(06-01-2020 10:40 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(06-01-2020 10:18 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-01-2020 09:29 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(06-01-2020 08:46 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  I just thought it weird that somebody could look at that video and not think that the cops killed George Floyd.

Perhaps I read about the condition he exhibited prior to his final face down position.

Again, when he was removed from his car, he complained about a shortness of breath. When leading him to the cruiser, he collapsed. He was brought back up, then collapsed again. He was brought to his feet a second time, and again he complained of a shortness of breath.

One might surmise he is, at the point of being brought out of his car, already having an attack of some sort. That series is kind of spot on how my grandfather died.

And yet the pathology report made no mention of heart attack.

Where did I mention 'heart attack' above, please.

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Quote:Second, had the initial findings noted asphyxia, I wouldnt have much doubt. They didnt show that.

I look at that video and I see a horrible assault on a man being detained.

And, even before knowing about the symptoms he exhibited before he fell for the last time, I dont automatically assume that the very horrific assault led to his death. Did it seem possible? Of course. Probable? Maybe. But I have seen other actions that I would have sworn to the Bible and back would/should have led to death but didnt. Perhaps I am jaded on the concept of 'actual causation' and have myself fallen for the hook line and sinker of a kneejerk assumption.

Sure. Strange things happen. Probably not likely. Enough to freak out on my use of the term "killing" in the thread title? IMO, no.

I will call a kneejerk assumption a kneejerk assumption. Your kneejerk assumption is still somewhat of a kneejerk assumption.

Not really a kneejerk reaction IMO to call this a killing rather than hedging bet until final report came out. Seemed pretty obvious.

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Quote:There is a concept called 'cause in fact', and requirement of that is --- well -- fact. There were no underlying facts to automatically assume the belief that the knee in the neck would cause that death. There is good cause to think that, but there is also that realm that it did not when underlying facts are missing.

As it stands, the knee on the neck doesnt have such a clear link to the physical reason of his death by heart failure. The prosecutors are going to have a bear of a time proving a murder that way.

I've see you've got your doctor hat on again. I doubt the experts will agree with you on this assertion. Time will tell.

Can you cite where in your esteemed knowledge a knee on the neck leads to cardiac arrest?

This cardiologist's explanation might help. Sorry that it's Youtube. I hope that doesn't cause you undue rage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egRf84EqaJI

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Quote:The easier mode is this: Chauvin had reason to know Floyd was under physical distress *at the time he was removed from his car*. He exhibited all the classic symptoms of heart failure. When cops detain you, they assume all responsibility for your well being. Chauvin ignored those very visible symptoms. In that short little summary, you have at the very least negligent homicide -- a manslaughter 2 count. Right then and there.

The act of the knee on the neck *even in light* of the classic symptoms of heart failure shows potentially a depraved indifference to Chauvin's well being -- in fact to Chauvin's life. His continued refusal to heed the calls by his other cops is another point; as is the continued refusal to heed the calls of the bystanders. That is enough for a murder 3 count -- depraved or reckless indifference.

Seems like you are trying to describe a heart attack here.

I am noting some of the symptoms of heart failure as well. That is, cardiac arrest. That is cardiopulmonary arrest.

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Quote:The other key is that Chauvin both had an official responsibility for Floyd's well being, but he also had 'physical control' of Floyd at the very same time.

But you all are so gd fixated that the knee was the cause in fact to the death, that the more realistic alternative seems to fly right past you.

What was the more realistic alternative? I'm confused again. "Heart failure" unrelated to the knee in the neck?

It's only confusing when you ignore his issues after being detained and prior to his final collapse. That is, the 'heart failure' that is denoted in the Hennepin County patholology report. You seem extraordinarily resistant to the official COD for some fing reason.

The exact COD lists cardiopulmonary arrest. Also "restraint" and "neck compression".

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Quote:I'll be interested to see if actual medical experts agree with your proposed sequence here. Perhaps even medical experts that post on Twitter?

Strangely the Hennepin County pathologist agrees that heart failure was a COD. Strangely you studiously ignore that.

I don't see "heart failure" under COD. I see "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual". Also "restraint". Also "neck compression".

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Quote:And when they are let go at the appellate level for an 'insufficiency of evidence' or a 'just a friggin wrong application of the law to the facts', it will be attitudes like yours that guarantee another city going up in smoke. Got to love that bloodlust.

But that is why I am not a tremendously large fan of progressive causes for the whole part.

So, go ahead and preemptively believe that a knee in the neck causes heart failure. Sounds like fun to me. Also sounds like a belief system that I would prefer not to practice -- that is the belief trumps the factual record.

I think a prolonged knee in the neck could cause cardiopulmonary arrest as described by the pathology report. I'm a bit confused still... what exactly are you proposing led to his death?

Funnily I am proposing cardiopulmonary arrest, and restraint as the primary physical COD. You know, those things listed on the Hennepin County pathology report.

You yet again left out "neck compression". So weird that you keep leaving that one out. Why do you think "neck compression" is listed under COD?