(07-18-2017 11:08 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(07-18-2017 08:18 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-17-2017 06:52 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Actually the Texas Bill does NOT mandate that Trans people use the bathroom consistent with their equipment. It mandates that people use the restroom consistent with the equipment they were BORN with, not as they have now.

Where did I fail to make it pretty clear that I oppose that standard?

Quote:Part of your issue is that you fundamentally mistake what you want the law to be, with what it actually is.

No, I don't mistake anything.

Your mistake is that you don't pay attention to what I am saying. I'm not saying that I favor the Texas bill as drafted. I don't agree with it. I would guess that I pretty much share your opinion of Dan Patrick as well.

All I'm saying is that there has to be some standard. Your right to be able to pee and poop is universal. That's not being challenged here. Your "right" to pee or poop where you want to, because that is most comfortable to you, has to be weighed against the rights of others not to be put to discomfort by your choice. It's nothing more than a comfort issue both ways, not any sort of fundamental right.

If you have male equipment, you have a right to pee in the boys' room. You do not have a right to pee in the girls' room. And vice versa. That does not in any way interfere with your rights, and it protects the rights of others. I'm not at all opposed to deciding that based on the equipment you have today, and I think that makes more sense for many reasons than deciding that based upon the equipment you were born with.

As I've said before, your fundamental problem is that you are unwilling to give any weight to the rights of anyone but the LGBT community. You have to balance the rights of one with the rights of the other. And when the issue is nothing more than do we make 1% more comfortable or do we make 99% more comfortable, that would seem to be well over in slam dunk territory.

Again, I'll pose the question. How would you resolve the issue, giving appropriate weight to the interests of both groups?

I understood you completely because I agree with you and have had the same conversation with Tom....

Tom will refuse to give appropriate weight to both groups... and call you/allude to you being a bigot for not just accepting his position as being the only one that matters/describes fairness.

Like you, I don't favor the Texas bill, but I DO favor a bill/decision.

I'd favor the same approach we've given to people with disabilities. New buildings need to go to single use bathrooms, or 'three' options. Male, female or 'single'. Older buildings comply as they update, but are grandfathered. The problem isn't even trans-sexuals... 90+% of whom you wouldn't know what kind of equipment they had and wouldn't question them walking into whichever bathroom they presented themselves as..... it is those who now take this to another level and are gender fluid or some other definition wanting to be catered to. It's not the public's responsibility to cater to every possibility.

If you present as a man, then use the men's. If you present as a woman, then use the women's. That's the way I'd go. I think a man dressed as a woman going into the women's and accused of being a pervert simply because of how they dressed would be able to prove the allegations false by demonstrating that they regularly dress as a woman and/or that they are under care or counseling for possible gender reassignment (at least with a preacher or other professional).

I suppose this creates a problem for the guy who just yesterday decided he was going to start dressing as a woman and hasn't spoken to ANY professional about it and needs to use a public facility right now and no single option is available... but seriously... I'm betting this person doesn't exist other than as a statistic.


the problem is, while this is better than 'The Texas plan', few on the left will go for it... so why should the evangelicals compromise, or why should the 'mainstream' right buck them? The left wants either to force trillions in spending by government or business or create victims galore.

Here's the REAL question, Tom....

Can you show me a bathroom bill from a Democratically controlled state that is better (in your opinion) than what I, Bull or Owl have suggested?

Here's my view.

1) Someone's right to be 'comfortable' does not and should never interfere with the access to commerce and education by a minority
2) There are no need for any bathroom bill, other than one that mandates access for those matching their gender either at birth, as transitioned
to, or those in the process of transitioning under the care of a medical doctor. This access should be EQUAL in every way to that of those who were born a certain gender.
3) Every single bathroom bill proposed has mandated that some post op men use the women's room (or post of women use the mens room). Every single, last one of them. These bills are all lies. So long as the other side is being 100% disingenuous regarding the content of their bills, there's no point in debating it.
4) Virtually every one of these bills also removes employment and/or public accoomodations access for LGBT persons. That is what these bills are about.
5) Every debate on this issue centers around the haters trying to scapegoat and punish Trans people for crimes they are not committing. None of these bills do anything to help even mitigate the issue of pervitude in restrooms/changing rooms. Not one single bill. Because all of them mandate some men in womens rooms. So business owners and the state will get sued if they question any man in a ladies room if they guess wrong and the man is simply a post op F to M complying with the law. After a few lawsuits, business owners and the state will simply stop questioning anyone. And God forbid any person complying with the law is assaulted or murdered. The killer/assaulter will probably get no jail time, but it will result in massive boycotts of that municipality.

And the haters in the GOP know this. They don't care. They're just looking to hate.

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Under no circumstances should any post op or transitioning (under the care of medical doctor) Trans person ever have to have any disminishment of their full and equal participation in society. Having a 'question mark' restroom for Trans kids is never acceptable because it opens the kids to abuse. Banning Trans kids from MALE ALPHA TEAM sports is also unacceptable. Making Trans people with 200 years for some sort of refurbishment of a building to have access is also unacceptable.

Because there IS a solution that works right now....simply allow Trans persons to use the facility consistent with that which they present after surgery or during the process of transitioning under the care of a medical doctor. No need to spend so much as one dime. Just treat people fairly.