(10-01-2021 04:40 PM)TylerTiger Wrote:  

(10-01-2021 04:25 PM)DENO TIGER Wrote:  

(10-01-2021 04:02 PM)TylerTiger Wrote:  

(10-01-2021 02:29 PM)bluecrew Wrote:  

(10-01-2021 10:33 AM)TylerTiger Wrote:  Strangely, the option between two different possibilities is directly correlated to the concept of choice, even in situations of ultimatums. But your options are black and white and are faulty as it negates any of the other possible outcomes that exist.

It can be get vaccine or the outcomes you said.
It can be get vaccine or find a different job that works better for you.
It can be get vaccine or home school.
It can be get vaccine or use a different service.

There's a lot of different variants and offering false alternative to fit that definition is wrong.

People already make choices about vaccinating their children for school or risk not being able to place them in schools due to risking the health of other children. People make this decision even into college, military, various jobs, traveling, etc. We even enforce this as part of entry to the country ourselves, typically.

Being forced to do something means there's no alternative, that there is no other option. The reality is: There are other options and choices, but you may not like the consequences of the other choice. And businesses have the right to make the choices themselves as well. Even under the duress of the government going through OSHA, businesses have the choice to comply, or just pay the fines. OR you can just take a test and not get vaccinated. Once again showing that there are other options.

If, and that's a big if, the government starts gathering people up into caravans and strapping them down and vaccinating them against their will, then it's force. And everyone will be on your side.

Until then, it's just hyperbole whining.

Nonsense.

Just because you have an alternative (take a different job, be homeschooled, etc) doesn’t mean you aren’t being forced out of the job you have, the school you attend, etc.

Are you honestly suggesting that force only occurs when someone is strapped to a table and given the injection? Surely not.

And btw, I’m not sure what “my side” even is. I’m a fully vaccinated adult who understands those who are hesitant to get vaccinated. Those ppl make a lot more sense to me than you do.

It, by definition, means you're not being forced out of something. People use this same crappy logic about jobs - you either work whatever job you can get, or you don't live. But then it's a beautiful "choice" to not work the crappy job even though the market may shaft people.

Yes, coercion is direct physical force where this no alternative. If you have the choice to deal with the alternatives, you have choice and you're free to make them. Companies have the right to present this choice to you, as they do anything else.

What your complaint is is that the consequences are of not to your liking, but that's the point of having your own volition - to be responsible for the consequences of the choices you are given and the ones you make. Every choice comes with alternatives, consequences, and something or someone presenting them to you.

Liberty is not absence of consequences of choice, nor absence of being given choices. Conceptually, this is not force or coercion. Because you feel like it is does not make it so.

The initiation of physical force is the only means your rights can be violated. It is not an infringement on your rights to be given a choice by your employer or the people around you. Physical force is what denies you your right to choose and your own volition. Ultimatums do not. Ultimatums give you the options, and the consequences can vary. They're uncomfortable, and they're challenging, but they're not coercion nor taking away your rights to choose.

I understand those who can be hesitant to get vaccinated. The anti-vaxxers are the issue who are borderline paranoid schizoids. IF the government decides to initiation physical force against you, that is the violation of your rights. IF a criminal attacks you, that is a violation of your rights.

In this scenario, no one is forcing you into a vaccine - you have an array of options and choices open to you.

IMO it's force when you have to give up what you love if you dont take the shots or produce documents saying you've been tested around that time . There's ways to force people without "forcing" them . If you want to travel , go to ballgames , see the opera to name a few , you'll have to prove you're not infected . You'll also be an outcast if you dont get the shots or produce documents to prove you are now part of the herd ............... I hate the shots but ended up taking them because I love my wife and want us to be able to live somewhat normally , and I hope we dont pay for this 5 years down the road . Just my two cents tifwiw .

I mean, people have to choose between a lot of things they love versus other things. I love to be a writer, but since writing isn’t going to give me money, my choice is to work and not do what I love to do. Because that’s reality and my rational self-interest will always take precedent over what I love to do. It isn’t force to have to choose to do something else. No one is being denied what they love to do - their choice is to decide not to do that based on other things. That’s the part of making one’s judgments based on the given facts of reality.

I appreciate your two cents and I truly do understand the sentiment, it’s just that, in practice, I don’t think it makes sense. If we didn’t have to make tough decisions, there wouldn’t be free will. Companies have to choose what they believe is best (and some may not comply), and so do the rest of us.

It’s a harsh cruel world. But at least this decision is either get a vaccine or be tested, or look elsewhere. Versus should I eat this bread today when I am a little hungry, or to eat it when I am really hungry though it may go bad.

Its embarrassing that you felt compelled to post this.

Anybody that requires my medical records, in any form, to do something as mundane as see a damn basketball game can frick right on off.

This kind of subservience to authoritarian group think will have tragic consequences. People that dont get this are weak drones. I pity them.