Before responding to the particulars, a few extremely quick points. (1) Do either of you think Trump's handling of immigration policy along the southern border has been a foreign policy win? Because that is the only point I made initially. (2) We have discussed border policy on this board before and I'm not sure it is worth rehashing unless someone has changed their position. https://csnbbs.com/thread-881363-post-16...id16274509

(01-10-2020 10:17 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  True, this country had open immigration for a long time. At the same time, they had no income tax. So if we must return to the 1840's, let's do it on both issues.

Who is arguing for open immigration? I'm not. I am fine with caps and quotas.

(01-10-2020 10:17 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Emma Lazurus was a poet. should we also take the writings of Whiman, Frost, and Sandburgs as policy guides? There is a great poem about the postal service - neither rain nor snow, etc. Should we codify that as policy?

The New Colossus is an extremely famous poem with perhaps the USA's most recognizable landmark. I consider it to be a story of the USA's history and an ideal to which this country should strive (within reason). Unless you're native american, alaska native, or eskimo, you are the descendant of immigrants or an immigrant. So no, I don't think other random poems should be codified as policy. I don't think this poem should be codified as policy either and never said so. It is an ideal that policymakers should keep in their mind while devising policy. Who we are as a country and where we came from matters.

(01-10-2020 10:17 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I have extensive experience with the border and Mexico, and am part Hispanic myself.

Thanks for the perspective.

(01-10-2020 10:17 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  If this country has a need a for uneducated and unskilled workers, then the ones wading the river will do just fine.

I think certain industries (agriculture, construction, Trump hotels and golf courses) do have such a need. I'd rather have those people here in the system on green cards than here illegally.

(01-10-2020 10:17 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I think during the latest crises, they have been. I think the media representations - and Democratic representations - of ICE agents as heartless Nazis who love mistreating children are both false and overblown. They are a bunch of people who were caught between competing directives and using overwhelmed facilities. I have broken bread with them - they are people just like you and me. About half are Hispanic themselves.

I have represented ICE twice. I agree with your assessment of most agents that I have worked with. But there are some bad apples, as I have met a couple of them as well. I agree that part of the problem is overwhelmed facilities. I'd also argue part of it is inadequate facilities, and at times the for-profit nature of the facilities. I am concerned that the particular nature of ICE work does draw a disproportionate number of bad apples compared to other law enforcement agencies, but I don't have evidence for that and it is just a concern of mine.

(01-10-2020 10:17 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Yet any desire to stem illegal immigration is cast by one side as racist, and any action to do so is cast by that same side as nazi-like.

I think your categorization is misleading, most people on the left complaining about the situation at the southern border and immigration are staying away from casting this as racist or nazi-like. Its unfair to group all of us together, just like it would be unfair for me to group people on the right with the proud boys. That said, from Stephen Miller's emails to Trump's "very fine people on both sides" comment, the Trump administration has taken some justified criticism for its handling of race issues and the southern border. Separating kids from parents en masse is a horrible policy, especially when those kids are getting lost in the system, being kept in poor conditions, and sometimes dying from easily preventable problems while in custody. That is a legitimate source of complaint and a stain on the USA.

(01-10-2020 10:31 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  This country is not being founded anymore. It is time for merit-based immigration, just like virtually every other country in the world.

I find it somewhat hypocritical that the left likes to parade around this platitude about how we are the only developed country without universal health care, but utterly ignores other things that we are the only, or virtually the only, country without.

We are a different country from other countries. Sometimes I am happy with those differences and sometimes I am disappointed about those differences. I don't think it is hypocritical for a person or party to argue that we should be more similar to other countries in some ways and different from them in others, unless that person is arguing that we should be like other countries in either all or no ways.