(12-31-2019 09:47 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(12-31-2019 08:16 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(12-30-2019 11:59 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(12-30-2019 11:02 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(12-30-2019 02:19 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Obtaining a conceal carry permit requires a not insubstantial amount of training. One wold assume the 6 packing all had that.

I think the guy who killed the shooter had more than just the training required for a concealed carry license...

Quote: Wilson said he was head of security for the West Freeway Church of Christ and that he and other members of the church who were part of the congregation's volunteer security team were "not going to allow evil to succeed." Wilson in the past has owned a gun range, taught firearm safety, including members of the church's security team, and was a former Hood County reserve deputy.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcdfw....true%26amp

If you read further, the security team ID’d the shooter as being suspect when he entered the church, and they were ready to act as soon as the shotgun was pulled and fired.

This is a great example of how well trained and prepared individuals can be a great tool to stop mass shooters and protect innocent bystanders. I’m not sure how far we can extrapolate these results to the average Joe with even some training.

I am pretty sure.

The security team was volunteers from within the church. You seem to be making an assumption that all of them had experience and background equal to or better than Wilson, when in fact the opposite is most likely to be true. Wilson was appointed head of security for a reason.

I ask you again, on what basis to you assume even one of the people with guns in the church was untrained? On what basis do you think they should not have been allowed there with their gun?

I think if somebody has enough training to qualify for a concealed carry license, he has enough training.

Not sure how I’m making the assumption that they all have equal experience and background, especially since I asked if anyone else fired a shot.

I’m not assuming they are untrained, nor did I say that I think they should not have been allowed to have their gun there. Can you point me to where I said that?

Maybe there was some confusion with my first post, when I mentioned that we need to add “trained” to the saying about how good guys with guns stop bad guys with guns. That wasn’t saying that these men weren’t trained, but rather that it is clear that, in this instance, the training and gun handling proficiency played a significant role in stopping the mass shooter.

Do you disagree that the training these men undertook played a role in them reacting so swiftly?

I think one of them was exceptionally highly trained. And that one was very specifically noting the shooter from the get go.

At least 4 others were trained sufficiently to be able to assess the situation and react appropriately, based on video and stills that I saw. They happened not to be 'head of security' but in the congregation, and they also happened to be less 'hawkeye' on the baddie as the head of security, as would be expected of a attendee as opposed to a head of security.

I think we are in agreement that trained men and women with guns are a good antidote to bad men with guns.

I think the training required to get a concealed carry permit is enough. I think anything beyond is just gravy. So, if your congregation has men who have law enforcement experience, fine. sign 'em up. If there is somebody who owns a gun range, good. But those guys are rare, so if those are the floor, then there will not be many volunteer guards who meet the Lad requirements.

The video showed six men drawing guns. It is likely all six were part of the security force, but even if they were not, it is likely that they had concealed carry permits. I think it is very unlikely that any were scofflaws who were carrying concealed weapons unlawfully. I grew up in that kind of church, and one of the constant sermons was "render unto Caesar" (follow the laws of men as well as of God).

What training beyond that for a CC permit do you think should be required to be a part of a volunteer church security team?

I don't know if you have ever been to Hood county, but I have. Being a reserve deputy there is not the elite of law enforcement. More like being a reserve linebacker for a D-III school.

I do think that good men with guns are more likely to stop bad men with guns in any public place. More likely than a sign on the wall(saying no guns allowed), anyway. But if you think the sign makes it safer, state your case.