(01-31-2022 10:54 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-31-2022 10:10 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(01-31-2022 10:05 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-31-2022 09:54 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(01-31-2022 09:50 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Agree. Especially the part about about nobody having a problem with a black women being picked. (unless she is an ideologue like Lani Guinier)


Yes. One of the things I liked about Trump was that he went out of his way to keep his promises, even those I did not like. I respect Biden for trying to keep his promise, even though he never should have made that promise to begin with. Is the promise more to Jim Clyburn than to the American people, though? Reagan kept his promise, too.


So if AA is FOR POCs, who is it AGAINST, and on what basis?

I am pretty sure Hitler and the other Nazis were against Aryans being discriminated against. In fact, that was the basis for their campaign against Jews. So it wasn't discrimination they didn't like, itself. It was discrimination against favored groups.

Is it AGAINST white people? So like, decades ago when you couldn't find many POC in executive positions or at elite schools what would you have done to change that? Nothing? Just tell everybody, "hey guys... we're being pretty racist... let's stop that, OK?" These programs were put in place to address a real problem.

Not that I want to rehash the whole AA debate by any means...

And in two words, you sum up one of my peeves with AA.

DECADES AGO

Like I said, the whole debate is about make up calls for things that happen decades, centuries, or even millennia ago.

maybe it is time to start sunsetting racist policies used to offset things that happened decades ago. How many make up calls are needed, and for how long. The answers seem to be infinite and forever.


A racist policy is a policy that favors one race over another. You seem to see that clearly when it is the white race being favored. Not so much the other way around.

Explain to me, if you will, how a policy based on race is not racist? How a candidate can get preference based on race, and it not be racist?

This is a conversation that has been had so many times on this board, it's just another rehash... Oof.

There are two issues here, and they are based on differences of opinion about the level/impact of historical and active racism today and how racist/racism is defined.

To the former, I would guess 93 and I believe there are more effects and active racism today than you do. To the latter, I would guess 93 and I believe something being based on race isn't inherently racist; that something is racist when it actively seeks to harm, disadvantage, etc. another based on their race.

I think the level of actual/active racism is much lower than it used to be (didn't you object to me making this observation before?). Maybe you could talk to some black people under 50 and let them tell you stories of how they were forced to use inferior bathrooms and not allowed to eat in certain restaurants. I would be interested in hearing those stories, as I think they don't exist.

I also think the institutional racism is about gone. I don't know of any schools or large businesses that have a policy of only hiring whites. I do know of a few businesses that only hire blacks. The racism codified in the law (separate but equal) is gone. Except, of course, for Affirmative Action. All anti-black racism today is individuals. Not so all anti-white racism.

the anti=racism movement has moved from correcting current policies to correcting for policies from long ago. For example, it has moved from enforcing equal access to, say restaurants, to trying to correct for access denied "Decades ago".

To your final sentence, I disagree. On its most basic level, AA is supposed to choose between two candidates for any position, other things being equal. If the white guy losses the job because he is white, how is that any different from the black guy in 1955 not getting the job because he is black? Isn't the white guy affected solely because of his race? That, my friend, is racism.

You mention the definition of racism. Here is mine:

Racism is the making of decisions about, or the forming of attitudes toward, any person or group of persons, based in whole or in part on their race.

Notice, there is no bias for/against any race in this definition.

I would like to hear your definition of racism and 93's. Can either of you give a definition that has no bias for/against any race?

AA makes decisions toward persons and groups based in part on their race. Racism.

I just discussed my discussion of racism.

Do you think these AA-type programs were necessary back in the day when there was obvious bias and obvious inequalities but they are no longer necessary today?