardon of that scope, Hunter cannot in any form invoke the 5th amendment in any criminal actions against others. Nor may he use the 5th amendment as a shield (albeit far more limited in this sense that in the criminal realm) in any civil action.

If Hunter refuses to testify via a grand jury -- his biggest shield to refuse to testify is now worthless, and now opens him up to fairly large perjury trap quests.

Bummer about that narrative above that the Hunter pardon is intended to stonewall any and all Biden prosecution, since that move is an utter failure in that regard with the action. It actually allows harder and much more immediate and direct pressure on Hunter in that regard.

He can be charged with obstruction if he refuses to testify. That's it. He's been pre-emptively pardoned of anything federal he might admit to while testifying. He effectively has complete and total immunity.

Uh.... no. He has immunity from acts *he* did in *that* timeframe. And you have the issues a tad incorrect.

He refuses to testify in front of a GJ -- contempt right out of the starts. Jail time *until* he testifies.

He testifies untruthfully -- 5 years for *every* item that is false. Maybe an added obstruction on top of that. On top of the contempt served until he testifies.

Sorry, you are just baldly incorrect in your comments and in your assessment. He has no worry about being charged for the items *since* 2014 to roughly the present.

Converse is Feds are absolutely free to utilize the GJ in any manner they please with him. And there is a *lot* of downside to not testifying, and still a whole world more for being *anywhere* near untruthful.

I said he has immunity for any federal crime he committed in the last ten years.

I did NOT say he would have immunity for perjury or obstruction committed from this day forward. I said he COULD admit during testimony that he committed crimes in the 2014-2024 timeframe with effective immunity from prosecution for what he admits.

What part of the above is "baldly incorrect?" Perhaps you misunderstood me?

More to my point: so what? A few posts ago you referred to this pardon as "horrendous". Now you're applying lipstick to the pig by holding out the possibility that maybe he'll be held for contempt or obstruction.

(12-03-2024 11:14 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(12-03-2024 09:52 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(12-03-2024 09:19 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(12-03-2024 03:17 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Hunter’s pardon covers anything he MAY have done or been a part of from 1-1-2014 to the end of 2024(?), eleven years. I believe the only pardon more sweeping in scope was Nixon. Conveniently covers his entire time at Burisma., Pretty much confirms that there was something dirty happening there.

Also, it would seem that this protects his father and uncle Jim, since now there is no pressure for Hunter to sing for a reduced sentence.

Also, there is reporting that it was always planned for Joe or President Harris to make this pardon, but it was decided to lie about it to the American people anyway, for obvious reasons.

The whole thing stinks to high heaven. Democrats are trying to explain it away, but I have lost any parental sympathy I had. Nothing but crooks avoiding justice.

And yet you still voted for Trump.... lol.

Trump was...and still is... the lesser evil. And this episode is just another brick in that wall.

Neither you nor anybody else has ever even tried to make a case to persuade me that Kamala was a better choice, and I do not see how you can. You have spent a lot of time on "Orange Man Bad", zero on "Black Woman Better".

And it WAS a binary choice - it was going to one or the other, no matter how many people made symbolic votes for their grandmother or Jill Stein or the dog next door, as I presume you did.

I chose to vote for the lesser evil, rather than stay home or cast a symbolic vote. Any other action accrues to the benefit of the greater evil.

Get over it. You lost. The lesser evil was elected. Only historians keep fighting old battles.

Please complain about the *horrendous* aspect 'crooks avoiding justice' some moar. It is quite humorous. Especially in light of your choice of the vote. I guess you fail to see the humor in that stark duality.

As for 'get over it', Im not the person constantly rehashing every iota of crap on one of the political opponents in the race, good sir. Just saying. Again the duality of the situtation is fairly humorous.

"Horrendous" was your own word for it!

(12-03-2024 11:19 AM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  

(12-03-2024 11:12 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(12-03-2024 10:02 AM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  

(12-03-2024 09:31 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

Quote:Also, it would seem that this protects his father and uncle Jim, since now there is no pressure for Hunter to sing for a reduced sentence.

Actually just the opposite.

Since Hunter now has a pardon of that scope, Hunter cannot in any form invoke the 5th amendment in any criminal actions against others. Nor may he use the 5th amendment as a shield (albeit far more limited in this sense that in the criminal realm) in any civil action.

If Hunter refuses to testify via a grand jury -- his biggest shield to refuse to testify is now worthless, and now opens him up to fairly large perjury trap quests.

Bummer about that narrative above that the Hunter pardon is intended to stonewall any and all Biden prosecution, since that move is an utter failure in that regard with the action. It actually allows harder and much more immediate and direct pressure on Hunter in that regard.

He can be charged with obstruction if he refuses to testify. That's it. He's been pre-emptively pardoned of anything federal he might admit to while testifying. He effectively has complete and total immunity.

Uh.... no. He has immunity from acts *he* did in *that* timeframe. And you have the issues a tad incorrect.

He refuses to testify in front of a GJ -- contempt right out of the starts. Jail time *until* he testifies.

He testifies untruthfully -- 5 years for *every* item that is false. Maybe an added obstruction on top of that. On top of the contempt served until he testifies.

Sorry, you are just baldly incorrect in your comments and in your assessment. He has no worry about being charged for the items *since* 2014 to roughly the present.

Converse is Feds are absolutely free to utilize the GJ in any manner they please with him. And there is a *lot* of downside to not testifying, and still a whole world more for being *anywhere* near untruthful.

I said he has immunity for any federal crime he committed in the last ten years.

I did NOT say he would have immunity for perjury or obstruction committed from this day forward. I said he COULD admit during testimony that he committed crimes in the 2014-2024 timeframe with effective immunity from prosecution for what he admits.

What part of the above is "baldly incorrect?" Perhaps you misunderstood me?

More to my point: so what? A few posts ago you referred to this pardon as "horrendous". Now you're applying lipstick to the pig by holding out the possibility that maybe he'll be held for contempt or obstruction.

The comment about “effectively having complete and total immunity” was confusing to me as well, as it wasn’t bound in time and what was being discussed were potential implications of lying under oath that would not be covered by said immunity.

It’s not good that Biden pardoned Hunter, and so broadly. But the talking heads have identified this issue Tanq discusses, which could provide some modicum of justice should there be crimes that are being covered up.

(12-03-2024 09:52 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Trump was...and still is... the lesser evil. And this episode is just another brick in that wall.
...
Get over it. You lost. The lesser evil was elected.

This is almost chuckleworthy, as in "Haha, old gramps is off his meds again", if it weren't for the fact that you're serious.

You voted for the kakistocracy. Own it.

(12-03-2024 11:27 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  should there be crimes that are being covered up.

"should there be"?

The mere fact of the term going back to (gasp!) 2014 should be a clue.