(10-25-2018 08:16 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(10-25-2018 04:30 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(10-25-2018 04:10 PM)OldOwlNewHeel2 Wrote:  

(10-25-2018 03:36 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Yep. You proved it to me. 50 some odd years of experience shown to be wrong. 100% of illegals will give up 20 per cent of their take to get that badge. Got it.

Sorry Lad, this is just pretty much laughable. It is so utterly divorced from reality to be.... well.... laughable. Sorry.

Just to be fair: how many illegals have *you* had that conversation with? Can you count them on one hand?

Honestly, going back to a lot of pro bono work and the clinics in law school, I have had that conversation. More than once. Probably more than a hundred or so times. I can count on the fingers of one (maybe two) hand(s) the answer that you seemingly think is the real world.

The overhead of the taxation system and the tying of individuals by tracking those finances is an overhead that the vast, vast majority of undocumented workers will not trade. No ifs, ands, or buts on that.

Dont get me wrong -- I am not chastising it. Just a statement of what 'is' without any moralism or political point being impugned here.

If you dont believe me, volunteer to do something like CASA work and be in position (actually almost a requirement) to actually ask that question outside the walls of a posting board and theory. The answers you get might surprise you.

Where were you and OO when all of these misguided DACA registrants were signing up? Didn't they know how awesome life would be if they continued to just remain in the shadows? What about the 4.6 million people a year who file tax returns despite not having an SSN? Obviously they don't appreciate how good they have it. Why don't you guys get out there and spread the gospel?

How many undocumented workers have *you* bothered to interact with on this? Should be a pretty simple question to answer there OONH. You dodged it once before. Funny that.

By the way, nice use of 'misguided' in your snarkfest. I dont have a dog in the fight on what the individuals I interact do or how they do it. And, I made it fairly plain and stark that I simply don't judge on that issue. As I told this board, if I didnt have the yoke of 1099's and a SSN I damn well know what I would do..... and I cannot fault anyone in that situation for that. Pure economics. But I am sure you missed that.

But the numbers are the numbers..... what do you want me to do about that? Go back and try and change their minds for them (for you)?

Sorry you dont like the answer given. Not my fault. It is *their* answers. How should I atone to you for that?

To be equally snarky, I can send you a pretty long list of people you should spread that gospel to as well. Should I try to reconnect with them to get permission to reveal their names to you? Perhaps you can be "Johnny Social Security Seed".

I’m confused, you’re provided evidence of people willingly coming forward to gain legal status (and thus be tied to a SSN and eventually federal taxation) and millions of people paying taxes without having a SSN, and your response is asking for anecdotal evidence and seemingly putting your head in the sand?

I think what he wants you to do is admit that, perhaps, there’s more evidence that people out there that would be willing to pay federal income taxes in the exchange for legal status.

Evidence? DO you all even know what an ITIN is or what it is used for? Geezus krist..... Let's actually go back to 'real world' school for you all.

Quote:4.6 million people who file a tax form who cant get a SSN

Do you all actually think that this number is a proxy for undocumented illegals? First, any foreign investor who gets any portion of of any financial transaction from a US based investment has to have one. Simply because they do not meet the requirements for a SSN number.

That means every member of every LLC and every member of every pass through partnership who is a foreign national needs an ITIN. Every single individual.

Further, any foreign individual who owns any publicly traded security in the United States needs one of these numbers. Every one of them.

And on top of that, every foreign national who has any bank account in the United States needs one of these numbers. Every single one of them.

And on top of *that*, every foreign national that has a trading account based in the US needs one of these. Every single one of them.

And on top of that, every foreign national that is a member of partnership, an LLC, or has an interest in a hedge fund that is based even in part in the United States needs one of these numbers. Every. Single. One. Of. Them.

How many of those people exist there? I'd say conservatively 3-4 million. I know of some VC firms that have to track upwards of 10-20k of these at a *single* fund.

Next on the list are the people who come into the United States as dependents of H1 and F1 visas. When you have the dependent visa, when you have or sign on a bank account, you need a ITIN. They are not eligible for SSNs, but require the ITIN for reporting purposes for bank accounts. Seems to me that I know a metric ton of H1 and/or F1 visa holders whose spouses were with them. How many F1 and H1 visa holders are there, and how many spouses apply for an ITIN for a bank account? If you are using the ITIN number as evidence to say what you want it to say, I am absolutely sure it is zero. Further, many F1, F2, and F3 visa holders themselves require an ITIN for bank accounts.

By the way you two, participation in the above isnt voluntary.

So sorry the pamphlet on ITIN in no way, shape or form means 4.6 million undocumented workers. Not even fing close. You two seemingly forget there are way more reasons for paying taxes without a SSN than undocumented workers -- expressly *why* the ITIN was set up.

So the question is, how many of those 4.6 million are 'legitimate' (i.e. investor types, visa dependents, F-visa holders, etc.)? OONH? Lad? Bueller? Class? I mean that 4.6 million looks scary but it really doesnt mean much of anything when you actually know what it is describing. But since you all brought it up/defend it as 'evidence', why dont you give us *your* expert opinion on it now that we all know what that number is measuring.

As for anecdotal evidence, I guess you suggest I 'stick my head in the sand' on my own experiences, right? Since you are basically saying I am showing 'ignorance' on this (btw -- go fk yourself for that comment), I guess it is far less 'ignorant' to 'ignore' the literally hundreds of real world events that I have seen first hand. Got it.

Literally, are you telling me to ignore and forget everything that has happened? (and by the way, one or two is 'anecdotal', a hundred plus is just a fing tad more, mind you, but you know that....)

To be blunt your comment again steers into the world of not really experiencing the world. You tell me to forget the literally hundred+ actual incidents, all while essentially telling me I'm ignorant. Sounds pretty hypocritical to me. And on top of it you use and/or back a 4.6 million number that has pretty much 'highly attenuated' (diplomatically) real world tie when you actually stop and examine the item for what it actually is.

And, the next time you two want to use the numbers of ITINs as a proxy number for undocumented workers, I suggest you two actually learn what the HELL the thingy is you are using or defending as 'evidence.'

And Lad, tell me, what do I make of the 95+ per cent of the over hundred cases that I have first hand knowledge of? I mean, you are the expert on telling when other people are 'sticking their head in the sand' apparently.....

Seriously, I am posing the exact same question I posed to OONH: tell me how that number is so large and so lopsided since I am so obviously incorrect. Pure conundrum there for me, to be honest....

One answer it that it is the weirdest singular run of incidents in the entire world, which also begs the question 'why the *hell* didnt I buy a powerball ticket a couple of days ago'.

Btw there sure might be pieces of evidence out there. ITINs sure as hell isnt one of them.